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So that high concept switching thing (Act 1 Spoilers)

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So way back in I think episode 2, (maybe 3?), Chris mentioned that the character switching seemed too high concept. So are we going to see what it is in two weeks (about) or was it replaced? If it was cut, what actually was it since my curiosity will never cease until I know. Of course, if we are going to find out soon on our own, just let me know that. Please?

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So way back in I think episode 2, (maybe 3?), Chris mentioned that the character switching seemed too high concept. So are we going to see what it is in two weeks (about) or was it replaced? If it was cut, what actually was it since my curiosity will never cease until I know. Of course, if we are going to find out soon on our own, just let me know that. Please?

I believe actually the concern was about the manner in which the two stories are connected (whatever that is) rather than the switching itself. Whatever it was, it sounded pretty central to the idea, so I imagine that whatever Chris was talking about is in there in some form or other, though of course probably iterated on since those early days.

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So way back in I think episode 2, (maybe 3?), Chris mentioned that the character switching seemed too high concept. So are we going to see what it is in two weeks (about) or was it replaced? If it was cut, what actually was it since my curiosity will never cease until I know. Of course, if we are going to find out soon on our own, just let me know that. Please?

I believe actually the concern was about the manner in which the two stories are connected (whatever that is) rather than the switching itself.

Agreed. I don't think it's the game mechanics issue either. Though if it's how story and mechanics interact, then even a dropped idea would be super interesting. If it's how the stories themselves connect, it's still interesting.

I hate being conflicted about wanting to avoid spoilers myself and wanting to see the iteration itself.

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New post now that the game is out.

I am as much in the dark as ever. Although the connection between them was revealed in the game, I don't really see anything super high concept about it. A fantasy monster that is actually a spaceship is an interesting plot device, but doesn't really seem high concept. I want to see the rest of that meeting as a sidequest even more now.

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Without spoiling anything, the switching is still there and works very well to connect to two protagonists.

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Without spoiling anything, the switching is still there and works very well to connect to two protagonists.
What I meant was what was potentially too high concept? Unless that part got cut (which I still want to know). I know the switching is still there, after playing the game it makes even less sense what the problem was, other than a new player not knowing why there is two characters at first.

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Without spoiling anything, the switching is still there and works very well to connect to two protagonists.
What I meant was what was potentially too high concept? Unless that part got cut (which I still want to know). I know the switching is still there, after playing the game it makes even less sense what the problem was, other than a new player not knowing why there is two characters at first.

yeah i think we posted the last comments the same time lol. i know what you mean and kinda agree. either way i really like the way the switching works now. instead of the two interacting with each others story so to speak it feels like two totally different games. well, until that ending!

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Without spoiling anything, the switching is still there and works very well to connect to two protagonists.
What I meant was what was potentially too high concept? Unless that part got cut (which I still want to know). I know the switching is still there, after playing the game it makes even less sense what the problem was, other than a new player not knowing why there is two characters at first.

Just finished the game. It seems like there's some sort of ouroborus time loop happening. Vella seemingly becomes a computer on Shay's ship in the future (somehow), but someone who seems to be an adult shay shows up in her story. Then his present self comes out of the monster, and she gets trapped inside. And it's not that his spaceship is a monster, because she seems outer space through the windows from inside the monster, so, his universe is contained within mog chothra. And it's not explained how he survived or what happened to him.

....That's high concept? Or did I misread that?

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I thought he was talking about the game design, and I thought he said, "top heavy". Whatever he said, it's pretty clear that he wrong -- Schafes ignored him, didn't he?

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Not entirely sure why people are confused, it seems likely that the thing he was worried might be confusing is to do with the reveal at the end which explains how the worlds are linked, though obviously there are still questions

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I hope we find out at some point what that was all about. chris obviously like ambitious games and has a lot of respect for tim and his abilities. it really took me by surprise that comment. I wonder if something sounded slightly pretentious or like hammered home in the pitch stage. but even so.

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"To me the strongest parts of this by far are the thematic aspects of the two characters in parallel ... especially switching between those I think could be incredibly and I really really cool both in terms of gameplay and aesthetics. The stuff supporting that seems so high concept to me that it might end up being topheavy. Like it just seems like a really.... complicated... thing"

Tim:

"I see that working in my head, it doesn't seem that complicated. I see that as providing a structure actually as to how everything has to behave."

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"To me the strongest parts of this by far are the thematic aspects of the two characters in parallel ... especially switching between those I think could be incredibly and I really really cool both in terms of gameplay and aesthetics. The stuff supporting that seems so high concept to me that it might end up being topheavy. Like it just seems like a really.... complicated... thing"

Tim:

"I see that working in my head, it doesn't seem that complicated. I see that as providing a structure actually as to how everything has to behave."

Hero of the thread! :D

Also, I have apparently been using high concept wrong too (even if Chris wasn't). In the creative writing class I took, we were told that the creativity (as opposed to craft) side of a story had four things, characters, setting, plot and ideas; and that high concept meant the ideas were the most important of the four.

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Vella seemingly becomes a computer on Shay's ship in the future (somehow)
Huh? Where did you get that idea? Did I miss something? Shay's mom said she was sacrificed, but there are tons of women who were...

Still, Vella and Shay's interaction at the end of Act 1 does offer up a lot of interesting possibilities. In that sense it could become more high-concept, but there could also be a very simple explanation.

Another thing to note is, Chris made that comment long ago and we have learned since then that things have been simplified due to budget/time... so perhaps the more high-concept stuff that used to be there is no longer?

Either way, I'm pretty excited to find out! :)

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Huh? Where did you get that idea? Did I miss something? Shay's mom said she was sacrificed, but there are tons of women who were...

yeah that doesnt seem to be vella personality-wise... but who knows. I do wonder i somethings going on with time or time loops...if alex actually was shay who did something in steelbunting long ago, and something happens to vella inside the machine that brings her into the past, that could...possibly...have something to do...with them being each others ancestors... or what not. at least maybe that pitch would cause chris to think it was topheavy. =) seems to me that the two stories just being parallel would not be enough to make him think that.

one clue about time could be that bit about the spaceweaver dude drifting through time or whatever that was.

could also be that alex was in steelbunting with his mog, stole a wife...but got whacked down. and...is both shay and vellas greatgrandfather.

wonder who that witch is, why she is or used to be a witch, and why her age is important...and if shes an outsider or not...

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"To me the strongest parts of this by far are the thematic aspects of the two characters in parallel ... especially switching between those I think could be incredibly and I really really cool both in terms of gameplay and aesthetics. The stuff supporting that seems so high concept to me that it might end up being topheavy. Like it just seems like a really.... complicated... thing"

Tim:

"I see that working in my head, it doesn't seem that complicated. I see that as providing a structure actually as to how everything has to behave."

Told ya! :)

I still have no idea what he was talking about, though.

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I don't see quite what people are confused about here? Tim proposed an idea with two stories that interweave, and Chris reckoned designing that format in game form, where the interweaving can be dictated by the player, would be complicated and difficult.

It turned out not to be in act one as you can just play the entirety of one character followed by the other, which is incidentally what I did as I couldn't find how to switch between them.

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"To me the strongest parts of this by far are the thematic aspects of the two characters in parallel ... especially switching between those I think could be incredibly and I really really cool both in terms of gameplay and aesthetics. The stuff supporting that seems so high concept to me that it might end up being topheavy. Like it just seems like a really.... complicated... thing"

Tim:

"I see that working in my head, it doesn't seem that complicated. I see that as providing a structure actually as to how everything has to behave."

Told ya! :)

I still have no idea what he was talking about, though.

Yes, I wasn't disputing he said topheavy :) He wasn't talking about the gameplay though. He was talking about the 'stuff supporting that'

My spoilery interpretation of what he meant by topheavy thing:

"This whole deal with how the worlds are tied together seems quite complicated and it's such an important hook to the whole of the game that the stuff that it might be a really weird shift towards the latter half of the game, with most of the actual plot happens there, so it's really going to be a lot of story to cram into (at the time what might have been) significantly less than half of the game.'

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Yes, maybe, but I'm wondering if he meant the opposite: The initial hooks might be stronger than the later parts, and so the game might lose track of how they relate to the ending. (In which case he's talking about story.)

I really have no idea, though. It's just incredibly vague!

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All Chris wanted to remove was the central, most important thing, the heart of the game. That's all. The way the two characters connected. I think he thought we'd be making so many concessions to that connection that we would be designing ourselves into a hole, or painting ourselves into a corner, or biting off more than we could chew, or doing all three at once.

I can see his point, but for me, that weird connection between them was more of an inspiration than an obstacle. It was constantly providing new ideas.

So it's not that he was wrong, so much as he was incredibly, horribly wrong.

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I meant I knew he was wrong :)

(Actually, in the context of the documentary I totally believed it was a game design thing he was talking about, it was only when you posted that quote that I thought maybe he was talking about the story.)

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I meant I knew he was wrong :)

(Actually, in the context of the documentary I totally believed it was a game design thing he was talking about, it was only when you posted that quote that I thought maybe he was talking about the story.)

Oh, well anyway, we think pretty similar things. We should do shifts.

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Oh, well anyway, we think pretty similar things. We should do shifts.

Yes, unfortunately we seem to hang on the forums around the same time each day. It's a completely inefficient system we need to improve!

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I can see his point, but for me, that weird connection between them was more of an inspiration than an obstacle. It was constantly providing new ideas.

Also, I totally love that feeling in game making where you have an idea and then it suddenly seems to fall in with all the other ideas you have and generate new ones, and you know it has to be right because it becomes a sort of effortless idea generating machine. I get frustrated when I have an idea for a game but it's not quite at that point yet, I can't quite see where it's leading.

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I found this discussion interesting. I thought that this dialogue between Tim and Greg would make an interesting talking point too:

Near the opening of Episode 5:

Greg: "What I'm still not clear on is, switching back and forth between these stories and how we're going to handle that."

Tim: "Yeah, I've been putting that off"

Greg: "Yeah, well try and think about it. So I'm just wondering then, if I'm here, here and here and I jump back to this then what's the world like? Like, why can't I do this, and what happens that makes me so that I can do this."

Tim: "I don't know yet..."

This makes me think that there's time travel or a circular story concept. Particularly interesting is that Greg says "here, here AND here". 3 heres! Oh man, I love looking way too deep into things...

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