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hipposexxxy

to Steam or not to Steam ? DRM is the question

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I sympathize that it feels unfair, but the game is there for you to play whenever you want. You can simply remove Steam when you're done. If you still choose to boycott Steam then you are separating yourself from the game, not DF. I personally wouldn't want an Act I-only copy of my game floating around out there no matter how much my backers would feel they're entitled to it. Can you imagine the nightmare in troubleshooting bugs that would be?

"Which version of the game do you have? Which February build was that, the one released on the 12th or the 26th? Which platform? Oh, Linux? Ok then that's different, which quickfix build would that have been as there were two released on that day for Linux? Or is this possibly related to that Linux-only UI bug that cropped up after the quickfix build that we thought we patched and released a day later?"

With Steam they can insure that everyone is using the same version. There's just more control. Control that the game needs right now. I know that the game is not considered beta, but it's also not considered finished either. I wouldn't really want to spend the time hunting bugs through all those rabbit holes when I could be fixing issues much faster and getting on with Act II. Adventure games aren't like other games. They rarely get patch fixes after they are released because they are fixed games with limited pathways due to the more linear nature of following a story. They are without the uncertain possibilities of things like RPG's and multiplayer games which can get muddled up on a daily basis. Then new content gets added and new bugs crop up. Not so with adventures. I can only think of a handful of instances where there were multiple releases with different versions of the game. Usually when an adventure is finished it's done and nobody has to worry about patching the game to fix bugs, because they would have already been ironed out. Due to the very nature of this game being split in two, it's not fair to think of this as a completed product without bugs. And if there are bugs they will need to be fixed. I'd rather have a full complete DRM-free game than half of an unstable one. Act I does seem pretty stable for me, but they could be updating constantly and fixing things that they missed and none of us would even realize it. That bypasses a lot of headaches with dealing with people with different builds all over the map.

Believe me, I understand the animosity towards Steam (a little). But I think we have to be realistic here. Why don't you just give Steam a go? It's on Mac and Linux so it is multi-platform, isn't it? It's what the store page says anyway. If you're worried about playing online there is a working offline mode that functions just fine. I know I'm probably repeating what's been said already, but if you're really that much against Steam then you should be expecting to reap the consequences of the decision to avoid it in this instance, shouldn't you? I just don't see it as realistic to expect Act I to be DRM-free. Or is this all just a matter of principle? Either way I see the issue as being with those deciding not to use Steam than with those who decided to put Act I exclusively on Steam.

But you never know, DF have been known to rescind their choices and change plans. They're awesome like that. Maybe they WILL release a DRM-free version of Act I on the 28th. Who knows? I'd rather they not be split up outside of a controlled environment, but I'm sure it would make many happy, even though it may cause DF headaches and lost time working on Act II. Anyway, I've rambled enough...

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It goes beyond not wanting to use Steam (which isn't a small thing anyway, to use Steam you have to accept their terms and there's no way I can do that).

By not making Act I available DRM-free when it goes on public sale (i.e. Jan 38 onwards), I'm basically told that I, a DRM-free advocate, spent my money to support Steam-exclusivity. This is wrong on so many levels in regard to my beliefs.

On another level, it also sends the message that I'm considered a second-class backer due to my convictions.

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I can't imagine anyone who still plays pc games not having steam. In fact, plenty of indie games premier on steam. For right now, Broken Age is a bit buggy and it needs a service like steam to get updates. Once it's all nice an shiney you'll get your raw .exe so it can be easily uploaded to torrent sites.

FOR NOW??? REALLY??? READ THE THREAD!

(or ya know, at least my last post which is quite thorough and only about 3 posts above yours.)

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE BETA

ps- I play PC games without steam, so your lack of imagination isn't an issue. When PC without steam is not an option, consoles usually are so I'm covered. and yeah, we're totally pissed that we can't upload the torrent to pirate's bay. you really hit it on the nose Sherlock.

Well regardless of your use of capslock and ability to bold the text I also never mentioned a beta.

However, it still needs updates as it is. Right now steam works in terms of hosting bandwidth, providing updates and providing some protection in terms of just letting the game flood to torrents.

(and trust me, there will be a correlation between the release of a raw install file and it being uploaded to torrents.)

And steam works for the majority of people, most other kickstarter games seem to be working with it and if you really need to play Act One right this moment you can make a steam account for no extra hassle. Again, not sure what games get released without steam support these days, I understand not wanting to get into the ecosystem but it seems to be okay for most people.

Still a good compromise would be that when Act one is completely polished and there's some other inexpensive hosting to load it up. For right now, to get it to the most amount of people, steam seems to be working.

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It goes beyond not wanting to use Steam (which isn't a small thing anyway, to use Steam you have to accept their terms and there's no way I can do that).

By not making Act I available DRM-free when it goes on public sale (i.e. Jan 38 onwards), I'm basically told that I, a DRM-free advocate, spent my money to support Steam-exclusivity. This is wrong on so many levels in regard to my beliefs.

On another level, it also sends the message that I'm considered a second-class backer due to my convictions.

May I ask, what issue do you have with Steam's terms of service? And how does that issue convict you enough to not even use Steam temporarily to access Act I before the full DRM-free game is released? After all the Steam-exclusivity is equally as temporary.

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All right. To make a quick general point. If I (or any of the others) say "I am not using steam, the game is on Steam, that is an issue", then I am not(!) looking for answers telling me that it is, in fact, not an issue if I do use steam. That's about as nonsensical an answer as there can be. It's just as helpful as if I had a windows machine, and you told me to install linux.

What I am looking for is others saying "I don't have steam either, I agree". Because that is the point of this thread. It's a way to measure the scope of the problem, and get DF to notice it, in case they want to do something about. That's as helpful a thing to do as any.

So basically, everyone who has steam and is happy is in the wrong place here. If there was a steam thread and someone reported some problem or other, would you consider it reasonable or helpful if I posted in there and said I don't have steam so I don't have that problem? (Feel free to make such a thread by the way, if you want to share with other people how great steam is.)

It's nice that @MusicallyInspired apologised, and it's accepted, but people jumping in here without reading the thread is exactly what I said a page or two ago. Each time someone new posts we go through the cycle again. I guess, basically, what I'd like is to separate at the very least the argument "Is steam good or bad", possibly as well the argument "did DF promise that or not", from the feedback thread "I don't have steam and this is an issue". Perhaps the thread is now somewhat unfortunately titled for that, yeah.

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I have a very strong opinion of Steam as DRM, because it has effected me about as much as anybody who hasn't had Valve actually take their game or games out of an individual person's catalog.

Steam had some sort of DRM in place before its current for of DRM called CEG. Many of the older games in their catalog used the older form of DRM. While they used that form of DRM, you were free to boot straight from the .EXE without being logged in, and running Steam. Many of those titles were considered to be DRM-free.

HOWEVER, Valve has gone and updated an umpteenth vast majority of those old titles and have replaced what was the old DRM with the current CEG DRM. I found this out months back when I went to play some KOTOR 1/2 (and then Civ3) but couldn't because this was long after Steam lost my login info for its buggy offline mode. Doing that was it's single biggest "FU" to me, because basically unless someone deliberately doesn't add CEG to the game, as a customer you're stuck with it.

Now, for a lot of gamers living in fair sized populated areas (usually at least the size of a bigger town with just under 10,000 people) that has access to affordable, reliable high speed internet; there is nothing all that wrong with Steam. Their internet is always on, and given some brief lapses where their internet might go out, offline mode can get them through that period until it gets going again.

However, people like me whom live in a small rural hamlet don't have access to reliable, affordable high speed internet (at home.) There are some options for high speed, but they have high start up costs with equipment, low download limits with large costs per GB for going over those limits. One typical Steam client update on a wireless account would basically cost me about $35 alone because it would take me up the first 3 tiers. Basically, I have to lug my computer, or Xbox into town if I want to hook it up to the internet.

Now if Steam's offline mode worked perfectly fine, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with Origin & Uplay besides the fact that I consider them neccessary evils because they think that DRM stops pirates (whatever.) I have never once not been able to play a game at home that have their DRM tied to those clients. I haven't logged in for months to those clients, and I can still play my games without any real problems.

Steam is different. It's offline mode is buggy. It used to lose my login info after around a month so I couldn't play my games anymore until I took my computer back into town and logged back in again. It's a pain in the butt. Its kicked me out of New Vegas once too when I fell asleep playing it (I fall asleep a lot to games; not just NV.) Then 1 month(ish) became 2 weeks. That's when I hated Steam with a passion. 1 month was bad enough, but no matter what happened due to time available to play games; that was usually enough time to get through a game. 2 weeks on the other hand isn't even close for the most part to get through a fair sized game unless you dedicate a fair chunk of time to it (which I don't have a lot of the time.) Hence, I stopped buying games that had CEG in them on there. That's why when they added CEG to the old games, it was a slap in the face to me and just pissed me off more. I wish they wouldn't do one other thing until they fix it; even if it means having to start a whole new offline mode from scratch. Apparently the 2 week bug has been fixed. I couldn't tell you. I've been playing my Xbox at home instead for the last month and a half. I've stopped buying games from there, period (Steam keys that come with DRM-free versions not included.)

I am anti-Steam because it is the only client that doesn't allow me to play my games whenever I want to at home. Origin and Uplay are practically invisible to me - like what Steam fans with reliable high speed internet say about Steam. However to me, that stupid dark gray box that tells me it can't find my login info so I can't play the games I bought just screams at me to my face.

I understand why companies want to think that adding DRM seems to make them think they're doing something to combat piracy. I just wish they wouldn't tie it into the ONLY major one with a buggy offline mode so it doesn't work for a lot of us who can't get high speed internet (or mind waiting a day or so for dial up to finish an update that Valve forces on you.) Origin doesn't have the market place, or market share that Steam has, but man, they are alternative options and it can't be that hard to implement the separate DRMs for each client, rather than make you have a Steam account even if you bought it on Uplay for instance.

With all that being said, nothing beats just being able to download a game on to a flash drive, and taking it home so I can install it there. Double Fine really shouldn't make Act 1 Steam exclusive, IMO. It's an unnecessary disservice to some.

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It's nice that @MusicallyInspired apologised, and it's accepted, but people jumping in here without reading the thread is exactly what I said a page or two ago. Each time someone new posts we go through the cycle again. I guess, basically, what I'd like is to separate at the very least the argument "Is steam good or bad", possibly as well the argument "did DF promise that or not", from the feedback thread "I don't have steam and this is an issue". Perhaps the thread is now somewhat unfortunately titled for that, yeah.

you're right enigma, the discussion at least has hashed out what needs to be addressed more specifically. perhaps a new thread about "DF backer promises / I don't have steam and this is an issue because..."

tho I think those things were things I highlighted pretty specifically in the opening post, the title doesn't reflect those concerns necessarily. Maybe that's why not one admin gives any damns about this thread.

Well regardless of your use of capslock and ability to bold the text I also never mentioned a beta.

However, it still needs updates as it is. Right now steam works in terms of hosting bandwidth, providing updates and providing some protection in terms of just letting the game flood to torrents.

(and trust me, there will be a correlation between the release of a raw install file and it being uploaded to torrents.)

And steam works for the majority of people, most other kickstarter games seem to be working with it and if you really need to play Act One right this moment you can make a steam account for no extra hassle. Again, not sure what games get released without steam support these days, I understand not wanting to get into the ecosystem but it seems to be okay for most people.

Still a good compromise would be that when Act one is completely polished and there's some other inexpensive hosting to load it up. For right now, to get it to the most amount of people, steam seems to be working.

Well regardless of you not saying the word beta, every time you talk about "right now", or "as it is", you're talking about the beta period which is not being contested. Incidentally you did it again in your defense of how you weren't talking about the beta. More than once. See the last line of what you wrote if you don't remember. And I use caps and bold as reading aids for everyone who decides to skim the thread and post like they know what they're responding to.....not gonna name names here ;)

On another level, it also sends the message that I'm considered a second-class backer due to my convictions.

This.

If you still choose to boycott Steam then you are separating yourself from the game, not DF. I personally wouldn't want an Act I-only copy of my game floating around out there no matter how much my backers would feel they're entitled to it. Can you imagine the nightmare in troubleshooting bugs that would be?

no doubt. but it's a nightmare of their own creation. why should any segment of the backers be the ones to shoulder the burden unwillingly? Many have already expressed that they would not have backed at all if there was a hint of even temporary Steam exclusivity once the game went on sale. this is a bait and switch, even if it wasn't intended as such.

I know that the game is not considered beta, but it's also not considered finished either.

Well, technically Act one is considered a beta for now, but once it's on sale to the public in the marketplace (not the steam early access realm of the unfinished) Act one will be considered finished. By their own admission, this is why they have chosen to release it in this new manner with Act 2 to follow as a free update to the game purchase. They are not selling the public a beta.

But you never know, DF have been known to rescind their choices and change plans. They're awesome like that. Maybe they WILL release a DRM-free version of Act I on the 28th.

Greg knows. So does Remo. They've both said that's not the plan in no uncertain terms. I'm trying to help them see why that is not a good political strategy given that it seems to ghetto-ize the anti-drm / anti-steam backers who didn't sign up for this new plan DF has devised. I'm only doing this because you're right, and they do change plans, and respond to feedback like awesome people should.

ALSO - Thank you Babaganoosh13 for providing us with at least one real world situation that isn't based on loving or hating steam as a matter of principle. He is not alone. Guaranteed.

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Steam is a distribution service. It has the option for developers to include Steamworks, which is DRM. There is no indication DF is using this.

On Linux, libsteam_api.so is installed. Below are some of the functions that library exports:

00006b34 T SteamUserStats

000090b4 T SteamGameServer

00006ac6 T SteamUser

00006b08 T SteamMatchmaking

00006adc T SteamFriends

These functions match functionality described in this page about SteamWorks: https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api

Also see http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewreply/316471/

So technically I think the game ships with DRM but it does not seem to be doing any DRM (or if it is I am not sure how).

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[Moved from http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/12105/]

Hiho,

I was absolutely stoked to finally get my hands at Broken Age. I enjoyed the documentary very much and you really had my heart and mind. But then I had to find that I need to get in bed with Steam to get anything for the money I spend on a indie-game/drm-bs-free/retro-adventure experience? That's basically punching me simultaneously in the face, stomach and other body parts that shall not be named.

Steam and distribution platforms like it are the worst way for consumers to get games (ok, maybe streaming is even worse...). One day, Valve might stumble and fall (remember "PlaysForSure" and "Games for Windows" or Interplay, Sun Microsystems, Lucas Arts and other big companies that aren't anymore?). Or they might terminate your always revocable usage licenses for any legal or licensing reason. My big problem with DRM-systems like that is, that I depend on some third party to give me permission to install and run software that I bought, or in this case, funded. And their terms of use are designed to leave me without any legal options if something does not work out. Hello? I helped (admittedly in a very, very small way) to make this game possible, but it shall be up to Valve to decide, if I'm allowed to download and run it or not. Seeing a KS-funded game to rely solely on this way of distribution for its "Beta test", which actually is the first of two parts, strikes me as a Bad Idea. Also, if I do not go along, I must discontinue watching the docs, because they won't be spoiler-free anymore. Awesome!

Sorry, if that comes across too harsh, but it sucks hard. If I had known, I would not have funded the game.

Hoping for a DRM-free download (Humble Store, Good Old Games?) soon.

Regards,

Chris

P.S.: I actually expected on raving in my first forum post about how awesome and grand the game was. Now look at this. So very sad...

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I think steam is DRM because once i downloaded my game, i can't back it up on a hard drive where i want and install it again on any PCs, now and in the future, without reconnecting to steam like i do with my GOG, or humble games.

That's not an argumentation, that's my personnal opinion, just the way i see how we play.

I downloaded the game using Steam on my Linux machine. As a test, I copied the game to my wife's Linux machine, disconnected her from the internet and I was able to launch the game. So using your definition Steam is not DRM.

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Is this seriously a 5 page thread? It's on Steam to deploy patches since, this is not shipping code. Deploying separate DRM free versions would cost more and be more pointless work.

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So what is stopping you from playing it right now apart from your self-inflicted restrictions?

You do know that technically, not jumping in a tub full of manure is a "self inflicted restriction" as well?

But, if you'd really like an answer that hasn't been discussed at length in this thread, well, let's see... where to begin... how about...

It's pretty awesome using google analytics to watch our backer moving through the game in real time :)

Yeaahhhh... "awesome".

Since when is the "kickstarter spirit" mean you get some raw .exe right out of the gate?

No such assumption was communicated from my side. I only maintained that flinging yourself into the soft arms of the biggest game publisher to ever rule the PC market doesn't exactly embody the independence advocated as the main reason for backer support.

Also, you know how many games I've bought at retail (back when people bought pc games at retail.) that basically boiled down to getting a steam key.

You have my sympathy. It's an outrageous mishap that happened to many.

I can't imagine anyone who still plays pc games not having steam.

You have successfully identified the industry's problem.

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@ALPHATT, I'm sorry, but the reason it's got 5 pages is that constantly, people like you post in here asking if this is seriously a (2, 3, 4, 5)-page thread, without even bothering to read the first page. No one is talking about the beta.

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Ok, then tell me HOW I get to install my game in the following situation:

I have my Windows PC I use for gaming, which doesn't have any sort Internet connection.

I have another PC with Linux I use to go online.

I can move any amount of Data between those two, through an external drive/disc.

How would I get my Steam-Game onto my Windows PC?

(If the answer is that I need to go online with it or that I need another Windows PC for it or any kind of Shenanigans for making that work - then YES, Steam is DRM).

Alone the fact that I need Steam at one point to install the game means it is DRM. It is not only a distribution tool to get the files I need to make it work.

I am too lazy to actually test out a solution for you, but below are 2 possible solutions:

1. Install a Linux VM on the Windows PC and copy the game from the Linux PC to the Windows PC.

2. Install Wine on the Linux machine so that you can download the Windows version of the game and then copy that to the Windows PC.

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Is this seriously a 5 page thread? It's on Steam to deploy patches since, this is not shipping code. Deploying separate DRM free versions would cost more and be more pointless work.

yes. please. everyone, read at least page 1 or, my personal favorite, page 4 before "helping".

Page 4 highlights include an apology from someone who originally, like yourself, thought this was a stupid discussion, as well as Babaganoosh13 providing us with at least one real world situation that isn’t based on loving or hating steam as a matter of principle.

Go read, we'll wait.

and @wagner17 - that may in fact help to remedy one person's issue here, but it's been illustrated that there are a variety of issues that stem from the steam exclusivity plan.

again. No one is talking about the beta period (which ends the moment the game goes on sale to the public)

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@wagner17 - that may in fact help to remedy one person's issue here, but it's been illustrated that there are a variety of issues that stem from the steam exclusivity plan.

I thought the main objection in the thread is that people thought they needed Steam to play the game? I'm curious, what are the other issues with the Steam exclusivity plan?

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I think steam is DRM because once i downloaded my game, i can't back it up on a hard drive where i want and install it again on any PCs, now and in the future, without reconnecting to steam like i do with my GOG, or humble games.

That's not an argumentation, that's my personnal opinion, just the way i see how we play.

I downloaded the game using Steam on my Linux machine. As a test, I copied the game to my wife's Linux machine, disconnected her from the internet and I was able to launch the game. So using your definition Steam is not DRM.

So your solution to play the game i backed as a windows DRM-free game is to install linux and copy the installation folder somewhere else (which seems like a workaround exception more than an official way to do things) ? Oh yes, steam is so easy to use, why do we resist ? :D

Seriously, this is going in circles for pages, you won't convince us that we're wrong not to use steam, it's just our choice and we adress concerns to developpers...

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So your solution to play the game i backed as a windows DRM-free game is to install linux and copy the installation folder somewhere else (which seems like a workaround exception more than an official way to do things) ? Oh yes, steam is so easy to use, why do we resist ? :D

Seriously, this is going in circles for pages, you won't convince us that we're wrong not to use steam, it's just our choice and we adress concerns to developpers...

Nobody is going to convince you because it's your belief that Steam should not be used, and it's impossible to argue with belief. All that can be done is prove to you that Steam isn't DRM, and even the more contrived examples you offer can be overcome.

It's perfectly fine to argue that it's inconvenient for you, due to some specific circumstances or the way the software is implemented. It's perfectly fine to say you don't like the optional DRM features. It's perfectly fine to say that you personally want a DRM-free installer, because it's easier for you that way. It's not wrong to not use Steam any more than it's wrong not to use Linux (and in my personal experience Linux was a lot more hassle than Steam). It's just that it's your personal decision, and shouldn't be framed as something which it isn't.

It's just that people should stop that "Steam is DRM" nonsense. It's not only wrong but it hurts the DRM-free movement, because it becomes "common knowledge" and even some developers believe this nonsense (I ran into some), and therefore don't make any attempt to make sure their game runs DRM-free under Steam. Steam won't die any time soon, and it's growing stronger by the day. If you care about DRM-free, don't hurt Steam's ability to deliver DRM-free games by claiming it doesn't exist.

And I do understand the frustration of people who hate Steam. Telling DF that you're frustrated is fine. Making exaggerated claims about Steam isn't.

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@ET3D : i could reply that "Steam is not DRM" is your belief, i already explained why i think it is DRM on page 3... I don't know what i can add that have not been said on previous pages...

To be honest, i never said "steam shouldn't be used", steam users are happy with this model and good for them, everyone can play the way he likes. we chose to not play on Steam, and it's our choice.

I know steam has advantages (price of games, easy library management, community...) and if you're happy with it, go, knock yourself out.

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Ok, then tell me HOW I get to install my game in the following situation:

I have my Windows PC I use for gaming, which doesn't have any sort Internet connection.

I have another PC with Linux I use to go online.

I can move any amount of Data between those two, through an external drive/disc.

How would I get my Steam-Game onto my Windows PC?

(If the answer is that I need to go online with it or that I need another Windows PC for it or any kind of Shenanigans for making that work - then YES, Steam is DRM).

Alone the fact that I need Steam at one point to install the game means it is DRM. It is not only a distribution tool to get the files I need to make it work.

I am too lazy to actually test out a solution for you, but below are 2 possible solutions:

1. Install a Linux VM on the Windows PC and copy the game from the Linux PC to the Windows PC.

2. Install Wine on the Linux machine so that you can download the Windows version of the game and then copy that to the Windows PC.

Thanks for illustrating the point that Steam is DRM and that any kind of DRM can be circumvented! [/sarcasm]

If I need to use Wine or a VM, the next step you could say that ANY and ALL games in existence are multi-platform because it is possibly to just use the right VM/Emulator to play them on your target platform.

The next answer will possible be to just go to some pirating site and organizing the game there?

To reiterate: This isn't because I couldn't play the Game right now if I really needed to. [in fact I could probably play any game you named if I needed to. I would perhaps need to buy some new hardware, use a different OS, use pirated versions, etc...]

This is about that a game I supported because it is DRM-free doesn't care about providing a DRM-free alternative, while it has public release.

And to people who won't stop saying that Act 1 is a Beta: Even Tim Schafer and Double Fine do say the following on Twitter:

"Play BA now? Or wait for Act 2?" I would play it now, actually, because there are big story spoilers that will be hard to avoid until pt. 2

But I can't do it, because there isn't any DRM-free version planned until Act 2 is released.

Regret missing the Backer Boat? #BrokenAge is available for pre-order, out in two weeks! http://store.steampowered.com/app/232790/

So the game will release in two weeks! But as a Steam-only Game! Oh wait - I paid for a DRM-free version? Sucks to care about something....

DISCLAIMER:

I'm not saying this to spite DF or anybody - I said it the way I did because I have the feeling that without bold(er) language some people just don't understand the problem we are having here.

I will probably be soon write an Email directly at the DoubleFine-Support team on this topic, despite I think they have more enough to do (with peoples having trouble with their Humble Bundle Email etc... [bTW, why I don't see ANYONE saying to those people it is their fault*, and every time some people asking about a DRM-free version there countless people jumping in saying in I should just stop it? (* I'm not saying they should be people doing that, since I don't think it is their fault - but why do I need to argue about whether it is my fault or not?)]).

I am pleased with all DF did so far and the content they (and especially 2PP) provided for us - but if this doesn't get resolved, I quite likely will not support DF again in the future (despite even having enjoyed earlier Games. I even bought the Amnesia Fortnight Bundle for the documentary despite not being able to play any of the prototypes because they are Windows-only).

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You can't possibly misunderstand the issue after reading this ^

Then again, @Christian has to have written a post like that four or five times by now, so what do I know.

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It's quite easy, the current situations sucks due to a number of reasons, if they want to fix it in a reasonable way they'll have to offer the final act 1 DRM free (f.e. via the Humble Bundle site) once it will be ready. If they'll do so then there isn't much to complain about (Steam is a unlucky decision for some of us but it was written in their tier descriptions), apart from that it's barefaced tracking personal data the way they do (right way would have been: making it an option in the settings, deactivating it per default, letting the user decide if he wants to participate, asking him gently if he wants to support them).

If they won't do it, then in my opinion they've broken their promise because they only afterwards came up with the idea to split the game into two parts and whilst a substantial part of the game is finished already (fearing, some say it's the bigger part) and which they are selling too, you otherwise would have to wait for months to get the game you helped to fund as a backer. There isn't much you can do about if they won't go this route (without going through all the often senseless lawyer hassle) but you might want to keep this in mind for the next projects they want to get funded/sell, that's your power as a consumer.

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So you're annoyed non-backers will get to play it before you?

Good news: non-backers who don't want to install Steam also won't be able to play it.

Those who backed for the iOS and Android versions have to wait for part 2 as well, you're not alone.

It sucks you guys don't want to play the game for ideological reasons, but who knows, maybe they'll release a Humble version once they're happy with the final Act 1 build.

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So your solution to play the game i backed as a windows DRM-free game is to install linux and copy the installation folder somewhere else (which seems like a workaround exception more than an official way to do things) ? Oh yes, steam is so easy to use, why do we resist ? :D

Seriously, this is going in circles for pages, you won't convince us that we're wrong not to use steam, it's just our choice and we adress concerns to developpers...

Nobody is going to convince you because it's your belief that Steam should not be used, and it's impossible to argue with belief. All that can be done is prove to you that Steam isn't DRM, and even the more contrived examples you offer can be overcome.

It's perfectly fine to argue that it's inconvenient for you, due to some specific circumstances or the way the software is implemented. It's perfectly fine to say you don't like the optional DRM features. It's perfectly fine to say that you personally want a DRM-free installer, because it's easier for you that way. It's not wrong to not use Steam any more than it's wrong not to use Linux (and in my personal experience Linux was a lot more hassle than Steam). It's just that it's your personal decision, and shouldn't be framed as something which it isn't.

It's just that people should stop that "Steam is DRM" nonsense. It's not only wrong but it hurts the DRM-free movement, because it becomes "common knowledge" and even some developers believe this nonsense (I ran into some), and therefore don't make any attempt to make sure their game runs DRM-free under Steam. Steam won't die any time soon, and it's growing stronger by the day. If you care about DRM-free, don't hurt Steam's ability to deliver DRM-free games by claiming it doesn't exist.

And I do understand the frustration of people who hate Steam. Telling DF that you're frustrated is fine. Making exaggerated claims about Steam isn't.

See the problem is that you don't want to see (or you don't want to believe) that using Steam itself is DRM. As others people pointed out I can't just grab my Linux-online PC using Steam there to download my game and use it on my Windows-offline PC. You need to just hope that the moved version will work on your other system. And one of the worst parts is that Steam doesn't even tell me if it will work or not. I (or others) need to test it first.

If I could just use ANY platform with Steam, download the files I need, move the files to ANY (possibly other) target platform (that had never contact with Steam) - then it would be DRM-free.

But guess what? Steam doesn't work that way!

Only because there are Games that doesn't require Steam anymore after you installed them, doesn't change the fact to you NEED Steam to install them.

And before you start arguing: "But you always need something (i.e. certain OS, some drivers,...)."

Yes, I need something - but that is my platform! The game was advertised as "DRM-free for PC (aka Windows), Mac and Linux" and NOT as "DRM-free for PC-Steam, Mac-Steam, Linux-Steam".

But anyway - unfortunately I think the next time I back a video game Kickstarter, because of the things that happened with DF/Broken Age HBS/Shadowrun Returns, I think the next time I will insist that the project creator will answer the following questionnaire:

Dear Project Creator. Unfortunately it seams that it is not quite clear what a "DRM-free" Game is. So before I can finally back your project please answer the following questions, or I can't support your fine project:

1) Does "DRM-free" game mean, that I will get a DRM-free version to play for the intended platforms? YES / NO

2) Does "DRM-free" game mean, that there will be a public available DRM-free version of the game (or standalone parts of the game) to buy alongside* any non-DRM-free (e.g. Steam) version you will make available for public purchase? YES / NO

*alongside doesn't mean that it has to be available the exact same instant, but means that you make effort to release it the same time.

If there are unfortunately reasonable delays for certain versions that is not good, but problems can arise and that is understandable.

But in that case please be honest with us and announce any delays as early as possible and with the reason why it got delayed.

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So you're annoyed non-backers will get to play it before you?

Good news: non-backers who don't want to install Steam also won't be able to play it.

Those who backed for the iOS and Android versions have to wait for part 2 as well, you're not alone.

It sucks you guys don't want to play the game for ideological reasons, but who knows, maybe they'll release a Humble version once they're happy with the final Act 1 build.

I'm not sure what was said in regards to iOS/Android (as I personally don't care that much about mobile gaming) and the only information I could find without digging deep was the pledge text and KS FAQ - and that doesn't contain any words about mobile platforms.

If DF said they release the mobile version alongside the PC version and you have already bought it (I don't know whether there where any pledges/presale for mobile platforms) - then imo yes, you would have your full right to complain why you don't get it alongside with the public Steam launch.

But (as others like igguk have said) this isn't about why people on Steam can play it before me. This is about why I can't play alongside the public launch. Never before there was any words that any versions we have pledged for will be late - or as in this case - are planed to never to be released!!

@others (like hipposexxxy and enigma): Thanks for trying to keep this as polite as possible. I think that some of the posts I made are probably a bit too much on the non-polite site for my personal taste - but I can't just calmly reiterate the same points over and over (and over) again for people who like posting that I have no right to be upset without taking time to understand the problem and just saying I should grow up and don't ruin their fun with my non-existing problems - and I just can't let such ignorant posts stand unanswered. So thanks for trying to calming us all down a bit.

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Well regardless of you not saying the word beta, every time you talk about "right now", or "as it is", you're talking about the beta period which is not being contested. Incidentally you did it again in your defense of how you weren't talking about the beta. More than once. See the last line of what you wrote if you don't remember. And I use caps and bold as reading aids for everyone who decides to skim the thread and post like they know what they're responding to.....not gonna name names here ;)

Wait, so if i'm not talking about a beta... I am still accusing people of talking about a beta because.. reasons... b-beta?

Games can have updates even if they're out of beta but what does it matter what things actually are.

Here let me give you what you want.

BETABETABETABETA .... wait hold on BETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETA

There happy? I'm all up on beta now.

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Indeed, the real problem is that drm-free is pushed back, to an unspecified period when act2 will be released. Which period may vary from 3 months to who knows how much, depending on DF's previous account on delays. These means, that people, having pledged for a drm-free release, whose money have been gladly taken by DF, 2 years ago, won't play the game as they were supposed at day 1. An worst than that, there were be people who, will buy the game now, after seeing the outcome of the kickstarter project, after the game has been reviewed extensively, and they know exactly what they buy, with no risk; And those people will enjoy the game, before those poor backers, who took all the risk of funding a project, not even in the phase of design at the moment they gave their money, backing it just based on an idea and the promises given. So if this does not really sucks, then what does?

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Well regardless of you not saying the word beta, every time you talk about "right now", or "as it is", you're talking about the beta period which is not being contested. Incidentally you did it again in your defense of how you weren't talking about the beta. More than once. See the last line of what you wrote if you don't remember. And I use caps and bold as reading aids for everyone who decides to skim the thread and post like they know what they're responding to.....not gonna name names here ;)

Wait, so if i'm not talking about a beta... I am still accusing people of talking about a beta because.. reasons... b-beta?

Games can have updates even if they're out of beta but what does it matter what things actually are.

Here let me give you what you want.

BETABETABETABETA .... wait hold on BETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETABETA

There happy? I'm all up on beta now.

Hell yeah, a very mature post you did there.

With you saying that "as long as there are updates to be made it is reasonable to have no DRM-free game" would mean that even in two years we couldn't complain about not getting the DRM-free version, if they would release some minor patches every other month ....

And those people will enjoy the game, before those poor backers, who took all the risk of funding a project, not even in the phase of design at the moment they gave their money, backing it just based on an idea and the promises given.

If they want a DRM free copy they will not enjoy the game before backers that want a DRM free copy.

Same difference.

That is the next problem - there is neither a public available DRM-free version nor a DRM-free version available for backers.

If the news would be "Act 1 will be Linux-only, Windows/Mac will available with Act 2". I think NOBODY would argue with people complaining about that. (And I certainly wouldn't say "Oh yeah, it is certainly your fault for not using Linux!!!1111oneone")

But if I care about DRM-free games I just have to have this sort of bullshit.

Edit: @Greco: Thanks for demonstrating that there are at least some people who can understand that there is a problem.

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But anyway - unfortunately I think the next time I back a video game Kickstarter, because of the things that happened with DF/Broken Age HBS/Shadowrun Returns, I think the next time I will insist that the project creator will answer the following questionnaire:

Dear Project Creator. Unfortunately it seams that it is not quite clear what a "DRM-free" Game is. So before I can final back your project please answer the following questions, or I can't support your fine project:

...

Does it have to be Yes or No questions? Because Kickstarter/Steam shenannigans have turned REALLY complex these days.

I'll make another attempt, but I'm sure you guys could even add to my own list. :(

Feel free to add to, use and/or distribute otherwise. ;)

Dear crowd funding project creator,

you are presently asking fans of yourself, your company, the people it consists of and your game idea to supply funds meant to help you in creating a PC game.

I'm happy that you're trying to attempt this path to escape the usual chains of the market, including the influence of publishers/distributors especially. As the PC games market sadly is in acute danger of falling into the hands of one single digital game distributor, I would ask you to consider and communicate the ideology of your campaign in that respect very carefully.

Many game crowd funding campaigns have unfortunately seen developers going back on their word or ignoring the spirit their campaign undeniably had beforehand. That is the reason why I'd like you to answer the following questions before I would consider backing your campaign. Some of them are intrusive and would never be answered by a game developer who does not rely on crowd funds, and I apologize for this necessity.

(1) Will you deliver DRM free versions of the game to backers as well as regular customers?

(2) How exactly do you intend to deliver the DRM free versions of your game to backers?

(3) How are the DRM free files retrieved and what kind of files are we talking about?

(4) Via which digital game publishing platforms besides "Steam" are you committed to publish your game, and in what stage are the necessary negotiations?

(5) Do you intend to release all versions and parts of your game, including patches and only with the possible exception of an early beta version, at the same time to all backers as well as regular customers? If not, please elaborate on the reasons.

(6) What negotiations with Valve have you already performed prior to starting the crowd funding campaign and what were the results? If you, as an indie developer, are already offering "Steam" keys in your tiers even without nomination through the 'Greenlight' customer survey, please elaborate on the peculiarity in detail. Some potential backers might be of the opinion that an indie developer who already receives publishing privileges by Valve does not need crowd funded money to boot.

(7) Do you intend to buy "Steam" keys for backers with the funds gained through the campaign, and if so, what was Valve's offer (which lump sum exactly for a bulk purchase of how many keys)? If Valve decided to host your backers' games without direct payment in return, please elaborate in detail on what other form(s) of compensation they receive from you, including those forms you as well as your publishing partner perceive as incidental.

That's more of a 'full disclosure' than any documentary. ;)

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But anyway - unfortunately I think the next time I back a video game Kickstarter, because of the things that happened with DF/Broken Age HBS/Shadowrun Returns, I think the next time I will insist that the project creator will answer the following questionnaire:

Dear Project Creator. Unfortunately it seams that it is not quite clear what a "DRM-free" Game is. So before I can final back your project please answer the following questions, or I can't support your fine project:

...

Does it have to be Yes or No questions? Because Kickstarter/Steam shenannigans have turned REALLY complex these days.

I'll make another attempt, but I'm sure you guys could even add to my own list. :(

Feel free to add to, use and/or distribute otherwise. ;)

Dear crowd funding project creator,

you are presently asking fans of yourself, your company, the people it consists of and your game idea to supply funds meant to help you in creating a PC game.

I'm happy that you're trying to attempt this path to escape the usual chains of the market, including the influence of publishers/distributors especially. As the PC games market sadly is in acute danger of falling into the hands of one single digital game distributor, I would ask you to consider and communicate the ideology of your campaign in that respect very carefully.

Many game crowd funding campaigns have unfortunately seen developers going back on their word or ignoring the spirit their campaign undeniably had beforehand. That is the reason why I'd like you to answer the following questions before I would consider backing your campaign. Some of them are intrusive and would never be answered by a game developer who does not rely on crowd funds, and I apologize for this necessity.

(1) Will you deliver DRM free versions of the game to backers as well as regular customers?

(2) How exactly do you intend to deliver the DRM free versions of your game to backers?

(3) How are the DRM free files retrieved and what kind of files are we talking about?

(4) Via which digital game publishing platforms besides "Steam" are you committed to publish your game, and in what stage are the necessary negotiations?

(5) Do you intend to release all versions and parts of your game, including patches and only with the possible exception of an early beta version, at the same time to all backers as well as regular customers? If not, please elaborate on the reasons.

(6) What negotiations with Valve have you already performed prior to starting the crowd funding campaign and what were the results? If you, as an indie developer, are already offering "Steam" keys in your tiers even without nomination through the 'Greenlight' customer survey, please elaborate on the peculiarity in detail. Some potential backers might be of the opinion that an indie developer who already receives publishing privileges by Valve does not need crowd funded money to boot.

(7) Do you intend to buy "Steam" keys for backers with the funds gained through the campaign, and if so, what was Valve's offer (which lump sum exactly for a bulk purchase of how many keys)? If Valve decided to host your backers' games without direct payment in return, please elaborate in detail on what other form(s) of compensation they receive from you, including those forms you as well as your publishing partner perceive as incidental.

That's more of a 'full disclosure' than any documentary. ;)

That seems to cover a bit more (I personally would like to boil it down to as few YES/NO questions as possible - just to make it really simple [and to prevent any "kinda this, kinda that, I don't know, we will see"-answers]) - but it is sad I have even to think about asking such questions int the first place :(

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