Jump to content
Double Fine Action Forums
Sign in to follow this  
leosarma

Iam really disappointed because I expected an old school pc adventure and no mobile app like game with a short story and not a full plot

Recommended Posts

I have to take off my gloves and say, in general I wished I have liked the game but it is not what I expected. The main disappointment isn't only that this game is obviously designed for devices with touch screen, like ipads or mobile phones. The main issue here is that the game is not what the kickstarter campaign promised.

"For fans of adventure games, this is a chance to prove that there is still a large demand out there for a unique medium that inspired so many of us."

There are so many things that says clearly this is not a classic old-school adventure thing. Not at all what I expected from someone that lived all the great SCUM classics. I thought at least the basics would be there:

1) an universe with a traveling system:

Every single adventure game of "yorn" had an universe so complex and connected that you would need a traveling system of some kind. Full Throttle had the roads; The Dig, the tram system; Day of the tentacle, you could travel in time; Indiana Jones, travel by plane; Monkey Island, not only you could take a vessel, each and every island had a map of it own; Grim Fandango had a hot rod go the different places... In Broken Age we can... change the scenery? No connections? Interactions? Map?

Even Tim's new games like Brutal Legend have traveling system, and it's not a classic adventure.

A traveling system requires some backtracking. And a good adventure game needs backtracking. Otherwise you end up with a straight forward game that you can finish in hours. Which bring me to the second basic point.

2) length:

I remember spending weeks trying to finish an adventure game. And even today with walkthroughs all over the internet and knowing almost all the puzzles by heart, it takes me more than a couple of days to complete a game like Full Throttle or Monkey Island.

Do you remember the dueling system on Monkey Island? Not only we had to spend hours collecting all the fighting lingo, we also had the figure out how to use it in a total different context in the final duel. And I had to do it not knowing english very well. By the way, I learned english mostly by playing adventure games.

Anyway, it took me not even five hours to complete the game. Five hours? Is this a demo? Back in the days, these adventure games all released demos, and it took an afternoon to finish it and get us hooked and anxious for the release date.

Is act 1 a demo for act 2? Will act 2 be as short as this?

Just to be sure, I've begun playing Sam and Max again, and after 5 hours I haven't unlock more than 2 locations on the map.

BA act 1 is too short.

3) different interactions:

I don't care if it is a verb list, a right button with a flaming panel of icons, a scrolling system...

Part of the fun of playing an adventure game is trying absurd stuff and seeing how the characters would react. For that we need more options.

Combining different objects and being able to examine is not enough.

When Ben tried to talk (an opened mouth icon) with an object, he would say something like: "I don't want to put my tongue on this". We could punch, look, examine, talk, kick, and it was all contextual: "you know what might look better on your nose? THE BAR". That's what you get using your hand with the bartender in Full Throttle:

Contextual don't have to be lazy. It can be creative and really fun.

BA took the point and click concept all too literal. I want to click, but give me options, and a whole bunch of funny remarks when I don't get it right away.

4) characters:

I am not fully pleased with the characters. But I not satisfied with the characters voices. The voices don't match the character. I get the famous people sell games. But do they have to sound like themselves?

Does a fat bearded on a cloud sound like a doped rockstar? Does Jack Black always have to sound like Jack Black?

Take this for an example:

For those who never played Full Throttle, that was Ripburger, and his voice came from Mark Hamill.

Don't get me wrong. Jack Black is a great actor. So is Will Wheaton. But a lumberjack shouldn't sound like a nerd playing board games (kids, play more board games, they are fun too). Give some voice to your character.

I know this are only two more distinctive examples, but I've felt the voices didn't match most of the times. Eiijah Wood can give so much more to his character.

Throughout the game I felt that the characters or weren't fully developed or didn't have time to fully participate in the story. There was so much that could have been explored in the characters. They were used as set decoration only. Their stories didn't match the main story. A woodsman with fear of trees? A family joining a cult in the clouds? A wannabe mayor trying to impress the city? A snake on a tree with a trombone?

Vella's family was good. The dialogue tree showed they were well developed, but they were used only as a set piece.

5) plot:

BA have a story that I can be resumed in one or two sentences. Where's the plot? Act 2?

Again. Is this a demo for act 2?

Go play one of the classics and see what it is a great plot with different stories sewed together.

6) puzzles:

In my opinion the only puzzles in the game were the eggs puzzle and the radiation suit puzzle. The rest is just point and click or combine objects. Even those puzzles weren't all the best. They were too right in your face obvious.

A descent puzzle should involve different scenarios, characters and objects, and a really good puzzle should surprise or do/be something unexpected.

In the days of yore, I remember having to correctly assemble a space turtle skeleton, placing an explosive canister I've found somewhere else, revive the thing cracking an egg crystal that I've created using a machine I've had to fix using parts scattered all over the game, just so a giant monster would eat it and be blown so I could go the next area. That's a puzzle. That took time, and consulting friends, and hours of sleep hoping I could somehow dream with the solution.

Forgetting to take an object from a particular screen isn't a puzzle.

7) death:

Not a basic per se but sometimes you have to die, rewind, and try again.

When you know you can go so wrong that you will die, we take more care and even get more empathy for the character. We can also explore the different ending scenarios for that situation.

Vella could have died in the end to show we are not getting it right. The monster will wait eternally to be killed the proper way? Really? Death is too politically incorrect? She is facing a life threatening situation. It's only logical that she may die sometimes.

I definitely did not expected that after the whole kickstarter/old-school adventure thing. I know I got it right.

This is not a classic adventure game. I hope act 2 is.

Nice engine. Now give us an adventure game.

(thank you senior_hombre for helping me find my words)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding point 7, I think it's a good thing to be given the option of trying something else right away, rather than having the character die, show a game over screen, select load game, get to the point where you died and retry once more each time you get it wrong... Although, yeah, maybe there should be a limit, like that time when Guybrush had to hold his breath underwater (okay, that was more like an easter egg, but still).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it's rather easy (evident by the fact I've completed Vella's story without trouble) and the interface is simplified compared to the adventures of old.

But that said, I played Full Throttle loaded onto my Wii about half a year ago. Completed it in 2 hours (but it did skip the travel and derby events because of lack of support in scummvm).

And in my 1 hour commute from work home I played around halfway through Day of the Tentacle on my phone. So yeah, adventure games have been short before, but there's usually been more stuff to confound players and stump them for a long time.

I haven't completed Monkey island 2, but I seem to recall the commentary for it mentioning something about wanting the game to be at least x hours, by way of making sure you had to spend a long time travelling from place to place. Which is something which rather bothered me about adventure games. Time spent walking back and forth and back again, listening to the same comments when trying various ideas, that was something this game didn't make aggravating for me.

As for death...that wasn't really possible in Day of the Tentacle, or Sam & Max. Or Full throttle (sure you could get knocked off your bike), or The Dig. I think it was possible to die in Monkey Island 1 if you didn't solve the rather simple puzzle under the world.

So far I've been happy with Broken Age. I can understand why some are disappointed though, and for reason. Short, yes sure. Easy, maybe a bit too. Simplified UI? Definitely, though that just removes some of the aggravation of not getting the puzzle because you pressed Open instead of Push. Yes it felt like a game made for tablet. But at least for me, the aim of old adventure games for me was always the dialogue, the world, the comments when examining things. The puzzles were sometimes satisfying, but at the same time it could take away enjoyment of a game when you couldn't solve a puzzle because you missed a few pixels worth of item, or you hadn't spent hours clicking each inventory item on every other item in the game, walking back and forth.

Classic adventure game? No. The good things of the classic genre distilled and sadly a bit simplified? Yes. More interactable items would've been nice. Their existence would've increased puzzle difficulty, and given more items to have quirky comments about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Regarding point 7, I think it's a good thing to be given the option of trying something else right away, rather than having the character die, show a game over screen, select load game, get to the point where you died and retry once more each time you get it wrong... Although, yeah, maybe there should be a limit, like that time when Guybrush had to hold his breath underwater (okay, that was more like an easter egg, but still).

You can just try again from where you are or load a previous save game. Sometimes you die and you're not sure if you have died because you did something wrong or because you don't have everything you need to survive.

If you only progress in the game if you have fulfilled a certain requirement the game gets too obvious. Let me die and hint what is wrong.

That's not a rule. Sometimes the scene can just reset so you can try again. If I am not mistaken the last puzzle on Full Throttle is like this. It has a time limit and if you fail you just have to try again. The scene automatically resets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1) an universe with a traveling system:

Every single adventure game of "yorn" had an universe so complex and connected that you would need a traveling system of some kind. Full Throttle had the roads; The Dig, the tram system; Day of the tentacle, you could travel in time; Indiana Jones, travel by plane; Monkey Island, not only you could take a vessel, each and every island had a map of it own; Grim Fandango had a hot rod go the different places... In Broken Age we can... change the scenery? No connections? Interactions? Map?

Even Tim's new games like Brutal Legend have traveling system, and it's not a classic adventure.

A traveling system requires some backtracking. And a good adventure game needs backtracking. Otherwise you end up with a straight forward game that you can finish in hours. Which bring me to the second basic point.

Maniac Mansion took place in one single house.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do this thread and the other thread have basically the same title? :\

It's like they were written by the same person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But that said, I played Full Throttle loaded onto my Wii about half a year ago. Completed it in 2 hours (but it did skip the travel and derby events because of lack of support in scummvm).

And in my 1 hour commute from work home I played around halfway through Day of the Tentacle on my phone. So yeah, adventure games have been short before, but there's usually been more stuff to confound players and stump them for a long time.

OK. It is possible to speed run an adventure game. But where is the fun in that? Why would I want to skip every dialog and cut scene if the stories are what make a great adventure game?

As for death...that wasn't really possible in Day of the Tentacle, or Sam & Max. Or Full throttle (sure you could get knocked off your bike), or The Dig. I think it was possible to die in Monkey Island 1 if you didn't solve the rather simple puzzle under the world.

In every classic adventure game you come to a point where you die, fail or have to reset some condition in a way that you have to try again. In Full Throttle you can be blown away in the end in little different ways:

Sam and Max, Monkey Island and Day of the Tentacle, which are more fantasy like worlds, you don't die at the end, but you reset a lot until you get it right. But Vella is in a lethal situation. It is not very believable that a monster would wait to be killed.

Classic adventure game? No. The good things of the classic genre distilled and sadly a bit simplified? Yes. More interactable items would've been nice. Their existence would've increased puzzle difficulty, and given more items to have quirky comments about.

Well, that's what have been promised by the kickstarter: a classic adventure. It's not a genre for everyone, and that's why it's was pre funded.

This is an opportunity to show that exploring and going beyond the obvious or even giving more than one solution only can be extremely fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maniac Mansion took place in one single house.

OK I agree... but it had interchangeable characters that demanded backtracking : )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, off-topic remark:

But that said, I played Full Throttle loaded onto my Wii about half a year ago. Completed it in 2 hours (but it did skip the travel and derby events because of lack of support in scummvm).

I'm positive that I finished Full Throttle last year on mi Wii with those events and all. I'd suggest trying a newer version, or getting a more complete rip of the game (some required video files might be missing in order to save space).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm playing some of the old adventures here and another thing I've missed is:

8) a great introduction:

One of the most fun parts, for me at least, was the beginning of the game. Sometimes a short mission or tutorial puzzle followed by a cinematic presentation like in The Dig or Day of the Tentacle, and sometimes a cut scene right from the start like Full Throttle or Sam and Max.

The paused back to back scene did seem interesting at first as it kind of implies that there will be parallel actions during the game. But there are not.

It would be great to have something to get excited as soon as the game starts.

It would be really great to play an unforgettable adventure again.

All my hopes rests in act 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes it's rather easy (evident by the fact I've completed Vella's story without trouble) and the interface is simplified compared to the adventures of old.

But that said, I played Full Throttle loaded onto my Wii about half a year ago. Completed it in 2 hours (but it did skip the travel and derby events because of lack of support in scummvm.

And in my 1 hour commute from work home I played around halfway through Day of the Tentacle on my phone. So yeah, adventure games have been short before, but there's usually been more stuff to confound players and stump them for a long time.

I haven't completed Monkey island 2

You completed them so quickly because you already know the solutions!

It would be interesting to see how long it would take you to finish monkey 2 with no walkthough as you haven't played it before. I would guess 10h + and defo not in one sitting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vella could have died in the end to show we are not getting it right. The monster will wait eternally to be killed the proper way? Really? Death is too politically incorrect? She is facing a life threatening situation. It's only logical that she may die sometimes.

I agree to this. To me there were two issues in that battle that completely took me out of the experience:

1) As you said, the monster would not eat Vella, after I had failed literally 15 times before I found the solution. It just seemed weird to me that a big scary monster would follow me, grab me with it's tentacles and just... wait for something.

2) If I recall correctly, the guy controlling the laser said something about using the laser too much would meltdown the ship. Yet it never ran out of ammo. Yes, he does pause for a bit before you can shoot again, but still it felt like the game was allowing me to retry as much as I wanted, waiting for me to 'get it'.

So for me, Vella should have a limited number of retries, either because she dies or the laser runs out juice. it just felt weird when I realized I could go make a sandwich while figuring out how to beat the monster, while the game would wait for me and continue to mast... I mean, play itself in the meantime. Vella is grabbed by the monster, she kicks the monster, she's back on the beach. Rinse and repeat.

Note that while I did find act 1 short, easy and somewhat predictable, I loved the story and the experience anyway (the music, god-darn it, the music!). The game as it is now is a beautiful interactive story that I really enjoyed. I just hope with our feedback things like these could get addressed somehow before the release of act 2. I plan on playing both acts completely then, and would be great if things like this could be better when I do, though I know it might not be possible to change any major things by then, only bug fixes, but here's hoping!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People just learned a lot about making games in the time since those old games were made. I don't see why throwing that knowledge away is helping the game in any way. Yes, more backtracking would be truer to the old games but it would also be a lot more frustrating. If that's what you miss, I'm afraid you are a case of Kickstarter "can't please everyone". I can't see how anybody violated a promise made during the campaign. Furthermore, if you watched the documentary, I think it was made clear in episode 1 or 2 that there would be modernizations. This was not only not going to be an 8-bit game, the gameplay would be modernized as well.

In many of your points you are criticizing half a game on things you can't even know until you have seen the whole game. And if you don't like whacky characters like a hipster lumberjack, then I really wonder how you could ever be drawn to Tim's games at all.

That's not to say that there might not be some valid points in your long list somewhere but it's buried under a lot of unfair criticism and discussions that we cannot reasonably have at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's good to see such a wide variety of opinions on the game, if I may indulge in a bit of metanalysis. I'm sorry to see you so far to one side of the bell curve. Perhaps expectations got ahold of you. Yes, this game is a different animal than those other ones, for one, you know the kickstarter original budget was supposed to make a game more like "Hostmaster and the Conquest of Humor" right? The games you describe were much much higher budget back in the day under lucasarts. Also death was more of a Sierra thing than Lucasarts if I remember correctly.

I think you just missed the joke about the HIPSTER lumberjack. It was a forum gag when they were showing animation test demos. Humor is subjective though, so i'm not going to get in an argument, you're as right as I am about it.

Long story short, you are just on the advanced edge of adventure game players, you might want to check out some of the more modern interactive fiction, you may find it to be more your speed. Anyone have suggestions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's good to see such a wide variety of opinions on the game, if I may indulge in a bit of metanalysis. I'm sorry to see you so far to one side of the bell curve.

Maybe opinions on the game aren't normally distributed then? Don't use your Gaussians without good reason! ;)

Yes, I'm digressing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I am entitled of having an opinion.

Most of the posts here keep pointing some issues and saying that it's a good game". It's almost as it would be a sacrilege to talk bad about the game.

There are good things in the game. But for me they don't count as much as what is wrong.

Adventure is a dying, if not dead, game genre. And yes I got very excited with the possibility of playing a new adventure game. That's what the kickstarter campaign was all about: getting funds to do something that the industry wouldn't fund anymore. Somewhere along the way this objective got distorted. And it shows in the result.

It's even as if the industry got involved. We missed the opportunity of reviving this genre.

The engine and visuals are grate. But that alone doesn't make a great game.

I don't know exactly how to put in words, but the game felt boring. The story lacks context. There is no introduction or prologue to give us some reference. The characters seemed as a backdrop without a full relation with the story. Why would the tree talk? Is it magic? What does it have to do with the overall plot?

The visuals, although gorgeous, are repetitive. We always see the main characters from the same angles. I would like to see a more cinematic experience instead. At least when completing a puzzle, give some sort of cutscene.

The few puzzles in the game are too toned down. I wonder how the testing was conducted throughout the development process. How well would a classic Tim Schafer's adventure be scored in the same type of testing?

Replaying the classics throughout this weekend, this feeling only got stronger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the posts here keep pointing some issues and saying that it's a good game". It's almost as it would be a sacrilege to talk bad about the game.

Why? Why do you think that if I say the game is good, it must be because I'm holding back out of some implied reverence to the game and/or Double Fine or THE LEGEND OF TIM OMG?

Some people around here make it sound as though only critics have Opinions, and everyone else is sheeple. I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are. :/

PS.: Ok, maybe a bit of an overreaction for this thread. Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

leosarma I guess we saw it coming. The moment the scope increased to "all platforms" this smelled like trouble. It was trouble for the developers and at some point it was financial trouble. A bigger scope means more effort, more money and more bugs.

And of course it means a wider audience. An audience who is used to casual games that don't cause too much immersion. The game has to satisfy both this kind of audience and the us adventure nerds. Us who have played much harder adventure games, many of us in countries where the Tips Hotline was not accessible and did not have good knowledge of English.

I understand why you feel disappointed. I was a bit too the moment I realised that an iPhone user would play the exact same game as the PC user. I didn't want a game that you play when sitting in a restaurant because you feel awkward in the present company.

Nevertheless, I disagree with you in one of the most important aspects of an adventure game, which is the story. I enjoyed the story so far and I just hope that Act 2 will have much more content, to at least take me a couple of weeks to complete. I found the voice acting good in some cases and excellent in others (that talking tree was hilarious), no complains there. Finally, some death would be good, but only the resettable one. Yes, the monster should be able to kill Vella, in which case you reset the boss battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes it's rather easy (evident by the fact I've completed Vella's story without trouble) and the interface is simplified compared to the adventures of old.

But that said, I played Full Throttle loaded onto my Wii about half a year ago. Completed it in 2 hours (but it did skip the travel and derby events because of lack of support in scummvm.

And in my 1 hour commute from work home I played around halfway through Day of the Tentacle on my phone. So yeah, adventure games have been short before, but there's usually been more stuff to confound players and stump them for a long time.

I haven't completed Monkey island 2

You completed them so quickly because you already know the solutions!

It would be interesting to see how long it would take you to finish monkey 2 with no walkthough as you haven't played it before. I would guess 10h + and defo not in one sitting.

I think I've already spent 10+ hours on MI2 without getting all that far. I'm not really good at adventure games.

And yes I completed it so quickly because I know the solutions, and most of the intervening dialogue by heart.

What I was getting at was that unlike those games, Act 1 felt rather short, mainly because I never got stuck anywhere. There are less things to interact with and get stumped for a solution to. But I'm guessing going with the direct path, not skipping dialogue, Broken Age will take a bit to complete. Day of the Tentacle takes a bit longer, but I don't know whether the plans for Act 2 are to be same sized or bigger or smaller or whatnot. At any rate, I still rather like it for the humour, the artstyle and the voice acting.

And no I'm not about to go back to the Island of Simians 2 just yet. Still need to get further in Night of the Rabbit (sadly not a day of the tentacle followup), which while it has rather nice graphics, also sadly is a rather good example of why voice acting and unskippable or slow to skip repeated dialogue can be grating on some people's nerves when stumped for what to do next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The main issue here is that the game is not what the kickstarter campaign promised.

They did not make any promises. They merely asked for money to develop a game and film a documentary. They made it VERY clear that the game could turn out to be a disaster. The only thing they didn't deliver on was the development time-frame (6-8 months)

You can argue that it is not "old-school" enough, but if you followed the documentary it became obvious early on that they were going for a more modern mechanic/feel.

Your other points are valid, and I agree with some of those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The main issue here is that the game is not what the kickstarter campaign promised.

They did not make any promises [...]

Youn, I would love it if you were right, but I checked and they did promise and old-school point and click adventure game. Now whether they delivered, I guess its in the eye of the beholder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
they did promise
Where? Just curious...
in the eye of the beholder
Didn't you just contradict yourself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
they did promise
Where? Just curious...

Ok, perhaps I will start a war about word meanings, but here is a quote from DFA Adventure's Kickstarter page:

Over a six-to-eight month period, a small team under Tim Schafer's supervision will develop Double Fine's next game, a classic point-and-click adventure. Where it goes from there will unfold in real time for all the backers to see.

What they said was "a classic point and click adventure". Let's go :)

EDIT: I completed the quotation to show the last sentence which has some implications.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's see.

Is Grand Theft Auto V a point-and-click graphic adventure? Hmm. Nope.

Is Call of Duty: Ghosts a point-and-click graphic adventure? Nah.

Is FIFA 2013 a point-and-click graphic adventure? No.

Is Pokemon X/Y a point-and-click graphic adventure? Nosirree!

Is BROKEN AGE a point-and-click graphic adventure? YEP!

I fail to see how they haven't delivered on their promise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lie requires an intent to mislead.

The baseless accusations are pointless... and they just do click with me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what convinced me that the campaign was all about reviving the classic point and click adventure genre.

About the Project

Over a six-to-eight month period, a small team under Tim Schafer's supervision will develop Double Fine's next game, a classic point-and-click adventure. Where it goes from there will unfold in real time for all the backers to see.

d721f912592b76b1512f5d75ea97366d_large.?1381436730

Tim’s Project Lead debut, point-and-click classic “Day of the Tentacle” (1993)

2 Player Productions will be documenting the creative process and releasing monthly video updates exclusively to the Kickstarter backers. This documentary series will strive to make the viewer as much a part of the process as possible by showing a game grow from start to finish, with all the passion, humor, and heartbreak that happens along the way. Double Fine is committed to total transparency with this project, ensuring it is one of the most honest depictions of game development ever conceived.

There will be a private online community set up for the backers to discuss the project with the devs and submit their thoughts and feelings about the game's content and direction, sometimes even voting on decisions when the dev team can't decide. Backers will also have access to help test the game once a beta is available. Once the game is finished, backers will receive the completed version in the available format of their choice.

For fans of adventure games, this is a chance to prove that there is still a large demand out there for a unique medium that inspired so many of us.

I didn't follow all documentary. But I've noticed that things were heading to a different direction.

I thought that it would at least feel like a classic point and click adventure. And for me it didn't.

This game is receiving so much attention and so much free media that even if it sucks completely, it will be a sales success.

That's why I don't understand why not take some risks and do exactly like in the pass. I doubt that someone playing a game like DOTT or any other classic today wouldn't get hooked. Once you get used to the interface the game just flows.

This was the opportunity to go beyond testing and marketing evaluations. And they've missed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...