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KestrelPi

Something they may be able to do quite easily difficulty-wise while the game is still in beta

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Wouldn't it have been smarter for DF to have put in an option for hints? I honestly don't know why there isn't one.

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I don't want them to change anything. I backed the game to give Tim and Double Fine the chance to make the game they wanted with absolute creative freedom.

I like the game so I'll risk putting my money in their next crowdfunded adventure game if they start one, and if I don't like it I'll just save my money the next time.

It's ok to give our opinions, but what I won't do in any case is telling them how to do their work. We are backers, not publishers.

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I don't want them to change anything. I backed the game to give Tim and Double Fine the chance to make the game they wanted with absolute creative freedom.

I like the game so I'll risk putting my money in their next crowdfunded adventure game if they start one, and if I don't like it I'll just save my money the next time.

It's ok to give our opinions, but what I won't do in any case is telling them how to do their work. We are backers, not publishers.

Well, I don't think here we're talking about sweeping changes that some people are calling for. But the game is in Beta and we've been asked to test and give feedback, and this seems like one of the few things they could do about difficulty (and we know from the docs that they've been doing this anyway to balance against testers - it's just that they've got a lot more testers now)

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Anyone else think of some specific examples where some hints could be got rid of?

Maybe the tree could have done without talking about vomit in every sentence. I think that was the other main one I noticed.

In that case I thought it was kinda funny, so I'd leave that one. It's just sort of part of his character that he talks about everything in relation to puking.

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I don't want them to change anything. I backed the game to give Tim and Double Fine the chance to make the game they wanted with absolute creative freedom.

I like the game so I'll risk putting my money in their next crowdfunded adventure game if they start one, and if I don't like it I'll just save my money the next time.

It's ok to give our opinions, but what I won't do in any case is telling them how to do their work. We are backers, not publishers.

+1

Edit: Also, classic adventure games used to have lots of hints. But not directly inside the game. Those used to come in paper manuals. There used to be printed hint guides too, that you could buy. You also used to have hotlines to ask for help (remember this was all before the internet).

(The DRM of the time was something like "write the sixth word in page 27").

Clearly, if you play those games in emulation nowadays, either you get stuck or you'll go to YouTube or a walkthrough in some fan page to get hints. Back then, you just RTFM. :D

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I don't want them to change anything. I backed the game to give Tim and Double Fine the chance to make the game they wanted with absolute creative freedom.

I like the game so I'll risk putting my money in their next crowdfunded adventure game if they start one, and if I don't like it I'll just save my money the next time.

It's ok to give our opinions, but what I won't do in any case is telling them how to do their work. We are backers, not publishers.

+1

Again, this isn't telling them how to do their work. They were ALREADY doing this work. They were ALREADY using testers to balance difficulty with dialogue hints. Now they just have a potential 90k more testers, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest there might be more tweaking still needed in this area.

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Well, but they asked for ur opinion and even wanted us to be playtesters.

So saying "Oh its all fine" wont't help them also. Especially as there allready was playtesting and certainly many said: Oh that was to hard. I didn't came further there bla bla … and they thousend times clicked the toaster so that dissapeared.

So as i even supported it with money, it's okay saying: Maybe the random but useless toaster would still be nice for distracting us a little? Would be even a plus for the game, cause we gonne puzzle more. Have more fun like that?

So i think it is okay saying - what - we didn't like. They asked us to! And we are even very produktive in thinking about what they might have done different!

They might not gonne do it. I am also cool with that. Tim allready said part 2 gonne be harder. Maybe he even knew pasrt one might be a little too easy for some of the backers.

And they can keep it just as it is. I'm fine with that. But just maybe add one option with less hints and maybe - if tim allready constructed them like that, more complicated solutions!

And i love the first part, i knew when i backed that there is no garuanty that i gonne like the game, it was just supporting a bunch of people doing a game no one else would have gave them money for that at the first time. The documentary was great allready. It IS great that the first part of the game is DONE! And Playable! Even in the beta i nearly got no bugs that really bothered me.

But i guess it's okay saying: Make it harder! Especially the second part, really, do make it harder! Make maybe even the first part harder?

And we all played the first half of the game allready. So it's really more like for the good of the game and less for urself.

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And if critics all over the web are gonne be quite about " nah its not hard enough " (what it indeed is, by the way, all those who didn't care didn't care about using their smarts anyway and are just happy with the story and stuff.) it would be a good thing for future buyers if than there gonne be: "Because of the backers they added a hard mode" or "because of the backers they added a less hints" option. Or "Because of the backers part one is kinda too easy solving the puzzles. But than in part II the real puzzle solving fun begins!"

Well, i guess, when there gonne be such critics it would be very good for selling the game even more than now!

And in every newer adventure game critics said: Yhea, well, the puzzles are like too easy in this one!

On the other hand the graphics and design are amazing. So that gonne sell the game anyway. But for me personally hearing people all over the net talking about how really way to easy it is it might stop me from buying if i was unshure!

So if they make it harder it even might bring them more money in the end.

And like in this thread. There might be some easy things to avoid in part II or maybe even make little differences in part I or add 2 different difficulty modes. Or a less hints button. That is doable. And realistic.

So feedback from a larger audience will tell you more about what buyers gonne hear and think later about the game. And too easy is a common one, and that is maybe because it is a problem the beta still has! But we are not talking about a finished game where couldn't be changed anything!

It is beta and it is only the first half …

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But i guess it's okay saying: Make it harder! Especially the second part, really, do make it harder! Make maybe even the first part harder?

And we all played the first half of the game allready. So it's really more like for the good of the game and less for urself.

Changing to the puzzles in Act 1 isn't a realistic scenario anymore at this point of development.

But merely removing the hint dialogues or delaying them is still a possibility. DF could take another page out of Telltale's book and have a game option to make hints frequent or rare or disable them completely.

Beyond that, all my hopes are on a harder Act 2.

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Again, this isn't telling them how to do their work. They were ALREADY doing this work. They were ALREADY using testers to balance difficulty with dialogue hints. Now they just have a potential 90k more testers, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest there might be more tweaking still needed in this area.

Oh, yes. I get your point.

I still think there's a difference between "puzzles were a bit on the easy side" or "it would be nice to be able to turn some hints off" to "this is not an adventure game!", "this is for 3 years olds and morons" or the "you should please ME!" type of comments.

I think people need to keep in mind that they are not seeing the whole picture here.

Remember that this game was planned as a whole, and was later decided to deliver it in two parts.

It is reasonable to think that maybe the level of difficulty could have been planned to be getting harder as you progressed in the game. Hence the first Act being a little on the easy side. (Or maybe not, but you can't be sure, so it's all speculation.)

Also I think it's reasonable to think that DF might want to sell this game to an audience that's well beyond the backers. Yes, we are the ones making it possible, but we are not the only ones who'll play it. So they have to take that into consideration. If the game was only planned for backers, it would have been a very different game, I tell you.

Same goes as to the devices where it will be available. They need to create something that allows them to port the game with minimal effort. Making something for different devices is really difficult and expensive (I know it, I do that for a living). So the UI needs to be thought to be used in desktop PCs as well as portable touch devices (two rather different media. I have hard times trying to explain my clients the difference between the two).

I think people needs to have all this things into consideration.

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We are backers, not publishers.

We're not even simple costumers. What's a backer? That's a pretty good question.

I think I know what "being a backer" means.

When someone will ask me "Could you suggest me the best old style point & click adventure game?", I'd REALLY want to answer: "Broken Age, hands down!"

Right now, if someone asks me that, I am forced to answer: "Errrrrr... I think Deponia is for you."

I should be 100% supportive of the game and yet I am not.

Something's not right, especially when I think that Broken Age is better than Deponia on almost any aspect, EXCEPT the puzzle design.

I don't want to tell Tim how to do his job, I want Tim and Double Fine TO ROCK. HARD.

If I shut up out of mere respect (which I think I have for Tim, Lee, Greg, David and the gang), I am not fulfilling my ROLE. Complaining per complaining is a customer's job.

I'm a backer, for Harm'ny's sake. ;-)

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I don't want them to change anything. I backed the game to give Tim and Double Fine the chance to make the game they wanted with absolute creative freedom.

I like the game so I'll risk putting my money in their next crowdfunded adventure game if they start one, and if I don't like it I'll just save my money the next time.

It's ok to give our opinions, but what I won't do in any case is telling them how to do their work. We are backers, not publishers.

Well, I don't think here we're talking about sweeping changes that some people are calling for. But the game is in Beta and we've been asked to test and give feedback, and this seems like one of the few things they could do about difficulty (and we know from the docs that they've been doing this anyway to balance against testers - it's just that they've got a lot more testers now)

Well, in fact they just asked us to "report bugs". The game is finished and they won't change anything that has to do with the creative process.

Easy and straightforward puzzles are not bugs or things that must be "fixed", it's just a different way of understanding how an adventure game must be. Some people don't like it and some people do, just as it happens with every game, book, movie, and piece of art.

We are backers, not publishers.

We're not even simple costumers. What's a backer? That's a pretty good question.

I think I know what "being a backer" means.

When someone will ask me "Could you suggest me the best old style point & click adventure game?", I'd REALLY want to answer: "Broken Age, hands down!"

Right now, if someone asks me that, I am forced to answer: "Errrrrr... I think Deponia is for you."

But that's an absolutely subjective question. What's best or worst depends of each person's taste. I heard some people saying that the only good classic adventure games are those of Sierra. So for them Monkey Island is a bad adventure game just because it's easier and with a different concept than King's Quest.

I say: King's Quest, Larry, Monkey Island, Full Throttle, Broken Age, Deponia, Grim Fandango, Machinarium and Kentucky Route Zero are all amazing adventure games. Are they different between them? Absolutely. Will they appeal to the same kind of players? Probably not, but they are excellent adventure games anyway.

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I don't want them to change anything. I backed the game to give Tim and Double Fine the chance to make the game they wanted with absolute creative freedom.

I like the game so I'll risk putting my money in their next crowdfunded adventure game if they start one, and if I don't like it I'll just save my money the next time.

It's ok to give our opinions, but what I won't do in any case is telling them how to do their work. We are backers, not publishers.

Well, I don't think here we're talking about sweeping changes that some people are calling for. But the game is in Beta and we've been asked to test and give feedback, and this seems like one of the few things they could do about difficulty (and we know from the docs that they've been doing this anyway to balance against testers - it's just that they've got a lot more testers now)

Well, in fact they just asked us to "report bugs". The game is finished and they won't change anything that has to do with the creative process.

Easy and straightforward puzzles are not bugs or things that must be "fixed", it's just a different way of understanding how an adventure game must be. Some people don't like it and some people do, just as it happens with every game, book, movie, and piece of art.

Look, you don't need to explain to me the difference between what's a bug and what's not so if you'd stop being so patronising for just a second that'd be grand.

I fully realise that in the 2 weeks they have their priority is to find and fix bugs in the game.

I agree, that most of the complaining about Act 1 difficulty is rather pointless because they're just not going to be able to magic up some harder puzzles in the 2 weeks they have.

However, difficulty testing is something they HAVE been doing while making the game, particularly in relation to the adding/removing of dialogue hints. It seems to me entirely reasonable to suggest at this stage that based on the feedback from the additional thousands of people who have been playing the game, it might be a 'quick win' to remove some of the dialogue hints that apparently weren't as necessary as they thought they were. Some of it could literally be commenting out some code, or rolling that part of the code back to a point where that hint hadn't been added yet.

Also, I don't appreciate my rather mild suggestion being placed in the same category as those people complaining that the game has been ruined because of puzzles. I'm not saying that, never did, just making a small suggestion that I think might be a realistic. Especially because I am regularly the first person to tell some of the more vocal complainers that they need to tone it down a few notches. I adored Act 1 of Broken Age. I'm not 'the enemy'.

Finally, you don't know any more than I do what they're willing to change in the next 10 days. Sure, we know they are looking for crashes and localisation fixes, but they've never once said that they wouldn't be willing to make other *small* changes if it fits within their schedule.

This has nothing to do with trying to control the creative process or tell anyone how to do their job. It's a realistic suggestion based on testing that they can take or leave.

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But that's an absolutely subjective question.

That goes without saying...

What I mean is if someone asks you that question, you should ask: "What kind of adventure games do you like?" I he/she answers "something like Full Throttle!", then the correct answer to the first question would be: "Broken Age is for you!" :)

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Look, you don't need to explain to me the difference between what's a bug and what's not so if you'd stop being so patronising for just a second that'd be grand.

I fully realise that in the 2 weeks they have their priority is to find and fix bugs in the game.

I agree, that most of the complaining about Act 1 difficulty is rather pointless because they're just not going to be able to magic up some harder puzzles in the 2 weeks they have.

However, difficulty testing is something they HAVE been doing while making the game, particularly in relation to the adding/removing of dialogue hints. It seems to me entirely reasonable to suggest at this stage that based on the feedback from the additional thousands of people who have been playing the game, it might be a 'quick win' to remove some of the dialogue hints that apparently weren't as necessary as they thought they were. Some of it could literally be commenting out some code, or rolling that part of the code back to a point where that hint hadn't been added yet.

Also, I don't appreciate my rather mild suggestion being placed in the same category as those people complaining that the game has been ruined because of puzzles. I'm not saying that, never did, just making a small suggestion that I think might be a realistic. Especially because I am regularly the first person to tell some of the more vocal complainers that they need to tone it down a few notches. I adored Act 1 of Broken Age. I'm not 'the enemy'.

Finally, you don't know any more than I do what they're willing to change in the next 10 days. Sure, we know they are looking for crashes and localisation fixes, but they've never once said that they wouldn't be willing to make other *small* changes if it fits within their schedule.

This has nothing to do with trying to control the creative process or tell anyone how to do their job. It's a realistic suggestion based on testing that they can take or leave.

I'm not trying to be patronising. I just like the game as it is and I'm trying to express my point of view as anyone else. I'm not a native english speaker so maybe I'm writing things that may sound the wrong way. I appologise for that.

Also, even if I quoted you and I'm writing this in your thread (I appologise for that too), my post was a reaction to all the people who are using their complaints to force Double Fine to change their vision, or influence Tim's writing of Act 2.

Anyway, my point is that even with these little changes you suggest, people that are complaining would still find Broken Age "too easy to be an old-school adventure game", so maybe the problem is that this game is not for them. You said Double Fine already made difficulty testing and I feel that they really found the right spot for the kind of gamer they were addressing, whether we like it or not.

My point of view is that tweaking the difficulty (specially in Act 2) might bring us to the point that it alienates both casual and hardcore gamers.

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Look, you don't need to explain to me the difference between what's a bug and what's not so if you'd stop being so patronising for just a second that'd be grand.

I fully realise that in the 2 weeks they have their priority is to find and fix bugs in the game.

I agree, that most of the complaining about Act 1 difficulty is rather pointless because they're just not going to be able to magic up some harder puzzles in the 2 weeks they have.

However, difficulty testing is something they HAVE been doing while making the game, particularly in relation to the adding/removing of dialogue hints. It seems to me entirely reasonable to suggest at this stage that based on the feedback from the additional thousands of people who have been playing the game, it might be a 'quick win' to remove some of the dialogue hints that apparently weren't as necessary as they thought they were. Some of it could literally be commenting out some code, or rolling that part of the code back to a point where that hint hadn't been added yet.

Also, I don't appreciate my rather mild suggestion being placed in the same category as those people complaining that the game has been ruined because of puzzles. I'm not saying that, never did, just making a small suggestion that I think might be a realistic. Especially because I am regularly the first person to tell some of the more vocal complainers that they need to tone it down a few notches. I adored Act 1 of Broken Age. I'm not 'the enemy'.

Finally, you don't know any more than I do what they're willing to change in the next 10 days. Sure, we know they are looking for crashes and localisation fixes, but they've never once said that they wouldn't be willing to make other *small* changes if it fits within their schedule.

This has nothing to do with trying to control the creative process or tell anyone how to do their job. It's a realistic suggestion based on testing that they can take or leave.

I'm not trying to be patronising. I just like the game as it is and I'm trying to express my point of view as anyone else. I'm not a native english speaker so maybe I'm writing things that may sound the wrong way. I appologise for that.

Also, even if I quoted you and I'm writing this in your thread (I appologise for that too), my post was a reaction to all the people who are using their complaints to force Double Fine to change their vision, or influence Tim's writing of Act 2.

Anyway, my point is that even with these little changes you suggest, people that are complaining would still find Broken Age "too easy to be an old-school adventure game", so maybe the problem is that this game is not for them. You said Double Fine already made difficulty testing and I feel that they really found the right spot for the kind of gamer they were addressing, whether we like it or not.

My point of view is that tweaking the difficulty (specially in Act 2) might bring us to the point that it alienates both casual and hardcore gamers.

Look, I don't doubt there are some people who will NEVER be satisfied. I'm not suggesting this as something that is going to please everyone. Removing a few hints here and there would only really do so much.

But put it this way - I loved the game, through and through. It didn't really bother me that the puzzles were easy, but I definitely remember there were situations where I was given a clue to solve a puzzle before I even knew there was a puzzle to solve - which, no matter what you think of the game - suggests perhaps that they maybe over-did the dialogue hints a bit. It's not going to massively change the difficulty, but it might give people a chance to figure out a few more puzzles for themselves.

I don't think it was the intention of Double Fine to give away the solution to puzzles to me before I even knew there was a puzzle, for the most part (excluding the beginning of Shay's world, where giving away the solution to the puzzles is kind of thematically the point). Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it was probably their intention to let me discover the puzzles, and maybe drop some hints in the dialogue.

I also don't think it was the intention of Double Fine to give me hints to puzzles that I had discovered, but hadn't really had a chance to solve myself yet. A couple of solutions were given away before I'd had a chance to think about them ('If only I had some way of propulsion'/whipped cream gun being one of them, for example). Again, maybe I'm wrong, but the way I heard Tim talking about puzzles, I really don't think I am.

But the good thing is, if I'm right, it might be that these are easy issues for them to fix - or at least some of them are. That's the motivation here.

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Yeah, I also have the impression some of the dialogue choices being unlocked too soon might be bugs. For example, the much-lamented fact that Vella can ask about Mog Chothra before it's even mentioned by name by anybody. Perhaps there are some flags to fix.

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Look, I don't doubt there are some people who will NEVER be satisfied. I'm not suggesting this as something that is going to please everyone. Removing a few hints here and there would only really do so much.

But put it this way - I loved the game, through and through. It didn't really bother me that the puzzles were easy, but I definitely remember there were situations where I was given a clue to solve a puzzle before I even knew there was a puzzle to solve - which, no matter what you think of the game - suggests perhaps that they maybe over-did the dialogue hints a bit. It's not going to massively change the difficulty, but it might give people a chance to figure out a few more puzzles for themselves.

I don't think it was the intention of Double Fine to give away the solution to puzzles to me before I even knew there was a puzzle, for the most part (excluding the beginning of Shay's world, where giving away the solution to the puzzles is kind of thematically the point). Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it was probably their intention to let me discover the puzzles, and maybe drop some hints in the dialogue.

I also don't think it was the intention of Double Fine to give me hints to puzzles that I had discovered, but hadn't really had a chance to solve myself yet. A couple of solutions were given away before I'd had a chance to think about them ('If only I had some way of propulsion'/whipped cream gun being one of them, for example). Again, maybe I'm wrong, but the way I heard Tim talking about puzzles, I really don't think I am.

But the good thing is, if I'm right, it might be that these are easy issues for them to fix - or at least some of them are. That's the motivation here.

I totally agree with you. The advanced (and sometimes unnecessary) hints -imho- was something that would be easy to remove and that would make the game better.

Yet, I've no expectations on DF doing that change to the game.

I don't know it they have the time or resources to do that, and since I have no idea how the rest of the game is, I don't know if removing that mechanic would have a positive or negative impact on the game as a whole.

All in all, I still believe judging the whole game by looking and the 1st act (as some people are doing) is a bit premature.

Let's wait and see what happens with the RTW version.

If they tweak the hints somehow, I'll be as happy as you for it. :)

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Wasn't there an easy and a hard mode in a few of the Monkey Island games??

If they simply made a hard mode -- featuring a few more steps in the existing puzzles -- I think it would appease everyone, and would require less effort than changing the current game to reduce the hints that are already existing.

For example:

In hard mode, perhaps "Grabbing Gary" has to be fixed before using him. Or there are two pieces of the knitting needle -- and the second piece has to be won from the two sock dudes playing cards... BUT... you have to find a way to cheat at the card game in order to win... opening up a bunch of options for increased puzzles.

I think this might be the easiest way to make everyone happy.

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Anyone else think of some specific examples where some hints could be got rid of?

- In the trainpuzzle with Shay. I did most of the playworlds twice in the beginning to get a grasp of the boredom that Shay has experienced over the years. The first time I took the train, I already saw what the solution would be. When I went the second time, I let one of the cuddly passengers hold the train at the top, called to the mountain to lower the bridge, and my stuffed friend shouted: "Don't do anything else, because I'm gonna let go!" Now the first part of that sentence felt almost insulting ;). Really an 'in your face'-hint.

- The tree about his barfing. Saw opinions varied about that, but I also thought he mentioned it too often.

And I think this thread is a good idea. I've really enjoyed the game so far, just finished actually :), the ending had me baffled... and I agree that by taking out some clues (I actually believe I haven't played an adventure before with so many clues) the puzzle experience can be enhanced, that is: we can feel smarter about ourselves when we've solved something, as I believe KestrelPi mentioned before ;)

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Wasn't there an easy and a hard mode in a few of the Monkey Island games??

If they simply made a hard mode -- featuring a few more steps in the existing puzzles -- I think it would appease everyone, and would require less effort than changing the current game to reduce the hints that are already existing.

For example:

In hard mode, perhaps "Grabbing Gary" has to be fixed before using him. Or there are two pieces of the knitting needle -- and the second piece has to be won from the two sock dudes playing cards... BUT... you have to find a way to cheat at the card game in order to win... opening up a bunch of options for increased puzzles.

I think this might be the easiest way to make everyone happy.

Yes. Well. Or for example the left maiden in the clouds could just not get off the shoes of her feed because they are to tight and you need to go to Car'l first getting some stuff to get those shoes of that feed!

Or you need the plant outside the ship to "eat" the airbag so that there is gonne be enough pressure to fix it on the helmet when the plant explodes again and graps your face.

There are really really plenty of easy ways to make things more complicated. No more characters. No more places. It's even frustrating seeing that all those chances just lying there, served up on a silver plate.

I felt like that game simply was cutted. I can't imagine some of those parts of the dialog or settings wasn't meant to be more complicated and just for further uses!

The problem is, DF made the decision about cutting it allready and now it's kinda late …

And part 2 is promised to be harder! So, maybe they let all those puzzles in - this time.

Maybe it even was a comprimise Tim did to please those who didn't want a harder game ( well, but i really do think a hard / easy mode would have been such a more elegant more pleasing solution than this one … )

But you know what? I didn't played part II yet!

If i am totally pleased with the puzzles in part II and the hints in that part disappeared (and part one was kinda an awesome animated and really fun tutorial like thingy) i don't even mind if part I stays as it is.

But i didn't played part II yet - i do not yet know how hard it's gonne be

But if the difficulty of part two is indeed nice, i won't mind that cutted part one as much anymore. (that shocking easy part one ;) )

The whole game and the design for the kickstarter was for an "flash-game like oldschool adventure game" its okay for me. We did get a light version of an oldschool adventure. Maybe very light. But perfectly funny dialogs and good animations. Nice story.

Maybe, if double fine ever again is planning to make an adventure, they are gonne do a real adventure with … ehm, real puzzles than?

But yhea, there was chances for really nice puzzles that DF just seems to have cutted. That is sad. Maybe nothing that could be changed anymore. Even if it is a nice thought they might do an update with an hard mode in it.

But yhea, i'm even fine if they don't. Just rock now that damn part II puzzles! AND If some want it easier, they might gonne have their easy mode! But keep the hard mode hard!

Keep the difficulty as high as it is allready planned and constructed! Please!

But maybe, even, they are learning something about it. That maybe sometimes the harder way is the better way. Hopefully. (and that a easy/hard mode was a brillant idea back than, for pleasing all sides) I mean, there is a strong feedback about "It's way too easy" they should take it sirious for games yet to come.

And didn't even Ron Gilbert said the game was kinda to easy? hahaha well i get now the 3 good things about broken age and the whole 3 pages that he felt wasn't so good hahahaha

Yes. Lets just say: Maybe Tim and his team learned something for further project? Like: Don't just go, get busy cutting all the hard mode parts straight out because some random picked playtesters- without keeping the hard stuff somewhere safe to get it right back in as an option, in case there is gonne be a wave of backers getting grumpy ^^

I mean, really, Tim did all this work having complicated puzzles we really was despratly seeking to play and than … they cut them. Man.

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This game is designed for 3 year olds and morons,

How about you and anyone else with this crappy attitude take it to some other thread? I started this one to talk about something that Double Fine might reasonably do to improve a game that so far I adored in almost every way. There are plenty of other threads you can visit to crap on the idea that someone might actually like this game, and I don't like that reasonable discussion is continually being trampled by people that can't accept that there are plenty of Adventure game fans who are largely satisfied.

I hate to rain on your parade but this is a forum for all opinions even if they don't agree with yours.

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We are backers, not publishers.

We're not even simple costumers. What's a backer? That's a pretty good question.

I think I know what "being a backer" means.

When someone will ask me "Could you suggest me the best old style point & click adventure game?", I'd REALLY want to answer: "Broken Age, hands down!"

Right now, if someone asks me that, I am forced to answer: "Errrrrr... I think Deponia is for you."

I should be 100% supportive of the game and yet I am not.

Something's not right, especially when I think that Broken Age is better than Deponia on almost any aspect, EXCEPT the puzzle design.

I don't want to tell Tim how to do his job, I want Tim and Double Fine TO ROCK. HARD.

If I shut up out of mere respect (which I think I have for Tim, Lee, Greg, David and the gang), I am not fulfilling my ROLE. Complaining per complaining is a customer's job.

I'm a backer, for Harm'ny's sake. ;-)

I am with you. I love the majority of this game (art/sound/voice and plot) but found the puzzles too easy for an "old-school point and click adventure". I am finding it frustrating that when I try to provide constructive criticism on how to improve the existing puzzles in act 1, I get treated like I'm the "enemy" or that I'm ungrateful of what Tim and the DF team has done. As a backer and someone who is passionate about the success of this game I feel like we should point out what we find (in our opinion) wrong, and not just stay quiet due to 'respect'.

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Totally. I wanted Tim to make a game he envisioned, but I also want my voice to be heard as to how we enjoyed that game. Whether it was made for us or not, it's us who are playing it so I think it's us who need to speak up and not just give DF blind praise for what they've done. The praise I have given is not blind, it's well deserved. But the criticism I've given comes from the heart with a sincere desire to see them do well. They need our honest feedback, not a bunch of fanboys who think everything they do is awesome (note: I'm not saying everyone who loves the game as it is is merely a blind fanboy).

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Think diffeculty also has allot to do with them not making an adventure game in 16 years at least tim. And getting the right balance in difficulty isn't an easy thing you don't want people get overly stuck. But you don't want to make it too easy.

And what people are saying that it remarked what you need to do next I think that is important in an adventure game. I really hate the games where you don't know what you have to do and you are stuck trying anything just to find out the meaning of it.

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I definitely agree that the heavy handed and early hinting detracted from the fun of the game. Some examples off the top of my head:

1) Certainly the puking tree, as others have mentioned. Even talking specifically about stools setting him off. Also, it would be nice if you didn't try to get the mayor's bucket until you know why you want it.

2) The head shrinking puzzle.

3) The taking a dive and such. From the documentary we know Tim had trouble with the whole breaking the routine and people being frustrated, but also SUPPOSED to be feeling frustrated. Seems they moved too far on the easy side here.

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Dunno if im meant to call it out but spoilers below...

Just finished the game and I really enjoyed it - although I'm glad to read what everyone has been posting and find I'm not the only one who found it super easy! I got stuck a couple times, but it was from me being dumb... not so much the difficulty of the particular solution. Totally agree with the puzzle solutions and sometimes even just future puzzles AND their solutions kind of jumping out at you/hinted at pretty heavily in dialogue. I picked up on the golden eggs use well before the puzzle came up, but having said that I found Shay's side easier, i never got stuck once on that side. Often I found my self knowing the solution/correct dialogue line straight away but delaying and going through the other options first so not to miss anything. But in any case, I really enjoyed it and would play through again - was gonna do a run through in retro mode but its a bit crap on a retina screen. Also anyone else get stuck on the fight with mog chothra? I thought it was a bug that his mouth didn't open and i didn't try any items on his mouth because there is no hotspot there - especially coz she keeps saying "no, no his mouth isn't open" - im like "yeh i know he won't fricking open it!"

On to plot stuff - heaps of theories kept coming to me about connections between the characters and even shays/vellas sides - but they were all smashed with the ending. I thought for sure vella was gonna be shays mum right up until he walked out of mog chothra. I was thinking merrick might be shays dad in disguise (unless the wolf suit thing was sarcasm) based on a couple things. Never picked up that the things you were saving "saving" with merrick are the feast girls until the end either - so super keen to see where the plot goes in Act 2 :)

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I definitely agree that the heavy handed and early hinting detracted from the fun of the game. Some examples off the top of my head:

1) Certainly the puking tree, as others have mentioned. Even talking specifically about stools setting him off. Also, it would be nice if you didn't try to get the mayor's bucket until you know why you want it.

2) The head shrinking puzzle.

3) The taking a dive and such. From the documentary we know Tim had trouble with the whole breaking the routine and people being frustrated, but also SUPPOSED to be feeling frustrated. Seems they moved too far on the easy side here.

Yep pretty much agree with all these. I've been thinking too, could you even make a game like day of the tentacle now? I mean hand holding is pretty much ingrained in games these days. Seems to cross all genres too - Link between worlds is super easy, lot of hand holding, the batman games pretty much don't even give you a chance to figure anything out for yourself - and it goes back way further that. I get the feeling that getting stuck is unacceptable to the modern gamer (at least in the modern game designers/publishers mind). We've all seen those pics online of things like "if the first super mario was made today" and it has "press A to jump overlayed on the first screen". Anyway Pumped for Act 2 - maybe you'll be able to pass objects between Vella and Shay via Mog Chothra's time travelling waste disposal unit ;)

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