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hipposexxxy

to Steam or not to Steam ? DRM is the question

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but it is sad I have even to think about asking such questions int the first place :(

Agreed, to the fullest.

Another sad thing is that this is hardly a list of questions that covers everything. There is still ample trust in the developer that very basic things suggested, yet not explicitly said in the Kickstarter, will still hold true eventually. I mean, we'd only need to look at the HBS desaster and would have to add the question: "Are you sure you even possess the necessary legal rights to do something like that?".

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no doubt. but it’s a nightmare of their own creation. why should any segment of the backers be the ones to shoulder the burden unwillingly? Many have already expressed that they would not have backed at all if there was a hint of even temporary Steam exclusivity once the game went on sale. this is a bait and switch, even if it wasn’t intended as such.

But there was. It's right there in the Kickstarter rewards.

Pledge $15 or more

The finished game in all of its awesome glory DRM free on PC, Mac, and Linux, or via Steam for PC and Mac, exclusive access to the Beta on Steam, access to the video series, and access the private discussion community.

Yes, it referenced the beta, but I would still call that a hint of temporary Steam exclusivity.

That said, I can understand the need for DRM-free for people in instances without stable or acceptable internet connections. Also, however, Doug Lombardi of Valve (I think it was him) has gone on record to say that Steam's offline mode needs fixing and should be abolished, but there's a lot of framework in place that would need to be dissolved first (that's what the whole clientregistry.blob file is about, it's a temporary setting that emulates being connected online temporarily or something). He said eventually it would be removed and there would be a real offline mode. But that was announced a while ago and there's been no word since.

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Meanwhile, it has been pirated already.

"Fun" how pirates can play it while I can't.

Pirates: 1 - Legitimate Customers: 0

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It's not even close to cost effective to constantly build, QA, and release new versions of a DRM-free executable. The game is still not 100% polished and bug-free, and that would cost them a LOT more money than it's worth, just because a few crybabies can't be bothered to open Steam for a couple hours.

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That said, I can understand the need for DRM-free for people in instances without stable or acceptable internet connections. Also, however, Doug Lombardi of Valve (I think it was him) has gone on record to say that Steam's offline mode needs fixing and should be abolished, but there's a lot of framework in place that would need to be dissolved first (that's what the whole clientregistry.blob file is about, it's a temporary setting that emulates being connected online temporarily or something). He said eventually it would be removed and there would be a real offline mode. But that was announced a while ago and there's been no word since.

At least on Linux, you do not need Steam to play the game. I tested this out on a machine without an internet connection that never had Steam installed.

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At least on Linux, you do not need Steam to play the game. I tested this out on a machine without an internet connection that never had Steam installed.

Sadly, not the case for Windows version. You have to use cracked steam_api.dll

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You know what?

I've backed/supported/payed for a game two years before its release - for a game I'm told that it will be released for my platform.

Two weeks before the public release of the first part, I get told - without any reason - that the first part will not released for my platform. I get told that I need to wait until the second part is finished (however long that takes) and the first part will only be released for other platforms.

I state my disappointment about it / enquiry about why that is so / say that I'm upset about it [all in a reasonable tone].

And what to I get for that?

People, who belittle my position.

People, who say I should stop whining/crying about why I don't get what I have paid for.

People, who say I should get over with whatever problems I have and just go use another platform because the platform they use is far superior than mine anyway.

AND I'M JUST SICK OF THAT!

You are at least as involved in ruining this game for me than the decision DF made. And I have at least the hope that that decision might even change. But if I get involved with people like you I would like to just dismiss this whole gaming community as a group of shitheads - despite knowing that that normally isn't the case.

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I'm an entitled baby that doesn't understand how expensive game development is or any of the completely logical reasons why they would delay multi-platform releases until the game is actually finished. I expect special treatment because of my own choices and inability to understand what I am purchasing, and will lash out at anyone who tells me I am being unreasonable.

I agree with this completely.

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@Christian, take a break, I'm taking over. I've got some free time right now ;)

You helped me out with the same problem two pages ago, it's only fair.

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just because a few crybabies can't be bothered to open Steam for a couple hours.

Hey, thanks for coming in here to insult people, we couldn't have survived without you, seriously. Actually, I had received credible reports that you were somewhere else sobbing that Broken Age has turned out to be "not a game". But, hey, everything's all right for resourceful discussion if the first half dropped into the definition for you somehow.

I’m an entitled baby that doesn’t understand how expensive game development is or any of the completely logical reasons why they would delay multi-platform releases until the game is actually finished. I expect special treatment because of my own choices and inability to understand what I am purchasing, and will lash out at anyone who tells me I am being unreasonable.

Neither would a sensible person who "understands how expensive game development is" just nod to a six million dollar 2D adventure game. Nor are we talking about a delay in multi-platform releases. We're just talking about the PC, and unfortunately about timed Steam exclusivity. As to the vehemently perceived faults in character and intelligence in some principled people, well, thanks for your opinion and goodbye.

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This should be

"Pirates: 1 - Me: 0"

Because I am a customer and I can play it. As can you. You just don't want to.

If the Kickstarter was just for a Steam key then I never would have backed it. I backed because I was promised a DRM free version of the game. And right now the only official way to play is to use Steam, and the only way to play DRM free is to pirate.

That doesn't seem wrong to you?

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will not released for my platform

Out of curiosity, did you expect Act 1 to be on Android or something? I was sure the problem few very vocal backers seem to have was with DRM, not platforms...

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You know what?

I've backed/supported/payed for a game two years before its release - for a game I'm told that it will be released for my platform.

Two weeks before the public release of the first part, I get told - without any reason - that the first part will not released for my platform. I get told that I need to wait until the second part is finished (however long that takes) and the first part will only be released for other platforms.

I state my disappointment about it / enquiry about why that is so / say that I'm upset about it [all in a reasonable tone].

And what to I get for that?

People, who belittle my position.

People, who say I should stop whining/crying about why I don't get what I have paid for.

People, who say I should get over with whatever problems I have and just go use another platform because the platform they use is far superior than mine anyway.

AND I'M JUST SICK OF THAT!

You are at least as involved in ruining this game for me than the decision DF made. And I have at least the hope that that decision might even change. But if I get involved with people like you I would like to just dismiss this whole gaming community as a group of shitheads - despite knowing that that normally isn't the case.

What is your platform? As far as I can tell it's being released on Linux, Mac, and Windows, according to the Steam store page. How is it not going to be on your platform? Or are you considering Steam a "separate platform" from DRM-free? That's a ridiculous notion. I can understand that it would be difficult for you to be happy over the fact that it's not DRM-free if you have internet connection issues, but if you just don't want to use Steam then I'm sorry but that's your decision and your own fault. You keep saying we don't seem to understand your point of view, but I'm afraid you just don't seem to understand ours, and quite honestly it's just as frustrating. DRM-free is not a "platform" just as Steam isn't one either. I hope you're not basing your entire argument on whether DF said they were releasing on "all platforms" as meaning "DRM-Free" in addition to Steam. That's nonsensical. They meant Mac, Linux, and Windows. Or have they explicitly stated that Act I would be DRM-free along with Steam? If there's a quote that says that please show me and I'll drop the matter.

I understand that because of your issues with Steam you cannot play the game and I sympathize and even consider this a legitimate complaint, but not if the reasons are that DF promised a DRM-free Act I, because I've read no such thing. They promised a DRM-free full game. As far as I'm concerned they've lived up to their word so far since the beginning of the Kickstarter and nothing that was said in this thread proves otherwise to me. Complaining that DF lied or changed their minds and turned their backs on you is different than complaining that there is no DRM-free release for Act I (that they never promised) and being denied a request for one. The latter is legitimate, the former is not. Again, unless there is some quote that can prove otherwise. If so I'll join your side. As it stands, of course I'm going to come in here and defend DF against people that are making incorrect claims against them.

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@SHODANFreeman, is there anything you hope to gain by insulting users? You didn't read the thread, as your first post clearly shows (the point is not the beta, but the time when the game will be sold on steam), and as I mentioned before, what is the point in telling us we can't/shouldn't/mustn't issue what we think is a legitimate concern?

No one is even asking you to understand this -- but if you don't, and also don't want to, then I don't see quite what you want to discuss here.

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DRM RUINED MY LIFE AND MURDERED MY FAMILY! ALSO I LOVE TELLTALE AND THEIR MOVIES ARE THE BEST GAMES EVER!

No one has any right to complain that the beta is Steam only. No one has any right to complain that the first part is Steam only. DRM-free was promised solely for the full, polished, finished game. This has been clear for quite a while now, and your misunderstanding of it is no excuse to scream and kick about how you're supposedly being mistreated. Grow up.

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What is your platform? As far as I can tell it's being released on Linux, Mac, and Windows, according to the Steam store page.

If it's fair to state that no PC gamer today would be without Steam, you'd have to conclude that PC gaming today IS Steam. I have heard statements to precisely that effect from myriads of Steam users.

What logically follows is that 'DRM free' must be a different platform, quod erat demonstrandum. ;)

DRM-free was promised solely for the full, polished, finished game.

"polished" ... "finished"... wait a minute, weren't these exactly the words Tim used to describe Part One?

This has been clear for quite a while now, and your misunderstanding of it is no excuse to scream and kick about how you're supposedly being mistreated..

"scream" ... "kick" ... sorry, man, but the aggression here is all yours from A to Z. As you're obviously trying hardest in this thread not to understand anyone's position, I do wonder what you're doing here besides typing up unfunny strawman arguments.

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will not released for my platform

Out of curiosity, did you expect Act 1 to be on Android or something? I was sure the problem few very vocal backers seem to have was with DRM, not platforms...

I said to my self that I didn't want to replay any further (and I don't reply to a certain post I couldn't replay without dragging this thread down further the rabbit hole), but I'm not certain of you missed me reiterating my point or if you missed something else (and your post doesn't seem to indicate any malice).

with platform I meant DRM-free (Linux) [That it is Linux doesn't change anything on that discussion]. I used the term platform to get my point better across. Saying that I should just pick a DRM version is just like saying "Just use the PS3" to someone asking why they didn't receive their promised Xbox version.

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You keep saying we don't seem to understand your point of view, but I'm afraid you just don't seem to understand ours, and quite honestly it's just as frustrating.

MI, the thing you are missing here is that we don't have to understand you. Not here. Not in this thread. This thread is a "Act I is Steam-only, I think that's an issue. Can you change that?"-thread, meant as feedback for DF.

So if you come in here to discuss things, that -- that notion -- is the basis. We aren't going to meet halfway, because anything you tell us will always amount to "this isn't an issue because ..." Yes. It is an issue. That's the point of the thread. It's fine if you disagree, but in no way is it reasonable to tell us any sort of "grow up already"-variant.

Compare: If there was a Steam thread, and someone posted a Steam-related problem to discuss, and I came in saying "Don't have Steam, everything's fine, stop whinging", would you consider that reasonable or helpful? And exactly that is what you (general you) are doing here.

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No. Because you will get your DRM free version. You were promised a DRM free version with Steam-exclusive early access. The latter just started.

Everything seems in order to me.

Ok, right now it is the promised Steam exclusive beta. Fine. But come January 28th I should expect to get my DRM-free copy, no? Because my other option, as a backer, is to dodge spoilers for the next several months and to stop watching the documentary. Or install some client I have no interest in using and was told I wouldn't have to use.

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I completely agree.

How the mighty have fallen.

I see no counter arguments here worthy of or meant for debate, so I'm out for now until they emerge.

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As you're obviously trying hardest in this thread not to understand anyone's position, I do wonder what you're doing here besides typing up unfunny strawman arguments.

Your position is "I want something that was never promised to me, and I'm therefore unhappy that I haven't gotten it yet."

This is not logical.

If Double Fine had said "The DRM-free version is canceled", I'd be right there with you, telling them it's a load of crap. Only that's not the case. Nor has it ever been. Nor will it be.

We are getting what was promised. Asking them to spend thousands of dollars building and QAing builds every couple weeks for a DRM-free version is not only ridiculously impractical, it's incredibly self-centered. There's a big reason Steam was chosen as the early access platform, and it's been stated numerous times by Double Fine themselves why it was chosen. You just don't like the truth.

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Your position is "I want something that was never promised to me, and I'm therefore unhappy that I haven't gotten it yet."

No.

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What is your platform? As far as I can tell it's being released on Linux, Mac, and Windows, according to the Steam store page.

If it's fair to state that no PC gamer today would be without Steam, you'd have to conclude that PC gaming today IS Steam. I have heard statements to precisely that effect from myriads of Steam users.

What logically follows is that 'DRM free' must be a different platform, quod erat demonstrandum. ;)

I never said that no PC gamer today is without Steam. It certainly doesn't mean Steam is its own platform either. Come on, now, you have got to admit this argument is just grasping at straws. I'm sure DF never included Steam and "not-Steam" as completely independent platforms in their announcement of which platforms Act I would be out for. They were talking about OS's.

DRM-free was promised solely for the full, polished, finished game.

"polished" ... "finished"... wait a minute, weren't these exactly the words Tim used to describe Part One?

No. Act I is not the finished game. You're grasping at straws and twisting his words around to mean something different. Let's be honest here.

You keep saying we don't seem to understand your point of view, but I'm afraid you just don't seem to understand ours, and quite honestly it's just as frustrating.

MI, the thing you are missing here is that we don't have to understand you. Not here. Not in this thread. This thread is a "Act I is Steam-only, I think that's an issue. Can you change that?"-thread, meant as feedback for DF.

So if you come in here to discuss things, that -- that notion -- is the basis. We aren't going to meet halfway, because anything you tell us will always amount to "this isn't an issue because ..." Yes. It is an issue. That's the point of the thread. It's fine if you disagree, but in no way is it reasonable to tell us any sort of "grow up already"-variant.

Compare: If there was a Steam thread, and someone posted a Steam-related problem to discuss, and I came in saying "Don't have Steam, everything's fine, stop whinging", would you consider that reasonable or helpful? And exactly that is what you (general you) are doing here.

If you had read my past few posts you would have found that I explicitly stated that I understand this position. I'm speaking against the people who are somehow manipulating circumstances and public statements to justify their claims that DF lied to us. They did not. Sure it sucks that Act I is not DRM-free for you guys. I sympathize, but they never promised such a thing. I don't agree that this claim is legitimate and using it against DF is wrong.

If you don't believe this then I'm not talking to you. Perhaps the people that DO shouldn't be in this thread because they don't share your opinion on the matter.

No. Because you will get your DRM free version. You were promised a DRM free version with Steam-exclusive early access. The latter just started.

Everything seems in order to me.

Ok, right now it is the promised Steam exclusive beta. Fine. But come January 28th I should expect to get my DRM-free copy, no? Because my other option, as a backer, is to dodge spoilers for the next several months and to stop watching the documentary. Or install some client I have no interest in using and was told I wouldn't have to use.

We were promised a DRM-free version of the final full game. Both acts. No way around that. Yes, it sucks that DF isn't going to release Act I DRM-free for you (I feel like a broken record), but they are well within their rights, and indeed are staying true to their earlier promises, by waiting until the final game is released to provide DRM-free versions.

EDIT: Sorry, fixed some quote nesting issues.

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@SHODANFreeman;

One more time. No one is talking about the beta (=="QAing builds every couple weeks"). The game is going to be sold, as a finished, episodic game, in two weeks. At that point, the beta is over. There aren't going to be lots of fixes. This is emphasised by the point that DF does NOT, in fact, use the "early access" anymore. Look at the Steam page of Broken Age. It's a game as any other.

Additionally, yes, if you go strictly by the letters, the "entire game" will be DRM-free. There is nothing said about a DRM-free Act I on KS. The obvious REASON for that is that when the KS was made, no one knew there would be an Act I. So what we are asking, very politely, is if DF could honour the spirit of their promise ("...on Steam, as well as DRM-free"), as it was clearly the intention to ship the non-Steam version of whatever was made alongside the Steam version. And the reason for that is that we backed this game to support DRM-free and Steam-free games, and had the KS said "two part game, first part Steam-only, second part sometime eventually", we wouldn't have done that. But again, it couldn't say that, since no one knew the would be two parts.

And finally, everything I just wrote is explained more than once in this thread, so you could have discovered it simply by reading at least the first page.

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with platform I meant DRM-free (Linux) [That it is Linux doesn't change anything on that discussion]. I used the term platform to get my point better across. Saying that I should just pick a DRM version is just like saying "Just use the PS3" to someone asking why they didn't receive their promised Xbox version.

Ok, but didn't wagner17 just say that Linux build is in fact DRM-free?

And using wrong words to describe your situation definitely doesn't help to get your point across, it only makes it even harder to take you seriously. Your comparisons are way off the mark, you physically can't use Ps3 version when you only have Xbox - that is indeed different platform, or use Linux version on Windows - that would require completely different set of skills than what typical Windows user has.

You, on the other hand, simply refuse to install freely available version of the game for your platform because it is not DRM-free. Except it actually is. Which admittedly sounds much less dramatic than your interpretation of this situation.

On a more constructive note, as a Linux user it would certainly take you like 20-30 minutes to create fresh bootable flash drive with clean ubuntu, boot from it, install steam, download broken age, and copy it to your hd/ssd. Certainly would take less time than continuing to argue on these forums, especially since you take any criticism of your position very hard.

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@SHODANFreeman;

One more time. No one is talking about the beta (=="QAing builds every couple weeks"). The game is going to be sold, as a finished, episodic game, in two weeks. At that point, the beta is over. There aren't going to be lots of fixes. This is emphasised by the point that DF does NOT, in fact, use the "early access" anymore. Look at the Steam page of Broken Age. It's a game as any other.

Additionally, yes, if you go strictly by the letters, the "entire game" will be DRM-free. There is nothing said about a DRM-free Act I on KS. The obvious REASON for that is that when the KS was made, no one knew there would be an Act I. So what we are asking, very politely, is if DF could honour the spirit of their promise ("...on Steam, as well as DRM-free"), as it was clearly the intention to ship the non-Steam version of whatever was made alongside the Steam version. And the reason for that is that we backed this game to support DRM-free and Steam-free games, and had the KS said "two part game, first part Steam-only, second part sometime eventually", we wouldn't have done that. But again, it couldn't say that, since no one knew the would be two parts.

And finally, everything I just wrote is explained more than once in this thread, so you could have discovered it simply by reading at least the first page.

It's expensive and wastes resources to do several DRM releases, regardless of if it's technically a beta or not. They will invariably encounter bugs in the game for many months to come, and there will be tiny tweaks and adjustments made all the way until both parts of the game are complete and released. It is not a financially sound prospect to invest effort in a pointless DRM-free release. This is the same reason that Telltale has almost never updated a single episode of a single game unless it had game-breaking bugs. It costs a lot of time and resources to do so.

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@SHODANFreeman;

One more time. No one is talking about the beta (=="QAing builds every couple weeks"). The game is going to be sold, as a finished, episodic game, in two weeks. At that point, the beta is over. There aren't going to be lots of fixes. This is emphasised by the point that DF does NOT, in fact, use the "early access" anymore. Look at the Steam page of Broken Age. It's a game as any other.

Additionally, yes, if you go strictly by the letters, the "entire game" will be DRM-free. There is nothing said about a DRM-free Act I on KS. The obvious REASON for that is that when the KS was made, no one knew there would be an Act I. So what we are asking, very politely, is if DF could honour the spirit of their promise ("...on Steam, as well as DRM-free"), as it was clearly the intention to ship the non-Steam version of whatever was made alongside the Steam version. And the reason for that is that we backed this game to support DRM-free and Steam-free games, and had the KS said "two part game, first part Steam-only, second part sometime eventually", we wouldn't have done that. But again, it couldn't say that, since no one knew the would be two parts.

And finally, everything I just wrote is explained more than once in this thread, so you could have discovered it simply by reading at least the first page.

At least you're asking politely, others are absolutely disgusted claiming that they were lied to and that they're not being respected with some crazy notions of being "second-rate backers". I think DF had a tough call to make considering the circumstances and they went with the best route they could take to get the full game out as soon as possible, while still staying true to their original word.

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@SHODANFreeman

Fixing bugs and providing updates on reasonable and regular basis is business as usual. If you have low software standards you might work the way you've described it though. Time and effort also depends on the platforms you're trying to support. For PC/Mobile: reading bugreports, (reproduction), fixing/workarounding, testing, updating, testing, done, reiterate/do something different. If you have to support tricky distribution channels you push cumulated updates on a less frequent basis. No reason not to support a DRM free platform from a certain point on.

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