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Dan Fury

I hope the documentary will explain some negative things in the future

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Not supporting Daedelic on principle is just wrong, especially if you say you like adventures.

Excuse me? I can decide not to support a company for any reason I choose, thanks very much. Not that I have to justify it, but I think that not supporting a company that routinely doesn't pay the people who produce a high percentage of their assets is a perfectly fine reason. If you see it differently, that's fine, but saying it's 'just wrong' for me to decide what I'm willing to spend my money on is just about the most bizarre thing I've read on this forum all day.

Fortunately it's easy for me not to support Daedelic, because as I said, whenever I've seen parts of their games e.g. in a let's play, I've found it baffling why anyone thinks they're the people to inherit the LucasArts tradition, as I recognise nothing in those games that I liked in the LEC classics. But different strokes and all... I'm quite particular, I also took quite an extreme dislike to The Longest Journey, which I know lots of people love for reasons that baffle me to this day. Still, I know I'm not the only one who doesn't see the appeal of Deponia.

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Of course you can spend your money on any game that you want and if none of their games appeal to you that's perfectly fine.

But saying that you choose not to play their games because you heard somewhere on the internet that they have a lot of interns, when pretty much every company has them is not a good argument. Seriously, your signature says you make games yourself, do you believe you can produce high quality software just with a bunch of interns?

I really doubt that interns do the bulk of the work on their games.

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Of course you can spend your money on any game that you want and if none of their games appeal to you that's perfectly fine.

But saying that you choose not to play their games because you heard somewhere on the internet that they have a lot of interns, when pretty much every company has them is not a good argument. Seriously, your signature says you make games yourself, do you believe you can produce high quality software just with a bunch of interns?

I really doubt that interns do the bulk of the work on their games.

I didn't say I was against the use of interns per se - only that I think when you're using it for a large amount of asset creation, the practice becomes somewhat questionable. Though actually it's not just something that I read on the internet, I also looked into it, so don't be so presumptuous.

I know that the amount of unpaid work they do MUST be quite high because otherwise if you look at the credits of Deponia and how long it took to develop, and how much they say it cost to make the maths just doesn't add up unless you assume they are not paying a large percentage of the people who worked on it.

My main objection however is how the CEO of Daedelic criticized Double Fine for spending $3.3 million on an adventure game when Double Fine are paying their staff a living wage (except for Marius, whose involvement in the project was actually a rather remarkable story - and as I mentioned before has more or less been told he has a job there if he ever wants one). That strikes me as an exceedingly low blow.

But again, I don't need to justify this. I don't like Daedelic. I don't like the bits of their games that I've seen, and I don't like the way they have used their own (questionable) business practices as a way to criticize other developers, and I won't be supporting their work on that basis.

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The other seemingly popular character are the yarn pals. I didn't like them because they were just not that interesting, but I guess that's a matter of taste.

I've been wondering about the yarn. So much of Shay's environment is yarn...

They sure know how to spin a good yarn!

:)

I think there is more to the yarn. Think about it. What reason is there to make the yarn pals yarn? What reason is there to make the navigation system yarn? Is it only to serve the knit navigation puzzle? That seems kind of odd. I can see the overmother making yarn pals because of the cliche image of mothers knitting. but there are countless ways to make a goofy, spacey navigation apparatus. Of all the options in the world, the choice was YARN.

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The other seemingly popular character are the yarn pals. I didn't like them because they were just not that interesting, but I guess that's a matter of taste.

I've been wondering about the yarn. So much of Shay's environment is yarn...

I think "Mom" comes from a weaver city.

As does Marek.

And it may be Mog Chothra that comes from a weaver/knitting city.

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I personally think Wadjet Eye gets the closest to claiming the throne, since they're a pile of super-indie AGS studios/people smart enough to gather together and release quality under one name for customers to remember.

Definitely a Wadjet Eye supporter, here.

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But this business about them using interns -- it's not really fair to make it sound like theyre using labor camps or something. Lots of people work on adventure games for free, because they've probably recognized it's one of the only ways to get a proper adventure game these days [the alternative, it seems, is giving all your money to your heroes and constantly reminding people on their forums that their old games actually had puzzles, while being largely ignored in the final product].

It doesn't matter to me whether the interns are perfectly happy with the arrangement - I expect the majority are since it seems to be a very common practice particularly in German studios. I still think that unpaid internships are an exploitative practice when overused, as I think that once it gets to a certain level (and given the credits for Deponia v.s. how much they claim it cost to make, I think there's a startling disparity there) it becomes exploitative - more like using a legal loophole in order to not pay staff, and I think that just IS exploitative, even if for most of these people it's enough just to have the opportunity. There's internships, and there's using a loophole to get a LOT of work done for free, and I think at the very least Daedelic must be toeing the line dangerously. Otherwise, as I say, it just doesn't add up mathematically.

If it was just that, though, I probably would let it slide, I guess. The part that really got me was how the CEO criticised others for having bigger budgets. That was very not-classy, and suggests an attitude that I don't want to support.

As you your last point, well, I guess I just disagree with you about what a 'proper adventure game' is, and I don't think that anyone has a monopoly on that term.

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I personally think Wadjet Eye gets the closest to claiming the throne, since they're a pile of super-indie AGS studios/people smart enough to gather together and release quality under one name for customers to remember.

Definitely a Wadjet Eye supporter, here.

I like 'em, but I do think they're hit and miss. Wasn't awfully keen on Resonance, despite high hopes. And while I've no problem with pixellated retro-style art and thought Gemini Rue uses it beautifully (I use it in my own games, for various reasons) I'd definitely love to see a bigger budget production from them where they could attempt some other styles.

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I personally think deponia is *terrible*

Daedalic made some great adventures, and deponia isn't one (or three) of them.

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I personally think Wadjet Eye gets the closest to claiming the throne, since they're a pile of super-indie AGS studios/people smart enough to gather together and release quality under one name for customers to remember.

Definitely a Wadjet Eye supporter, here.

Same here.

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something that puts all this in perspective (from the grim fandango wiki)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-10-double-fine-adventure-passes-day-of-the-tentacle-budget

full throttle: 1.5M

day of the tentacle: 600K

grim fandango: 3M

really don't get this.... Don't forget the gains from the humble bundle also went to broken age

Don't forget inflation combined with they already did some adventure games before those games.

Like full throttle would be like 2.3 mil now.

Grim Fandango 4.4mil

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something that puts all this in perspective (from the grim fandango wiki)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-10-double-fine-adventure-passes-day-of-the-tentacle-budget

full throttle: 1.5M

day of the tentacle: 600K

grim fandango: 3M

really don't get this.... Don't forget the gains from the humble bundle also went to broken age

Don't forget inflation combined with they already did some adventure games before those games.

Like full throttle would be like 2.3 mil now.

Grim Fandango 4.4mil

Yeah, fully agree... it's probably a lot closer in terms of budget then it seems, but still: they were full games!

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Was the creation of the grim fandango engine and the game both a part of the budget? From what I read, it seems like lucas arts was working on the engine already, and then chose grim to be the game built in it.

I'd say, content-wise (not puzzle design) grim is maybe only slightly bigger than broken age will be - and only had a slightly bigger budget. So they compare pretty favorably.

Broken Age they did a lot of exploration at the beginning, figuring out how to make the game. They abandoned the engine that the whole team was already used to for something new. I for one really appreciated the qualities that Broken Age gained from these technical decisions - in animation, exploration, and art. I also think that in the end the content (at least in Ac1) feels weighed to far in favor of these elements and not enough in gameplay.

So it's really aesthetically that some of us are disappointed rather than "how did such a small game take so much money to make".

To the OP's question, I watched the documentary until this point and feel that it already pretty accurately explains how the game ended up how it has. There is a lot you can plan for in this world - but you don't know how your decisions will affect the future until you walk the path. Tim asks for a little bit of money for a pet project, and gets showered with money and adoration. Tim writes a very ambitious treatment for a game. They decide to use a brand new slightly untested engine, and make some bold artistic decisions as well. Then the team struggles to find the right workflow for the project. They cut the game in half because they realize they are running out of money.

Not to mention the affect that the huge expectations had on everyone.

The end result falls just short of being amazing, but it's still a very cool story and will be worth finishing when act 2 arrives.

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yeah the game is undoubtebly very good, but definitly falls short of expectations.

this is the first really big kickstarter that gets released, and we're seeing quite a bit of disappointed backers.

Wouldn't it be hugely ironic if tim first killed adventure games with grim fandango, and now kills crowdsourcing with broke age? ;)

( i kid, i kid, i think the game is gonna turn out absolutely fine)

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There is some harsh stuff about Daedalic in here, so just my 2 cents:

- All posts on that jobs page of theirs mention compensation, which is actually unusual in Germany for many internships

- Hamburg is one of the most expensive places in Germany, usually behind Munich. I guess San Francisco is still worse, but Hamburg is definitely not a cheap place to make anything

- This whole thing about comparing budgets (especially the gameplay timing) is terrible. You should compare the value proposition, though.

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There is some harsh stuff about Daedalic in here, so just my 2 cents:

- All posts on that jobs page of theirs mention compensation, which is actually unusual in Germany for many internships

- Hamburg is one of the most expensive places in Germany, usually behind Munich. I guess San Francisco is still worse, but Hamburg is definitely not a cheap place to make anything

- This whole thing about comparing budgets (especially the gameplay timing) is terrible. You should compare the value proposition, though.

I'll admit I haven't done investigative journalism on them, but I've heard questionable things from more than one source. It was really the comparing budgets thing that left a thoroughly bad taste in my mouth. Can you ever imagine Tim Schafer some other developer crap about how much their game cost to make (except in jest)? Guy seems to have a chip on his shoulder because his games (despite being respected in some circles) aren't revered to the same level.

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