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hipposexxxy

to Steam or not to Steam ? DRM is the question

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@MacCave: On some level you are right - but on some level it is possibly to say that you are wrong. I think you are somewhere on the right site, but you should be at least more polite. [And it doesn't really help if you still complain after someone did what they could to help you. That just seems that if they can't do exactly what you want them to do, they shouldn't even start bothering, because you will still complain either way.]

@MusicallyInspired: On some level you are right - but on some level it is possibly to say that you are wrong. I think you are somewhere on the wrong site, but at least you are polite about it.

The problem is that imo a game that is described for "we get it DRM-free and on Steam" has first of all no clear meaning of time. I think if someone says X and Y, and not saying that one will be later, they should arrive on the same time. So a release schedule should take this into account. And if it is somehow not possibly, then a few reasons would be good. I have no problem that some delays happen for whatever reason. Such things can just happen. But this (initially) wasn't just a delay.

Despite the problem with DRM on Shadowrun Returns, HBS managed to release a DRM-free (though backer-exclusive) version alongside the public Steam Launch. And I don't see any fundamental reason why this should be impossible with Broken Age. And SRR got also split into multiple parts, though how these parts interact for SRR (game+expansion) is different than how Broken Age is organized (part 1+part 2).

While splitting the game in multiple parts makes the whole process more complicated it also doesn't change the fact that Act 1 had public launch. It is somewhat problematic to change the release plan without taking previously made statements into account. And in my eyes "Steam only release of Act 1" and "DRM-free game" are just incompatible with each other. So it would be good to know why that decision was made. [The only "reason" I have heard was that Act 2 deployment will be easier. Yes that is a nice side effect, but from that standpoint it is DF's fault to split the game in the first place.]

Also DF is only a group of humans - and humans make errors. Errors can happen and maybe just nobody caught it somehow (probably because many people who had a chance didn't realized it or had (for them) much more important stuff to do). And if that happened, what should DF do? The only thing they can do is pretty much just fix it ASAP. [Ok, from that standpoint it is probably a bit troublesome that the update seems to imply that it is something DF is nice enough to give us, and not something we should have*. At least I haven't heard any statement that says that this is an error of some kind.]

With the (quite limited) information we have gotten I think it isn't completely fair just to chastise DF. And mostly it doesn't help our cause at all. (On the other hand I would agree that more information would be a really good start to clear such problems.)

We will see how DF will act in the future, but I have a good feeling that they won't do something like this again. If they should do this again (which I really think they won't), then yes I would say my (currently regained) trust in DF is lost (and then most likely unrepairable).

*I'm not saying that this is DF's opinion on it. I think only that the update can be read in that way.

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Indeed they owe me a DRM free version. That was part of the buyers contract at the time of payment. So it doesnt matter at all what DF thinks. They cant change any conditions after that point in time, cause otherwise the buyers contract isnt valid anymore and they have to return the money. Its really simple. There never was any new scenario. It was a buyers contract, that they deliver DRM free when the game is released. and it was released on January 28th. And we still got nothing hat we paid for.

False, false, falsitty false. Also, 'Steam losers'? Please.

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Don't feed the troll. This is the same person who wants DF to go bankrupt because they haven't delivered the DRM version fast enough.

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Indeed they owe me a DRM free version. That was part of the buyers contract at the time of payment. So it doesnt matter at all what DF thinks. They cant change any conditions after that point in time, cause otherwise the buyers contract isnt valid anymore and they have to return the money. Its really simple. There never was any new scenario. It was a buyers contract, that they deliver DRM free when the game is released. and it was released on January 28th. And we still got nothing hat we paid for.

False, false, falsitty false. Also, 'Steam losers'? Please.

Nice bubbling. And k, Steam losers was way to nice for peoples which spend money for getting absolutely nothing. I think morons is the correct term?

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"We will see how DF will act in the future, but I have a good feeling that they won’t do something like this again. If they should do this again (which I really think they won’t), then yes I would say my (currently regained) trust in DF is lost (and then most likely unrepairable)."

Fool me one … shame on you. Fool me twice … shame on me. They betrayed us. Its that simple. The only thing that happened now is, that they realized that they dont get away with their betrayal as easy as they hoped. DF never ever gets money and from anyone i know again.

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The company betrayed us all. K, my fault: You are spending money for getting nothing all the time already at Steam. So its most likely not possible to understand the thoughts of working mind, Steam troll.

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Indeed they owe me a DRM free version. That was part of the buyers contract at the time of payment. So it doesnt matter at all what DF thinks. They cant change any conditions after that point in time, cause otherwise the buyers contract isnt valid anymore and they have to return the money. Its really simple. There never was any new scenario. It was a buyers contract, that they deliver DRM free when the game is released. and it was released on January 28th. And we still got nothing hat we paid for.

False, false, falsitty false. Also, 'Steam losers'? Please.

Nice bubbling. And k, Steam losers was way to nice for peoples which spend money for getting absolutely nothing. I think morons is the correct term?

Sorry, what was that? Having trouble hearing you over this 'nothing' that I'm playing. :)

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"We will see how DF will act in the future, but I have a good feeling that they won’t do something like this again. If they should do this again (which I really think they won’t), then yes I would say my (currently regained) trust in DF is lost (and then most likely unrepairable)."

Fool me one … shame on you. Fool me twice … shame on me. They betrayed us. Its that simple. The only thing that happened now is, that they realized that they dont get away with their betrayal as easy as they hoped. DF never ever gets money and from anyone i know again.

If that would be the common opinion, than DF would have been actually stupid to try to get us a DRM-free version even now...

Because from a rational perspective if you don't even try to care about the company any more, why should they try to do something for you?

I see this more as a error/screw-up. Such things happen, and you can fix them and learn from them. But if people pop up and just say such thing like you do, it doesn't help anyone. And if you say that is naive on my part, then I will only answer that I personally think it is better to be a bit naive than to be so deeply cynical.

And on the part "Indeed they owe me a DRM free version. That was part of the buyers contract at the time of payment.". I'm not even sure if you could do anything legally about it, if there would be no game at all. Kickstarter/Crowdfunding is possible a pretty complicate legal situation.

Also as others said (and I can't argue anything about that), technically even without the old release plan of Act 1 Steam only, you still would get the DRM-free complete game. And DF never did say they wouldn't do that. And on top of that I haven't heard anyone said "all version will release at the same moment". Sure I think it should be the default assumption, but it doesn't make it to something you could argue on legally.

Insulting other peoples also doesn't help anyone to take you serious, at all.

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You got nothing. Read the EULA. Obviously the first time in your life. You think you cant hear me. You will hear me perfectly when Steam cancels your account and you realize that you gave money for getting absolutely nothing. Cause thats what you playing after you account is cancelled. And now think bout the same scenario with any other platofrm. Will I still play my bought (!!) games after GoG is gone? Indeed. Will I still play my games, which i bought at resellers, after thos retail centers are gone? Indeed. Cause I bought them. and all what you paying for is a stupid subscription. with no user rights at all. When Valve thinks that they trash you, you are gone. and you cant do anything bout it. So …. tell me again … what are you playing then?

And dont tell me that this doesnt happen. It happens to every (!) moron which pays for the highest online prices out there at Steam. Cause with every change of the EULA you could either swallow every sh*t they do to yu in his changes or …. everythings gone. The games, your money…. All and forever. So tell me again … isnt this the most stupid economic decision a human can make?

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"We will see how DF will act in the future, but I have a good feeling that they won’t do something like this again. If they should do this again (which I really think they won’t), then yes I would say my (currently regained) trust in DF is lost (and then most likely unrepairable)."

Fool me one … shame on you. Fool me twice … shame on me. They betrayed us. Its that simple. The only thing that happened now is, that they realized that they dont get away with their betrayal as easy as they hoped. DF never ever gets money and from anyone i know again.

If that would be the common opinion, than DF would have been actually stupid to try to get us a DRM-free version even now...

Because from a rational perspective if you don't even try to care about the company any more, why should they try to do something for you?

I see this more as a error/screw-up. Such things happen, and you can fix them and learn from them. But if people pop up and just say such thing like you do, it doesn't help anyone. And if you say that is naive on my part, then I will only answer that I personally think it is better to be a bit naive than to be so deeply cynical.

And on the part "Indeed they owe me a DRM free version. That was part of the buyers contract at the time of payment.". I'm not even sure if you could do anything legally about it, if there would be no game at all. Kickstarter/Crowdfunding is possible a pretty complicate legal situation.

Also as others said (and I can't argue anything about that), technically even without the old release plan of Act 1 Steam only, you still would get the DRM-free complete game. And DF never did say they wouldn't do that. And on top of that I haven't heard anyone said "all version will release at the same moment". Sure I think it should be the default assumption, but it doesn't make it to something you could argue on legally.

Insulting other peoples also doesn't help anyone to take you serious, at all.

You're a good guy. I am sorry if early on in the thread some of my points came across as harsher than I meant. I think we're in a pretty good place now, and I think DF has, historically, been pretty good at learning from errors. I think you're probably right that they just underestimated the response to their decision to delay DRM free Act 1 until later, and it was an error. I think that it's definitely something they will know to take into consideration next time. (I think with the Massive Chalice Kickstarter they've already learned from a lot of mistakes, it's interesting to see how differently it's been handled)

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ChristinaST, a Kickstarter contract is a simply investement contract. Like buyers contract. The only difference is that you cant be sure that the project will be released. But … it is released now.

And dont forget how they handled this betrayal. At first they told as simply their nonense of act 1 an 2 over and over again instead of realizing, that they cant argue that way and trying to change their position. Instead they fought that they could ignore us. And thats the reason why im not supporting them anymore. And DF already had similar desaster. The Cave was released DRM only. Beside that they announced a DRM free version in the future. They didnt realize how to take care of customers. Its a horrible company which simply tries how far they could go, instead of offering customer service.

So lets tak a look at their next release. Then we will see if DF learned anything at all of that betrayal.

KestrelPi, yes, lets wait and see how they treat their new customers. If they really learn from that desaster, then perhas there is some way back.

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You got nothing. Read the EULA. Obviously the first time in your life. You think you cant hear me. You will hear me perfectly when Steam cancels your account and you realize that you gave money for getting absolutely nothing. Cause thats what you playing after you account is cancelled. And now think bout the same scenario with any other platofrm. Will I still play my bought (!!) games after GoG is gone? Indeed. Will I still play my games, which i bought at resellers, after thos retail centers are gone? Indeed. Cause I bought them. and all what you paying for is a stupid subscription. with no user rights at all. When Valve thinks that they trash you, you are gone. and you cant do anything bout it. So …. tell me again … what are you playing then?

Maybe the DRM free version that everyone also gets?

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They owed us a complete final game. Act I is not the complete final game. Your argument is invalid.

This business about whether Steam is worth your money or not is not part of this conversation, indeed, your insults to those that think so are not welcome so keep your opinions to yourself.

If you're not going to support DF anymore then just go away.

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MusicallyInspired, they promised a game. If they dare to deliver just half the game at first, then this isnt any reason at all to even further mistrade their customers by holding back a game which is for everyone else on sale out there.

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KestrelPi, you are the only one out there which got the DRM free version then ;) . And BTW You wont get any DRM free game from Steam at all.

And yes, ChristianST is a smart one. Hes one of the few users here which knows that DRM and therefor Steam means nothing else then customer betrayal. A lesson you still have to learn.

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Aside - It's true, by the way, that there are some games I only have on Steam. Generally, I paid very little for them.

And it's true, that if for some reason Valve decides to stop giving me access to them, I lose them (unless they don't use the DRM, in which case I can just store the download somewhere. Psychonauts is an example of a Steam game I have which if Steam blew up tomorrow, I could still play).

But maybe I'm a grown up who can decide what to do with my money, and maybe I judge that for me, with how I play games, I am content with a small risk that I won't get to play a game at some unspecified point in the future with the large convenience of being able to buy them regularly at sale prices, keep them updated within a single application and the various other features Steam offers, of which there are many.

It might be abhorrent to some, but if I really really care about a game, I'll seek out a DRM free version or a physical copy where possible. But if I just kinda wanna play it, I think that the Steam risk vs value proposition is quite reasonable.

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KestrelPi, you are the only one out there which got the DRM free version then ;) . And BTW You wont get any DRM free game from Steam at all.
Are you being willfully obtuse? The DRM free version comes out in a month (or less!). I will download it at that point. Then I will have my Steam copy, and my DRM free copy.

I will continue to use my Steam copy because it will be kept up to date, except in the unlikely event that a meteor hits the Valve offices or they decide to enact their evil plan to launch every player's games into space.

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You got nothing. Read the EULA. Obviously the first time in your life. You think you cant hear me. You will hear me perfectly when Steam cancels your account and you realize that you gave money for getting absolutely nothing. Cause thats what you playing after you account is cancelled. And now think bout the same scenario with any other platofrm. Will I still play my bought (!!) games after GoG is gone? Indeed. Will I still play my games, which i bought at resellers, after thos retail centers are gone? Indeed. Cause I bought them. and all what you paying for is a stupid subscription. with no user rights at all. When Valve thinks that they trash you, you are gone. and you cant do anything bout it. So …. tell me again … what are you playing then?

And dont tell me that this doesnt happen. It happens to every (!) moron which pays for the highest online prices out there at Steam. Cause with every change of the EULA you could either swallow every sh*t they do to yu in his changes or …. everythings gone. The games, your money…. All and forever. So tell me again … isnt this the most stupid economic decision a human can make?

I loathe DRM/streaming/rental rights/similar stuff myself and will not spend a single cent on it . But that doesn't entitle me to insult others who are fine with that (for whatever reason I might have or they might have).

All such behaviours causes is that it weakens your position (which is mine, too, so that's why I'm angry about it), because any argumentation on that basis just ends in needless flaming. (And that is probably the best case)

@Contract: can you show/point to anywhere where DF said the DRM-free version will be available the moment any non DRM-free version from it will be publicly available?

Or that it will be available for anything other than the complete game?

facts. Which you simply don't have. (Unless you are saying you have made a separate contract with DF)]

@"At first they told as simply their nonense of act 1 an 2 over and over again": When did this happen? The only information on Act 1 (related to Steam/DRM) release is Update 31: "Act 1 Steam only". After that they made two posts in this thread to say they are looking into it and then in Update 35 they said "Will happen, ETA next month", with an comment here that said basically ASAP.

And if you say that the released the Cave DRM-only (which I can't say anything on, also it makes a difference if they said they will release a DRM-free version or not), then following to your own logic you should only blame yourself for the current situation...

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I'd like to not be associated with the ongoing protest as well.

It's true that this should have been set up a bit different and with a tad more distance from Steam, and, yeah, technically, a DRM free version should have been available yesterday. Between getting a DRM free build by September, October or November and getting one in just a few weeks though, I can sure see that difference. It means that we'll still be able to join the ongoing discussion about the game and it means that we can continue watching the documentary in a few weeks as well.

Steam release was preferred, and while there were some reasons of development convenience for it for sure, it shouldn't have been this way. It was, unfortunately, but people have respectfully voiced that they're not satisfied with that, and it's in the process of being ironed out.

Minor hickup.

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They owed us a complete final game. Act I is not the complete final game. Your argument is invalid.

While I don't really agree with maccave (I am pretty much in line with ChristianSt thinking) and especially his tone, the separation in Act I and II was originally *not* on the kickstarter page. There was just a game, when you backed.

It was their decision to split it up, and this decision came after the funding. So, in no way should have negatively impacted (some of) the backers.

In any case, I consider this only a minor mistake from them and not something done with ill intentions, and I'm glad they listen to us and that they're fixing it. My consideration and apreciation for DF is still pretty high.

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I looked for a thread on this question but couldn't find one. I backed at the $100 tier but am having trouble figuring out what I need to do to get my game. I admittedly haven't posted in these forums and I see the game is now out on Steam but I don't know if I'm supposed to already have a download code or what exactly I'm supposed to do to get a download of the game for free. Any help would be appreciated!

EDIT: Never mind. I figured this out.

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PS:

You don't need a humble (bundle) account at all. Check your mail and you can see the page where you can retrieve your keys without logging in and without the neccessity for an account at humble bundle. However until Act 2 arrives you need a Steam account for now. That's true.

However -in general- I don't get this complaining about DRM. I'm on Linux. Look at the open source games. Exception is Super Tux Kart. Open Source doesn't work so well with games and game content. Professional artists, writers and designers don't work for nothing. Professional programmers do. I guess because it's about that code is re-used. And art for a game is art for just one game. Your not building anything that will last. One explanation, but it is how the world works: Open Source games often (not always) look bad and design and gameplay is terrible. (And another reason might be that coding on a project and contributing can be easily done by professional individuals. Code is code. Logic is logic. However: Design is not design. For a game you need a very focused and very professional team, a "company". While a large community is good, (just look at the Linux kernel) making games is not so much compatible with a large community.)

I think it's OK to protect games with DRM, that is: Steam. If you have no internet connection, it just offers you to play offline. You can download and install on any machine. You can set up an account on a friend's PC and play your games there. I really love Steam to have my games available anywhere. Steam is not Microsoft DRM, Steam is not SecuRom or whatever. Technically it works like DRM. But really what is the disadvantage? DRM (like Steam) for games is ok. For music and anything else not. Because I can't just copy my legally bought mp3s on any player. That's why DRM is a bad thing on mp3s. But where are the disadvantages of Steam? I don't get it. Sorry.

Op-Ed:

A case that DRM doesn't do much however:

"people are good (an update on our DRM experiment)" http://2dboy.com/2008/10/09/people-are-good-an-update-on-our-drm-experiment/

"90%" http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/

OT: Also something interesting about pricing, that might suprise you: http://2dboy.com/2011/02/08/ipad-launch/ (I don't know it this works for bigger titles, I guess not.)

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Reading the first comments on page 1.

Steam DRM -- not on my PC!

I guess people saying this have never tried Steam and don't even know how Steam looks and they think of Steam like something of EA's SecuRom.

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First of all: Your statement "However until Act 2 arrives you need a Steam account for now. That’s true." is just wrong. DF has said they have altered they plans and will release a DRM-free Act 1 basically ASAP (most likely this month).

OpenSource and DRM are different things. They are somewhat related (especially on an ideological level). But dragging in OpenSource into a DRM-discussion isn't really helpful.

I think it's OK to protect games with DRM, that is: Steam. If you have no internet connection, it just offers you to play offline. You can download and install on any machine. You can set up an account on a friend's PC and play your games there. I really love Steam to have my games available anywhere. Steam is not Microsoft DRM, Steam is not SecuRom or whatever. Technically it works like DRM. But really what is the disadvantage? DRM (like Steam) for games is ok. For music and anything else not. Because I can't just copy my legally bought mp3s on any player. That's why DRM is a bad thing on mp3s. But where are the disadvantages of Steam? I don't get it. Sorry.

As others have already said in this thread, there are peoples that really have problem with the Steam-DRM: e.g. offline-play doesn't really work for them.

Also the "You can download and install on any machine" has some restrictions to it: you can only download it and play it on machines with the same OS. Wanting a version for a different OS than the machine you have Steam on doesn't work. So I couldn't download my legally bought Broken Age on my Windows-PC where I have Steam installed and move it to my Linux-PC where I don't have Steam to play it there. It would be like you need a PC with a working sound card to download MP3's.

Yes, companies are allowed to use DRM or other things. But in my eyes DRM is something I'm absolutely not OK with. Nobody can force me to buy a PC game only if I also buy a car on top of it. A company can sell a game only on top of a car buy. But I can just skip on it entirely if I don't like that car. The same applies for DRM. I will treat any product with DRM simply as non-existing for me. If there is an awesome ebook that is on the market right now, but it is sold only with crappy DRM like on Amazon? I will not buy it! The author will just miss a seller (or maybe if I'm in the mood (and it is available) I'll buy a dead-tree-version, which has no DRM).

But the links you posted even seem to imply that DRM doesn't do anything useful for the company in question. Other than frustrating people that legally buy their product. And I personally don't like to engage with companies who think that I'm just some sort of criminal that will distribute their product as far as I can.

If that is the case, it would be just better to drop DRM (since DRM isn't free) and just treat paying costumers not like criminals.

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Reading the first comments on page 1.

You'll have to read the entire thread, we were working so hard on it!

Remember, the main counterarguments on page 1 were "it's only the beta" and "you'll have the DRM free full game in three months".

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Just checking... still nothing?

I imagine there won't be anything to announce until after Amnesia Fortnight now (unless it comes in the next 48 hours), but I expect it'll come pretty quickly after that.

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