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hipposexxxy

to Steam or not to Steam ? DRM is the question

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Because really, there is nothing explicitly allowing this particular scenario or prohibiting it.

Not to be that guy, but that was exactly what I told you way back in the original release thread ;)

Yes. They can spin it that way. I wouldn't get a lawyer, I wouldn't demand my money back. But it comes off as stickler-ish, pedantic and all the bad stuff, to everyone who specifically went to this KS because it said "STEAM as well as DRM-free". And typically, you do not want all the bad stuff for some of your backers -- at least not if you want them to back again another time.

The much better thing to do is to do just a little more than you said you would, even if you think you don't have to, and appear as the generous, lovable company that gives out all the good stuff.

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The much better thing to do is to do just a little more than you said you would, even if you think you don't have to, and appear as the generous, lovable company that gives out all the good stuff.

Which I think DF has done.

Fun pills and sleds for us all!

Smiles

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Yea, I think patience is a virtue here. DRM-free builds will be added to Humble pages when Act 2 comes out, and at that time the game will probably arrive on GOG.

I had, and this was a particularly difficult process, acquired most of this patience until DF told me that future installments of the documentary will contain spoilers for part 1, making Steam acceptance a requirement for backers to still enjoy their rewards. :(

1) Steam is DRM (and I will not argue with that)

So how do you wrap your head around games that ship on Steam that are DRM free?

I kind of look at it this way: You've let a fat shepherd with a shaver on your paddock. Whether he shears all of the sheep or only the big ones is of no consequence. The guy's in your kitchen drinking your beer! ;)

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1) Steam is DRM (and I will not argue with that)

Then your post is invalid, you lose any debate, good DAY sir. Requiring a login to download from your servers is not DRM in the slightest, and that's the only requirement inherent to Steam. It provides options to implement more, but it doesn't enforce them.

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Btw, the Steam page of Broken Age indeed gives the release date of January 28th. So there's two weeks of beta, and that's it. After that, the first part is up for regular sale.

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1) Steam is DRM (and I will not argue with that)

Then your post is invalid, you lose any debate, good DAY sir. Requiring a login to download from your servers is not DRM in the slightest, and that's the only requirement inherent to Steam. It provides options to implement more, but it doesn't enforce them.

This is important to note - if no DRM is implemented, you can launch the game independently of Steam. Meaning, you use Steam to download the game and then you can just delete it off your computer and the game will work fine.

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Just an FYI for the people taking issue with the use of Steam - (at least with the Linux version) you can play the game without Steam running in the background. I launched it directly and was able to load the game without any errors. In other words, Steam is being used to deliver the game, but the game itself does not require Steam to play.

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I don't like DRM, but in this case, the discussion is pointless.

The problem with DRM is you don't get to own the game, and therefor there's no assurance you'll still be able to play the game in several years' time.

But that's a long term thing. I can play the game with DRM now, and I'll get a DRM free version in a couple months to enjoy for years after.

I see absolutely no problem with this situation.

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I don't like DRM, but in this case, the discussion is pointless.

The problem with DRM is you don't get to own the game, and therefor there's no assurance you'll still be able to play the game in several years' time.

But that's a long term thing. I can play the game with DRM now, and I'll get a DRM free version in a couple months to enjoy for years after.

I see absolutely no problem with this situation.

There's no DRM. Once you download the game, you do not need Steam to use it. Steam is just the platform by which you download the game.

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There's no DRM. Once you download the game, you do not need Steam to use it. Steam is just the platform by which you download the game.

If this is the case then that's great. I understand that it might not be politic, but if Double Fine were to come right out and say that explicitly it would probably go over pretty well with most of the people upset about DRM.

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Hi,

I'm one of the guys who told about their disappointment on the release post :

I agree, i’m disappointed, i chose to support DRM-free games and stopped using steam for new games I buy. One of the way to do this was kickstarter and all the DRM-free promises.

Now i’m a little disappointed by the fact that depsite all the wait, i won’t be able to play Broken Age until the episode 2 is released. It is a choice from Double Fine, and yes the DRM-free promise in the project was actually the full game but… Learning this the day before the release when nobody never bother to mention this detail is a disappointment. Maybe if i knew this from the start it wouldn’t have been but it is.

Now I feel that DRM-free is still “a detail to make a few hippies happy” even for developpers like DF, and THIS is disappointing.

Anyway, have fun with Broken Age !

but the goal was just to give a feedback to developpers, with respect and calm. We're not screaming and crying while rolled in a foetal position in front of their office, we're just giving feedback respectfully like... what this forum is about.

I think steam is DRM because once i downloaded my game, i can't back it up on a hard drive where i want and install it again on any PCs, now and in the future, without reconnecting to steam like i do with my GOG, or humble games.

That's not an argumentation, that's my personnal opinion, just the way i see how we play.

When developpers announce DRM-free release, it means and has always meant "outside of steam", whether you're thinking steam is DRM or not, that's not the point. We're just saying that we, who chose to not play our games on steam for any reason (it's still not the point), cannot play the first part of the game we backed until the episode 2 is released even after the beta is over, and we can't keep on watching the documentaries.

I'm disappointed that i'll have to wait several month, that we didn't know that until the day before the release, and that we, DRM-free players, seem to be "not as important" for Double Fine, even when one of the strong selling point of most KS projects IS the DRM-free release.

I still love games DF do, i still respect their work and the way they develop, i just give my opinion about the way they release and communicate on Broken Age. They can decide to change their mind when the steam beta/early access is over, or they can stand to their original statement and let us wait, i'm not crying to have my money back or anything, i'm still glad i backed this project but i think that giving our opinion is important, as long as we stay polite and respectful.

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I don't understand how anyone can misunderstand this. The pre-release/beta of Act 1 was always going to be on Steam exclusively. But there are Windows, Mac, and Linux versions of it. The full game release will be DRM free on the Humble Store. This isn't rocket science. It's exactly what you wanted and exactly what you were told.

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I don't understand how anyone can misunderstand this.
Personally, I'm wondering the same thing. The Beta is on Steam, and it ends in two weeks. After that, the game is up for sale. At that point, Steam becomes an issue.

I think it's not that hard to understand. Some people got it, anyway.

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Anyone who buys it solely on Steam is getting a Steam game complete with DRM as usual. Anyone who has backed is getting a DRM-free game plus a Steam key. Why expect anything different?

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The important thing to understand about the position of the people uncomfortable with Steam is that they don't see the post-release version of the game as a beta.

Just to quote what I said in the announcement thread:

I think almost everyone upset about the Steam-only DRM would be would be happy to admit that this is indeed a beta right up until the point that they place the product up for sale on Steam. Even then one could make the case that this is still a beta if it were going up on Steam early access.

It isn’t though. It’s going up on Steam as a full product which they don’t intend to change in any major way from that point forward (according to the last episode of the documentary if I remember correctly). Later Act 2 will be released, effectively in the form of a (very substantial) free DLC.

I can’t imagine a reason why Double Fine couldn’t release a DRM-free version of Act 1 along with its debut on the Steam store or shortly thereafter. It would certainly make a lot of their fans very happy.

Strictly speaking, when they backed the Kickstarter they weren't told anything about how Act 1 was going to be handled because there wasn't going to be an Act 1. The feeling is that Double Fine may be living up to the letter of their promise but not the spirit.

Since I'm concerned that most of my posts on this topic have been read as vitriolic I just want to stress, as igguk did a couple posts up, that most people aren't in a blind rage about this, only disappointed. I'm sure that Double Fine would like to know if some of their fans are feeling a bit disappointed.

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@zaskaggs: Thanks for replying. Admittedly, I was losing the will to ;)

It's really all explained in this thread, guys. If you want to understand the point, I think you can.

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Anyone who buys it solely on Steam is getting a Steam game complete with DRM as usual. Anyone who has backed is getting a DRM-free game plus a Steam key. Why expect anything different?

See, if I back a developer two years ago, I kinda expect to get the game at least the moment it is available to the general public (i.e. someone can buy it in a store).

But now the situation is the following:

1/14/2014: Backer-Beta

1/28/2014: Anybody can buy Act 1 on Steam. But since there is no DRM-free version, I cannot play it. And that is disappointing as hell.

X/XX/XXXX: Release of Act 2 / DRM-free version gets released. So (at least I haven't heard of any) we don't even have any ETA on this.

Never where we told that the DRM-free version gets a major delay.

We get informed 1 day before Beta and two weeks before public release, that there will be no DRM-free Version of Act 1.

And that without any reason why it is happening that way (and imo it was also kinda buried in all that text)

You can't argue that "Act 1 is beta" because it is sold as standalone game that will get a major free content patch down the road.

Hi,

I'm one of the guys who told about their disappointment on the release post :

I agree, i’m disappointed, i chose to support DRM-free games and stopped using steam for new games I buy. One of the way to do this was kickstarter and all the DRM-free promises.

Now i’m a little disappointed by the fact that depsite all the wait, i won’t be able to play Broken Age until the episode 2 is released. It is a choice from Double Fine, and yes the DRM-free promise in the project was actually the full game but… Learning this the day before the release when nobody never bother to mention this detail is a disappointment. Maybe if i knew this from the start it wouldn’t have been but it is.

Now I feel that DRM-free is still “a detail to make a few hippies happy” even for developpers like DF, and THIS is disappointing.

Anyway, have fun with Broken Age !

but the goal was just to give a feedback to developpers, with respect and calm. We're not screaming and crying while rolled in a foetal position in front of their office, we're just giving feedback respectfully like... what this forum is about.

I think steam is DRM because once i downloaded my game, i can't back it up on a hard drive where i want and install it again on any PCs, now and in the future, without reconnecting to steam like i do with my GOG, or humble games.

That's not an argumentation, that's my personnal opinion, just the way i see how we play.

When developpers announce DRM-free release, it means and has always meant "outside of steam", whether you're thinking steam is DRM or not, that's not the point. We're just saying that we, who chose to not play our games on steam for any reason (it's still not the point), cannot play the first part of the game we backed until the episode 2 is released even after the beta is over, and we can't keep on watching the documentaries.

I'm disappointed that i'll have to wait several month, that we didn't know that until the day before the release, and that we, DRM-free players, seem to be "not as important" for Double Fine, even when one of the strong selling point of most KS projects IS the DRM-free release.

I still love games DF do, i still respect their work and the way they develop, i just give my opinion about the way they release and communicate on Broken Age. They can decide to change their mind when the steam beta/early access is over, or they can stand to their original statement and let us wait, i'm not crying to have my money back or anything, i'm still glad i backed this project but i think that giving our opinion is important, as long as we stay polite and respectful.

This. I think I couldn't express my opinion on it any better.

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I think i got it.

If DF views Act 1 as part of beta - then there is this phrase in Kickstarter tier 1 - "exclusive access to beta on Steam", meaning they break promise of beta being exclusive to backers (I personally thought it meant "beta access, exclusive to Steam")

If DF views Act 1 as release - then they should put it as DRM-free version because they promised DRM-free release. Only of course Act 1 can't be viewed as the release because it is not a complete game and not the game we pledged for - just a part of it.

No, you didn't get it. Understand that there are 3 products: The early beta, esclusive for backers on Steam, the Act 1 starting to be sold on Steam january 28th and the full game, which will be available on Steam or via direct link for those who want to download it via - say - torrent.

What has been promised to backers was early beta access through Steam and a full copy of the game, DRM-free. And that, as far as I know, is still happening.

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Some people just need to complain about anything.

In my opinion, delaying the game experience for backers who best understand the Kickstarter spirit and the threat posed to PC games by extremely dominant digital publishers, and preventing them from enjoying further rewards at the time of their release is not just "anything".

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Anyone who buys it solely on Steam is getting a Steam game complete with DRM as usual. Anyone who has backed is getting a DRM-free game plus a Steam key. Why expect anything different?

This is false.

Steam is a distribution service. It has the option for developers to include Steamworks, which is DRM. There is no indication DF is using this.

I don't see complaints about requiring an OS, Direct X, or video card drivers to play the game. Are these DRM as well?

You get the beta on steam as promised.

You get the full game DRM free as promised.

Now in addition, non backers can get Act 1, when complete, via the steam distribution platform and DF is going to use these funds to help complete the entirety of the game.

I understand concerns about spoilers in the documentary, which honestly is the only valid complaint ive seen in all of the misinformed and rambling posts that have infected these forums recently.

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If you don't have anything worthwile to add, why are you even replying? @Lokken

Is this a serious question? Re-read this thread; there is very little worthwhile here considering very few people who are averse to installing steam actually understand what DRM is and what steam is. I simply tried to explain it in a way that would make it easily understandable to myself.

I will shoot you a draft of any of my future posts though, for a yay/nay on if they are worthwhile or not.

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I think i got it.

If DF views Act 1 as part of beta - then there is this phrase in Kickstarter tier 1 - "exclusive access to beta on Steam", meaning they break promise of beta being exclusive to backers (I personally thought it meant "beta access, exclusive to Steam")

If DF views Act 1 as release - then they should put it as DRM-free version because they promised DRM-free release. Only of course Act 1 can't be viewed as the release because it is not a complete game and not the game we pledged for - just a part of it.

No, you didn't get it. Understand that there are 3 products: The early beta, esclusive for backers on Steam, the Act 1 starting to be sold on Steam january 28th and the full game, which will be available on Steam or via direct link for those who want to download it via - say - torrent.

What has been promised to backers was early beta access through Steam and a full copy of the game, DRM-free. And that, as far as I know, is still happening.

Sticking to the letter of the promise but discarding its spirit and disrespecting some of the fans that have supported a game before there was even any sign of a game being there is sure a good way to do things.

If things are staying this way I will think twice before I even consider to back another game from DF again (and than most likely decide not to do so).

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Is this a serious question?

Well, you did respond to a point that has been clarified, pointed out the "full game" thing that has been explained, made a joke, and finished with blanket-calling the posts "misinformed" and "rambling". I'm just asking.

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Anyone who buys it solely on Steam is getting a Steam game complete with DRM as usual. Anyone who has backed is getting a DRM-free game plus a Steam key. Why expect anything different?

This is false.

Steam is a distribution service. It has the option for developers to include Steamworks, which is DRM. There is no indication DF is using this.

I don't see complaints about requiring an OS, Direct X, or video card drivers to play the game. Are these DRM as well?

You get the beta on steam as promised.

You get the full game DRM free as promised.

Now in addition, non backers can get Act 1, when complete, via the steam distribution platform and DF is going to use these funds to help complete the entirety of the game.

I understand concerns about spoilers in the documentary, which honestly is the only valid complaint ive seen in all of the misinformed and rambling posts that have infected these forums recently.

See that - every person that matters says that Steam is DRM. Their ToS does state that you only own subscription rights to the game. Each developer on KS seems to agree that a DRM-free version is a different version than the Steam version, yet people are trying to turn this topic into a Steam vs. non-Steam battle by insisting Steam isn't DRM.

Only because you can circumvent any given type of DRM (which I believe is possible for >95% of all DRM systems in use), doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

Only because you don't think something is DRM because of X, doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

Only because something isn't the most annoying type of DRM, doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

Only because it doesn't trouble you, doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

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Is this a serious question?

Well, you did respond to a point that has been clarified, pointed out the "full game" thing that has been explained, made a joke, and finished with blanket-calling the posts "misinformed" and "rambling". I'm just asking.

Actually, the quote I responded to directly was responded to once, and it wasn't to clarify the DRM inconsistency; so no, it wasn't clarified.

I also see multiple posts in this thread that re-state information, yet I don't see you slapping their wrists.

You can call it a joke, but it wasn't. Those programs are just as much DRM as steam is.

I also did not blanket call the posts anything. I made a comment about all of the misinformed and rambling posts that I've seen, I did not call all posts misinformed and rambling.

The real question here is: Why you've now responded twice, misunderstanding what you're responding to, and more importantly, breaking your own cardinal rule about contributing nothing in the process?

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Because I'm slowly getting fed up explaining the same thing time and time again. Luckily, @Christian has more patience.

Perhaps it's time to take a break.

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Re-read this thread; there is very little worthwhile here considering very few people who are averse to installing steam actually understand what DRM is and what steam is.

Neither would I assume that installing the Steam client on their PC makes people experts on Valve's DRM solutions ... quite the contrary.

Steam is a distribution service. It has the option for developers to include Steamworks, which is DRM. There is no indication DF is using this.

Wasn't Double Fine justifying the Steam exclusivity of Part 1 with Steam DRM somewhere? I have no official source unfortunately, but at least that's what I've heard...

Anyway, what we have here is not an 'innocent until proven guilty' situation. Of Steam's entire 3000+ games catalog, about a hundred games are identified as not being CEG'd to some degree, almost all of these low budget or very aged games, and many of the un-DRM'd games don't even work offline without a bit of digital trickery. Wherever the DRM free revolution starts, it's not on Steam.

So the relevant fact here here is that - at present - there's no indication DF is NOT using the Steam provided DRM solutions for Broken Age.

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Anyone who buys it solely on Steam is getting a Steam game complete with DRM as usual. Anyone who has backed is getting a DRM-free game plus a Steam key. Why expect anything different?

This is false.

Steam is a distribution service. It has the option for developers to include Steamworks, which is DRM. There is no indication DF is using this.

I don't see complaints about requiring an OS, Direct X, or video card drivers to play the game. Are these DRM as well?

You get the beta on steam as promised.

You get the full game DRM free as promised.

Now in addition, non backers can get Act 1, when complete, via the steam distribution platform and DF is going to use these funds to help complete the entirety of the game.

I understand concerns about spoilers in the documentary, which honestly is the only valid complaint ive seen in all of the misinformed and rambling posts that have infected these forums recently.

See that - every person that matters says that Steam is DRM. Their ToS does state that you only own subscription rights to the game. Each developer on KS seems to agree that a DRM-free version is a different version than the Steam version, yet people are trying to turn this topic into a Steam vs. non-Steam battle by insisting Steam isn't DRM.

Only because you can circumvent any given type of DRM (which I believe is possible for >95% of all DRM systems in use), doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

Only because you don't think something is DRM because of X, doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

Only because something isn't the most annoying type of DRM, doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

Only because it doesn't trouble you, doesn't mean it isn't DRM.

Can you please cite where you see that 'every person that matters' says that Steam is DRM?

Are people actually arguing because you can get around DRM or that its not imposing that its not actually DRM? I've not seen these posts.

Only because you think something is DRM because of X, doesn't mean it is DRM.

Only because people you think matter think something is DRM, doesn't mean it is DRM.

You may want to read the ToS/EULA of most computer software. Stating that you only own subscription rights doesn't make what you're installing DRM.

Can you provide an example of a steam game that does not use steamworks that you cannot play without steam? Or that steam prohibits you from starting without it?

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