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felipepepe

To the DFA staff: Can I get a refund?

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Could everyone just please stop posting in this thread and leave it alone. He is clearly just trolling.

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Could everyone just please stop posting in this thread and leave it alone. He is clearly just trolling.
Didn´t knew that you´re a moderator ;-)

And I think he has a point.

Even if not the one about the money-back stuff.

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Wait, we can just ask for money back on things we didn't enjoy? Man, I got like at least 30 bucks in Star Wars films I need to redeem.

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Oh dear. So many of you don't seem to understand the rules on which Kickstarter operates, or didn't read their terms and rules.

KICKSTARTER IS NOT A CHARITY FUNDRAISER.

THESE WERE NOT DONATIONS YOU MADE, THESE WERE PLEDGES.

Ahem. Sorry for the yell.

The difference is that you ARE, contractually, promised a certain product for which you merely PAID IN ADVANCE.

If the project owner fails to deliver the promised goods - at all, or they're of quality inferior to what was promised, or too different to fulfill the promise's specifics - you ARE entitled to try to settle a dispute through whatever means available. Kickstarter clearly states that while THEY are not responsible for the product's final success and THEY can't handle take-backsies, supporters CAN try to resolve issues directly with the project starter, if any arise.

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Oh dear. So many of you don't seem to understand the rules on which Kickstarter operates, or didn't read their terms and rules.

KICKSTARTER IS NOT A CHARITY FUNDRAISER.

THESE WERE NOT DONATIONS YOU MADE, THESE WERE PLEDGES.

Ahem. Sorry for the yell.

The difference is that you ARE, contractually, promised a certain product for which you merely PAID IN ADVANCE.

If the project owner fails to deliver the promised goods - at all, or they're of quality inferior to what was promised, or too different to fulfill the promise's specifics - you ARE entitled to try to settle a dispute through whatever means available. Kickstarter clearly states that while THEY are not responsible for the product's final success and THEY can't handle take-backsies, supporters CAN try to resolve issues directly with the project starter, if any arise.

There's contractually no difference between a pledge and a donation. Kickstarter is not a pre-order service.

Kickstarter's rules are the way they are because refunds are in many cases too unenforceable to actually make a one-size fits all rule for it. That's why they say to settle disputes directly with the project starter, not with Kickstarter, because it's entirely case by case basis.

The reason that Kickstarter now requires a 'risks and challenges' section to be filled out is to acknowledge the fact that a kickstarter pledge isn't a rock solid promise and that things can go wrong in the creation of a work. I think that inherent to kickstarting something is 'you might not like the thing in the end and regret paying money for it.' I mean, it's by definition unfinished works that are being funded their, and it's up to the backers how much confidence they place in that.

In this specific case, I am quite opposed to the idea that someone who has enjoyed 2 years of backer access, and delivery of a good number of the backer rewards should just be able to pull their funding. As I mentioned earlier, I think DF will honour refunds just because I think it is too much hassle NOT to, but that doesn't mean I think it's even remotely fair.

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Kickstarter even added a new compulsory section called Risks
Which is a huge joke. Nothing more.

It´s mostly like: "We know developing games is full of risks..blah.. ."

Anything less than that - there is zero chance of winning
Besides the fraud thing you´ve already mentioned this is not 100% true. KS operates in different countries and there are different local laws who protect you as an investor too.

But we don´t have to discuss if "I don´t like the result so I want my money back" is sufficient or not for a lawsuit :-)

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In this specific case, I am quite opposed to the idea that someone who has enjoyed 2 years of backer access, and delivery of a good number of the backer rewards should just be able to pull their funding. As I mentioned earlier, I think DF will honour refunds just because I think it is too much hassle NOT to, but that doesn't mean I think it's even remotely fair.

Oh, I never said anything about THIS particular case. Having enjoyed backer benefits already IS indeed eating half the dinner and requesting a full refund. I'm just saying the area SHOULD be open, as long as valid points are made.

Like, if I back an epic game that promises 20 screens and 30 puzzles, and I get a mediocre flop with 5 screens and 1 puzzle, I think I would request a refund, too - on the grounds of NOT FULFILLING THE CONTRACT.

We didn't get such specifics in the case of BA, just "a lovingly created game by the people we trust", so there are hardly grounds for a "contract breach" accusation here.

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Having enjoyed backer benefits already IS indeed eating half the dinner and requesting a full refund.
To be fair he's not asking for a full refund, just on the items still not delivered (Act II and the box). How one would evaluate that is another matter.

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Kickstarter even added a new compulsory section called Risks
Which is a huge joke. Nothing more.

It´s mostly like: "We know developing games is full of risks..blah.. ."

Depends what you mean. I mean, the risks/challenges section was never meant to be some sort of legal text on the kickstarter, nor should it be. It's just an attempt to draw to backers' attention that they're not buying something, they're backing something, and they should be aware that it might not pan out. As that, it seems to be fine.

Anything less than that - there is zero chance of winning
Besides the fraud thing you´ve already mentioned this is not 100% true. KS operates in different countries and there are different local laws who protect you as an investor too.

But we don´t have to discuss if "I don´t like the result so I want my money back" is sufficient or not for a lawsuit :-)

Exactly, if this ever got anywhere near a courtroom it would be laughed out of it, so I don't know why we're even talking about this.

The only real question is whether Double Fine feel there is a point in the process where they will stop granting refunds. So far, they have honoured them. As the project goes on for longer and longer, it feels less and less justifiable, but it's also potentially a bit of a PR hassle to deny a refund.

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Four days and I'm still waiting for a reply on this or my e-mail.

DF moderators had enough time to quickly lock my Steam thread, even though it didn't violate any rules, so I guess they also have time to reply to this.

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Actually the only thing double fine promised with their kickstarter was a documentary. They even said in their video you will wittness what it will become either a success or a complete failure. Next time watch what they promise originally this game would have been the size of one of the flash games that is on double fine site.

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Four days and I'm still waiting for a reply on this or my e-mail.

DF moderators had enough time to quickly lock my Steam thread, even though it didn't violate any rules, so I guess they also have time to reply to this.

Other than politeness, DF are not under any obligation to respond to you, let alone give you a refund. You agree yourself that they've technically delivered to you precisely what you paid for. (From the Kickstarter: "This year, you'll be given a front-row seat as they revisit Tim's design roots and create a brand-new, downloadable "Point-and-Click" graphic adventure game for the modern age.")

They haven't closed your thread here, which is more tolerant that I would be, so take the hint: The answer is NO.

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Four days and I'm still waiting for a reply on this or my e-mail.

DF moderators had enough time to quickly lock my Steam thread, even though it didn't violate any rules, so I guess they also have time to reply to this.

You already had the full promise of the project the documentary. It was the main promise of the kickstarter. And double fine probably didn't close your thread on steam. Steam modders close down threads that cry too much or go off into big swear fests.

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Double Fine promised you a traditional point-and-click adventure game. They didn't promise you'd like it. In fact, I believe they even said it may be a "spectacular failure, caught on film."

It's unfortunate that some people seem to misunderstand the concept of Kickstarter. You should definitely not drop $100 on something before it even exists if you aren't prepared for the possibility that you might be disappointed.

They didn't even HAVE to deliver the game. If development had all gone to hell, that would be perfectly acceptable within the rules of kickstarter.

This is not exactly true. KICKSTARTER is not responsible for anyone's failures to deliver, but the individuals and companies that use it are. Legally, someone can be sued for failing to deliver promised rewards.

However I don't think "This game wasn't as fun as I wanted" is the sort of thing that would hold much water in that regard.

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Four days and I'm still waiting for a reply on this or my e-mail.

DF moderators had enough time to quickly lock my Steam thread, even though it didn't violate any rules, so I guess they also have time to reply to this.

You should've at least changed username from your previous troll attempt, that's just trolling 101.

Now you wasted 110 dollars and can't even get decent lulz off it.

...well, not really :( I bet if you hold on to that box for several years or so, and the sell it off ebay once it becomes cult classic you can make at least 500$ easily.

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Stop feeding the troll, just ignore it and he'll go away. Bumping its own thread is a sure way to get a lock, in any message board, while replying to other posts is not. Let him bump it twice or so and the thread will be gone.

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I sure hope Double Fine won't lock it - otherwise this could become a "news-worthy" event. For now the trollishness is just too obvious to take him seriously...

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The Kickstarter was for both a downloadable point-and-click graphic adventure game as well as an extensive documentary depicting the creation of that game. Both of these things have clearly been created and delivered, with more content coming in both cases.

"Whether it goes well or whether it all goes to hell, we're going to show everything. ...Either the game will be great, or it will be a spectacular failure caught on camera for all to see. Either way, you win." -Tim, in the Kickstarter video.

We do not consider the game to be a spectacular failure. We're actually extremely proud of it. If you disagree, well, that's one of the possibilities that was presented to you when you backed. I'm sorry the game isn't the precise thing you wanted; such a feat is impossible to achieve for every individual when you're dealing with an audience of a hundred thousand. But it's a game that was created in good faith and with a lot of hard work and dedication, and we do not believe we breached any contract, implied or explicit, regarding its content.

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Looks like I was wrong. The answer is no - but quite justified in this case I believe, since the situation has changed now act 1 is delivered. Good call, I think.

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The Kickstarter was for both a downloadable point-and-click graphic adventure game as well as an extensive documentary depicting the creation of that game. Both of these things have clearly been created and delivered, with more content coming in both cases.

"Whether it goes well or whether it all goes to hell, we're going to show everything. ...Either the game will be great, or it will be a spectacular failure caught on camera for all to see. Either way, you win." -Tim, in the Kickstarter video.

We do not consider the game to be a spectacular failure. We're actually extremely proud of it. If you disagree, well, that's one of the possibilities that was presented to you when you backed. I'm sorry the game isn't the precise thing you wanted; such a feat is impossible to achieve for every individual when you're dealing with an audience of a hundred thousand. But it's a game that was created in good faith and with a lot of hard work and dedication, and we do not believe we breached any contract, implied or explicit, regarding its content.

A good - and given the circumstances - very polite answer.

Also: Refunds (except perhaps for a complete fraudulent Kickstarter project) would stand against the basic idea of crowd-funding. The concept is to free a developer from a part of the financial risk that would be associated with a bank loan and to let the developer build a product without the worry of financial success afterwards. So you pledge money for a project that could probably not be funded be a bank and/or investor for risk reasons (sometimes also idiological reasons I guess - the whole "publishers are evil, they hate us all!" thing which some Kickstarter projects try to pull of).

So if refunds (because one is unhappy with the product) would be possible or one would even be legally entiteld to one then the risk would be completely back with the developer: If the product would turn out to be not as appealing perhaps a lot of backers would demand refunds and send the developer into bankruptcy. In that case a developer would be better of with a publisher indeed!

So: Refunds are incompatible with crowdfunding. Everything else would just be another form of pre-order or a loan which can be better provided by a bank, investor or publisher. If you support the idead of crowdfunding you have to accept the risks. Bottom line: Do not spend more money on a crowd-funded project than you are willing to BET for the idea and are willing to LOOSE (in the worst case scenario).

Edit: Oh, for the record: I do not in anway way think my money was ill-spent. The documentary alone was worth my pledge and what I up until now played looks extremly nice and polished albeit a bit flat - but that's common knowledge by now, so no need to pour more salt in that incredibly-stunning-looking wound, especially since Tim will make the puzzles in Act II so DAMN hard that the typical iPhone user will think there is a paywall in the way ;-)

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The Kickstarter was for both a downloadable point-and-click graphic adventure game as well as an extensive documentary depicting the creation of that game. Both of these things have clearly been created and delivered, with more content coming in both cases.

"Whether it goes well or whether it all goes to hell, we're going to show everything. ...Either the game will be great, or it will be a spectacular failure caught on camera for all to see. Either way, you win." -Tim, in the Kickstarter video.

We do not consider the game to be a spectacular failure. We're actually extremely proud of it. If you disagree, well, that's one of the possibilities that was presented to you when you backed. I'm sorry the game isn't the precise thing you wanted; such a feat is impossible to achieve for every individual when you're dealing with an audience of a hundred thousand. But it's a game that was created in good faith and with a lot of hard work and dedication, and we do not believe we breached any contract, implied or explicit, regarding its content.

Quite convenient selection of quotes... how about this one:

Q: What will the game be?

A: Other than that it will be an old school adventure, we're not sure.

And here we are, with a streamlined adventure game for tablets, that is everything BUT old-school.

You're right, you can't please everyone; the problem is that just like every AAA publisher out there, you guys decided to please just the lowest common denominator possible... and did that with money from those old-school fans, to whom you promised a classic adventure game.

Guess I'll just have to sell the swag I got and never back a Double Fine kickstarter again. If anything, I thank you for at least having the decency to reply.

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There is no explicit standard defined anywhere as to what an 'old school adventure game' is, in terms of difficulty or precise design. There are really only some general guidelines as to how those games looked and played. I don't particularly see difficulty as an absolute in that definition, either, seeing as how difficulty ranges in all games, including classic ones. Thing is, it's a 2d game where you explore a series of rooms, collect a mishmash of items in an inventory, talk to varied characters, and overcome a variety of obstacles by interacting with all of the above. Those are the roots of the classic adventure game, and that's what Broken Age is.

Agreeing or disagreeing the level, quality, and enjoyment is always going to be a subjective opinion and can't really define what the game is or resembles. Inventing qualifications for a project which did not explicitly state those qualifications is, in effect, rather silly. Personal expectations do not create reality. Beyond the difficulty of the puzzles, most the big gripes about the changes to the user interface from typical control schemes were discussed well in advance of now and shouldn't be much of a surprise.

Ultimately, while delayed and fragmented, the stated goal of the project has been (half) achieved (as it is still in progress), unless you can find a judge who would rule otherwise in a court of law. You are, of course, fully within your rights to express dissatisfaction with your wallet for future projects. ;) That's a privilege we all share!

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Hmm, i got enough enjoyment from the whole project (like the t-shirt, the docu, certain forum experiences and two years full of hope and excitement for a LucasArts point & click adventure) so, whilst the project/game turned out to be disappointing so far, i overall don't regret backing it at all but currently i also don't feel a desire to fund another game from DF, at least nothing this nebulous. Instead it sounds better to me to wait until something is finished and if i like it, i'll buy it and if not, i won't, just the old skool way. Maybe DF also will enhance their part and more keep an eye on delivering what once was suggested, we will see.

I guess that's generally an issue with Kickstarter projects, you just don't know what you'll get in the end. I wouldn't have minded if the project accidently went wrong, shit happens, but it somehow feels wrong to me when it was done by intention. And a lack of really great projects, it's still FTL vs. the rest, plus a couple of other reasons. Anyway, no hard feelings, it was an instructive entertaining experience but i also don't need this for, dunno, half a dozen of projects a year for the rest of my life and thinking of TTG, i sometimes still feel kind of vulnerable adventures related.

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Guess I'll just have to sell the swag I got and never back a Double Fine kickstarter again. If anything, I thank you for at least having the decency to reply.

Given your attitude in this thread, I think they'll be perfectly okay with that.

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I'm going to try this at my local Gamestop store. I'm going to preorder a game, play it, beat it, and then go back to return it because it didn't live up to my expectations. I'm sure they'll agree to it.

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