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Developing games for a “broader audience”

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I wonder why MI2 is the only one (the only one I'm aware of anyway) with this system, as it worked out very well in that game. Developers thought it was unnecessary? It made scripting too hard? It increased the budget too much?

The three FMV Tex Murphy games had it too (Entertainment and Gamer Level), with the hint system only activated on Gamer Level. I think it is a very clever system because you can go the easy way in Entertainment mode but there is a real incentive not to do it (– you get more points in Gamer mode –), where, for example, in the new Broken Sword game there was a hint system but no penalty for using it.

I'm glad the new TM will have it too, so that they don't have to go easy on the puzzles in the harder mode.

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Yes. Also i liked the machinarium "hint"system, as you have to play a not to easy mini game to open a kind of "hint-book" with good tips for those who got stucked.

The Mini game was the great thing, cause it stopped you to look into it, the second you was stucked a little, first.

And also the hint bar in the telltale games. But to be honest those hints was stuff for example Guybrush or Sam and Max was saying while you was walking around with them and hadn't to do anything with the Dialogs in the game. So as Broken Age doesn't have those hints the hint bar would be technically way more challenging to buit.

Well, and to say so, even the telltale games was to easy for my taste! And! Critics agreed on that too!

Those a day adventures are no real challenge anymore. But away is the big fun with it that way. So you more have like that feeling of boredom when a puzzle gets to easy instead of beeing entertained.

I mean, the first part of Shays adventure and even the cult around harm'ny lightbeard are kinda perfect metaphers for that. I am just saying ch't.

Just don't cut things out, you know!

I mean. DF is in a kinda bad situation now. Cause i don't think they could change much about part one. Luckily they still have a second part to do. But if the first part is not gonne sell as it should, because critics now everywhere telling people: Loveley Game. No real puzzles Thou, kinda easy peasy.

Well, than once and for all the point there is, that it is proven that easy peasy games don't sell good! And why should they. It are games and not movies!

But yhea, i hope they gonne get the money back in and stuff. It a really really nice kids game so far. And i say that, according to the whole discussion above, because i like adult themes in kids-tales. Like in the Brother Grim - fairytales. So those are also really enjoyable for grown ups.

But the puzzles are really really really just for kids. And the whole theme fits very well for kids also. (that brave girl fights monster-thing in poppy fluffy beautiful world … well okay, especially with shay maybe those kids should be a little older. That whole rebellion against mother theme maybe, to be honest, may be a little to konfusing for the little kids!)

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Oh and just as a good example for the whole theory why adventures really fail these days. As you guy mentioned amanita design anyway.

Machinarium was a huge hit! Everywhere kind of! And it did have quite complicated puzzles!

Than, as if it was kind of a diabolic law of nature the next game was just kinda a strange "Click through" game. Botanicula. Well Botanicula quite fast came after Machinarium.

Point one: Bontanicla ended up not really that much noticed.

It has not even a wikipedia article in Germany.

And since than …. amanita kinda did nothing new till now. Not even said there is any new project at the moment ( i have to check maybe their page again sometimes … but yhea, i don't even check it anymore at the moment, because there is nothing happening, and with botanicula ... no awards …. nothing … )

So, Amanita got a complicated game that was a huge hit.

Than Amanita wanted maybe to reach a bigger market and made an easy peasy click through game … and nothing more was heard of it. It was just once mentioned here and there when it came out as "the new release from the studio that made machinarium".

Ahrgh. I not even get this myth "easy games for stupid people sells best"

Just saying.

Machinarium is challenging, and gorgeous on its visual also. Its success is credited to those two elements.

Yeees … but if you cut the challenge out of the game and just keep the gorgeous visuals, like they did with botanicula … it gonne end up unnotized and won't even work on any market!

I bet they sold some botanicula copies! For example to me! But indeed, maybe, just like it was with me, just because i knew and loved machinarium. I would never buy a botanicula II. botanicula was to boring in parts. I never would play it a second time. While machinarium, i gonne play somewhen again shure.

So of course because the visuals. All i am saying is: those are not enough!

And many people here in the forums even said "oh this great visuals are a kinda waste, as the gameplay and the puzzles are kinda way to easy."

There it is.

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I didn't think it was too easy at all (there were a couple of puzzles where I struggled with them for over an hour, and eventually had to go to the forum for a hint), but as I've said before, I didn't get a chance to play a single point-and-click adventure game as a kid. I think my parents didn't think they were age-appropriate for me at the time, even though, to my knowledge, very few of them had sex or violence in them.

I prefer easier, more approachable games. It's the best way (I think) to get into a genre I'm previously unfamiliar with, it isn't too obtuse or intimidating, and I know some people (gamers and otherwise) who get really discouraged unless they know they'll be able to do something. I think that's why some people avoided gaming until smartphone games became really popular, they had this idea in their head that gaming was super-complicated, expensive, and clique-y, some kind of private club where if you hadn't been there since Day 1, you weren't invited. And I want gaming to be as open and approachable as possible. I want every person to be able to have at least one video game they enjoy playing.

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Yes indeed, the puzzles wasn't bad at all. They just ruined it with all those hints and the lack of complexity which doesn't even feel like it have been originally there!

We should open a "how we could extend the puzzles"-Thread. Cause there allready was plenty of ideas how all those puzzles could have become more complex than before.

(so, spoilers from now on ^^)

I loved that tree spit - throw it down from the clouds - idea mentioned earlier from musicallyInspired! (maybe because the major don't beliefe in your idea and finds it rather stupid …)

And so, medacris, you never played a adventure game?

Well it's okay to be easy at first. But you got more playtime and more joy after solving a puzzle, if it doesn't hold your hand through everything and if it doesn't have like such horrible hints.

The POINT is to be stucked and walking around for about an hour finding, despretly searching for hints, and finding some here, some there, and getting the bigger picture and than BAM wow, i am so smart!

Yhea, i also got stucked with the riddle of Yorn. (Yarn? ^^ ) But, to be honest, that puzzle was kinda the one i liked less in the whole game. Well, maybe especially as i am no native english-speaker. And riddles and stuff are getting taff anyway than.

But also because i thought: Oh it have to be a plant. And i was walking around in the tree area and stuff. I especially thought i need to talk to everybody to find out about the riddle. And after a while i remembered that tree in the clouds. Well okay, that indeed is how adventures kinda intendet to be.

But that tree was so far away and between me and the tree was nothing more to interact with! Nothing! There was no line anymore in the clouds that wouldn't have been spoken. There was nothing more to talk to with the lumberjack, not even the maidens or the major did have really well much to say … so you walk the whole world of Vella again where is no option to do anything anymore … and than remember that fruit thing. It was kinda more that i got stucked because i not even was used anymore to something you have to think about a bit longer. And not used to have to go to far to find that one item lying around somehwere. Or having the needed item anyways with you, if you knew what for you are going to need it for or not.

So those are really more the reasons for me, why i got stucked.

Of course, it is getting stucked. And it wasn't a klick through part. But it wasn't that satisfiying at all, as the riddle would have been really easy to solve if i had a plantpart with me earlier anyway.

Let the lumberjack built the stool and the whole tree episode was awesome. So that was a puzzle with good potential.

And as i played through the whole game in 4 h … "stucked" is a term that might not be well too fitting anyway. Well, in monkey island 3 that one time i once was stucked for all in one around 2 to 4 h at one riddle! (so i did plenty breaks and stuff, switched the computer off and did other things … but yhea) Man did i felt happy when the game went on! (it was the time before we got internet)

But i collected my hints! The moment, when you find a possibilty to do something and lots of things are happening that for, is just awesome!

Like when i peeled of the map of one of those guys skin on puerto pollo. I just love that memory, still. ah good times.

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But to be honest, as i think about it, the riddle of yorn (yarn? haha sorry ;) ) really was kind of a classic expierience as i discovered the nest i didn't knew before and stuff.

Remembered the guy that was trying get peaches.

The thing that bugged me with the riddle of yarn really, is that there was a map that wasn't too small - a whole world - and there was not even anymore to do in.

So, if for example i had to throw that tree spit down from the clouds, i would have been used to walking around that whole area! (as you was very very used to walking around that islands in monkey island the whole time …)

And i would even randomly liked going up that cloud town if there would have been just a little bit of chaos afterwards i mean, i kinda disconnected the cult from his beloved leader … one or two lines about that would have been a little nice. Maybe even something funny, that explains that all those guys didn't even notized something.. (like "It's good to know harm'ny is allways with us!" kinda stuff)

And what even happened with f'ther??? (did i missed it?)

So all the puzzles had great potential. And yes, we exactly got ur promised classic adventure game flash thingy. But it is just totally unsatisfying, as i played a lot adventures the last years, that i partly thought are a bit boring, because they all are way to easy now.

Than the Tim Schafer says: I gonne make a classic one! And … than … it was easy. -.-' Again.

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According to Tim Schafer, Grim Fandango sold 500k copies. I believe that if Broken Age sold 500k copies Double Fine would be very happy. So I'm not sure why Broken Age needs to be targeted at a wider audience than Grim Fandango.

Because their studio died. They didn't go away for some malicious reason, they weren't making money.

Again, according to Tim Schafer, Grim Fandango did make a profit.

Now, do you think Broken Age has cost so much money that it will not turn a profit if it sells 500k copies? Because anything that happened at LucasArts is irrelevant. I don't know what their overheads or plans for the future were. All that is relevant is that an adventure game with hard puzzles sold 500k copies in 1998, and whether 500k sales would be enough to cover Broken Age's costs.

Also, LucasArts didn't "die" they were very much alive until Disney bought the whole Star Wars empire and decided they didn't want to be in the video game business.

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And so, medacris, you never played a adventure game?

Well it's okay to be easy at first. But you got more playtime and more joy after solving a puzzle, if it doesn't hold your hand through everything and if it doesn't have like such horrible hints.

The POINT is to be stucked and walking around for about an hour finding, despretly searching for hints, and finding some here, some there, and getting the bigger picture and than BAM wow, i am so smart!

I don't want to be stuck for an hour or need hints, that's the thing. I don't want Act 2 to be harder than Act 1. I love very simple games, something a total idiot and newbie like myself can do on their own. That's why I kinda appreciate hand-holding in games.

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And so, medacris, you never played a adventure game?

Well it's okay to be easy at first. But you got more playtime and more joy after solving a puzzle, if it doesn't hold your hand through everything and if it doesn't have like such horrible hints.

The POINT is to be stucked and walking around for about an hour finding, despretly searching for hints, and finding some here, some there, and getting the bigger picture and than BAM wow, i am so smart!

I don't want to be stuck for an hour or need hints, that's the thing. I don't want Act 2 to be harder than Act 1. I love very simple games, something a total idiot and newbie like myself can do on their own. That's why I kinda appreciate hand-holding in games.

if you don't like to be stuck, you'll always be able to read the solution up somewhere ;)

sadly there's no such solution for us, who want to be challenged to "work around" easy puzzles...:(

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yhea, it's awesome double fine pleased especially people that didn't even want to play adventure games at all.

And now you guys telling them to make part II as lazy because you liked it that way. Just as i was expecting it somewhen else here in the forum.

Well, that is exactly what kinda makes me angry about that whole kickstarter thing! What about those who really wanted this thing to happen?

There are soooo many adventure games allready ain't difficult. So what for was this whole "Lets make some oldschool happen"-story about even?

Sorry. I am fine with everything and i do know that i backed a project and that on my own risk. But as i do care about the genre, what those who are totally pleased don't seem to do - at all - , when i read this. Well, as i care about the genre, i am just saying, this way, they never gonne reanimate the genre to his former glory. This way, they kind of burried it even deeper.

I am not so much angry because of the game itself, that i do in most parts like or even love. But i am angry because this way Tim Schaffer kinda made shure there never gonne happen any adventure in the old, perfectly entertaining cause it is challenging way again. Because the story and the characters and all just so deeply breathed the old spirit. But as there are no puzzle at all yet i could take sirious, it is kinda wasted. Just like telltale went on to the action and violence thing. I mean, i do like Tomb Raider and stuff. It's not like i am not interested in different kinds of games. But people, who made real adventures, don't you see that still after all those years there IS a market for adventure games?! If there would be every year one adventure game that would be good and would have good puzzles, i would buy each of them. Even every half year. In fact i like to imagine having everytime i ended one adventure game, the next one is coming ahead.

There was such a feeling at telltale. Yah well, sex and violence of course sells better. So what. I hope somewhen they make a oldschool point and click thing again. But i do not have too big hopes, as telltale changed within with its new games.

Im mean, anyway, somewhere somewhen, certainly soon, anyone will make an adventure again. I just so frustrated they nearly never do any good puzzles.

I just loved kinda this one genre most. There are moments in broken age where you nearly smell it coming back. Well, but it got the flavour, but no follow through.

And for me, that even feels a little like a betrail to me. Like, i was kinda romantic about that thought that there was someone who really cared for the fans and than … made a easy peasy somewhat, it had all to call it an adventure-thing.

I do like the game, i love the design and dialogs. I laughted while playing it (just this evening was testing the knife with plenty off stuff around) but as all of it was really awesome, why did they need to cut the most important part nearly completly out? Solving puzzles. Yes it got puzzles. But freakin easy AND as if that wasn't worse enough guided puzzles.

They totally only thought about those who allways said adventures are boring and don't even care. Well yes, there you got the perfect buyers on your hand. They certainly gonne be very loyal. So why even care about the oldschool-fans that waitet around 24 years for this game and backed the hell out of it? Nah, not even worth it considering any way for them increasing the difficulty!

And i have to say, anyone ANYone who made a adventure this days thought about that problem!

I mean, yes, double fine did aswell. But what a solution is this … easy peasy part I and than hard puzzle part II?

As if it would work - especially, yhea especially for those who like it easy peasy this doesn't work!

So why even make part one easy peasy!

Yes, they started with good intentions. But with just not thinking about the real loyal fans of the genre they kinda buried the genre even deeper.

I mean, i somewhat feel like, i would wish they would make AFTER broken age a new adventure that got all the features like nice puzzles and a more complex world, with more abilities to interact and do the random wrong but damn funny stuff.

But as i do feel as if they didn't care to much about those who like puzzles at all … well, there is a big crack in the trust i have in them now. The a next kickstarter … well i don't know - if they was planing to make some, they should have thought more about those who backed this at the first time. And not about those who kinde like the story but really don't care about adventures anyway.

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well they made a mistake, but by now they've realized it and hopefully might find a solution to make everyone happy - or at least us :P

i'm not quite sure how this could happen in the first place though, and i'd really, really like to see (or even just read) a statement from tim himself..

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Or maybe it even just me who is out for the next project.

I know, medacris, you just backed the game just as i did. So this game is the same way for you.

So maybe what double fine teached me, is, that i just should accept the fact that puzzles that are challenging is nothing anyone as an adventure game designer even cares about now a days anymore. I heard of Kentucky Road Zero in this forum and was kinda interested in it for about a minute … till i read "nice done, no real puzzles thou … ".

Good, okay. So those games are not for me anymore. I do still beliefe there are really enough people out there who love to use their smarts! I mean, we didn't build ur entired civilisation because humanity is stupid. And i do still beliefe if a perfect nice design, lovely characters and a beautiful world meet a nice and a really challenging puzzle design, this is gonne again create a big hit. For the good of adventure games.

But if the designers of the games just stopped believing in puzzles at all, i do accept that fact and do stop buying adventure games, unless the critics tell me that "wow, that damn great puzzles kept me awake the whole night and kept me thinking the next week" than i am fully back and amazed. But well. This way i am kinda done with adventure games for now.

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well they made a mistake, but by now they've realized it and hopefully might find a solution to make everyone happy - or at least us :P

i'm not quite sure how this could happen in the first place though, and i'd really, really like to see (or even just read) a statement from tim himself..

yhea, somehow i hope they learned something from that everywhere coming up critic "those puzzles are horrible easy"-thing.

And if they don't learn anything about it, i hope some one else out there, who wants to design games, gonne learn something about that!

Yhea. Somehow it's sad because tim is such a genius in writing, building characters and worlds. I do totally love the worlds of Broken Age.

I don't know. I have a bad feeling about the difficulty increase in any way. Because the difficulty starts from such a deeply low level.

Somewhen i realized like: "Man, they shurely won't change that whole game!" And when i read stuff like "I want part II that easy peasy, never played an adventure in my life" i am really loosing all hopes.

There is still a giant potential for greater puzzles. Everywhere people are talking about a hard mode great ideas popping up. Like that thing with a boat to reach the driftwood. Like the tree-spit throw it down from the clouds. Like that plant outside that ship need to have some more functions!

Like the maiden in the cloud not just simply handling us the shoes over! But maybe the shoes are so small, she doesn't get them of her feeds anymore! (could be a funny puzzle)

But that for, double fine at first would need to WANT make it harder. And i am not shure. They not really asked us in any way if we think they should change the gameplay. Or how they could change the gameplay. Or if they need to make a hard mode.

And they simply just can't make a perfectly challenging part II now, that part I was so easy and everyone who get throuhg part I wanne to hear the end of the story!

So if they don't increase the difficulty from part I, part II … sorry for saying so, just simply can't be any more harder anyway. I mean, really.

Maybe a bit harder. But as i said. The difficulty level is so incredible low. I don't know if they care about those opinions.

Maybe they even don't have the money for caring about them! Sadly.

I mean, they allready got a big bunch of money in their hand for the game. They allready made this decision. Some think it was a wrong decision. Me inculded. But i don't know, if they even gonne care. And they really do have to if there should be any really noticeable change in the difficulty of the gameplay.

Again, the difficulty is so incredible low! The only thing that i can think of, that would work, is a later added, uptdated, added to the real thing ((just dreaming) hard mode. But they need to want it. They need to care about it. I'm not shure if they reall gonne do.

So well, i gonne play part II anyway in anycase. But i allready own part II, it is not as if i have to decide now if really gonne buy the second part and if i really beliefe it is gonne be harder.

I just gonne play it, as i love the world anyway and if there is no satisfiyng gameplay, than it is like it is. I am allready getting prepared that if nothing gonne happen really about the difficulty, that i just gonne accept it, and than i am simply through with now a day adventures so far.

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Deponia did that for me, it had great graphics and some really great/hard puzzles.

Yhea, i allready thought about them plenty of times!

(i am kinda often was interested)

Mhm, but i'm not shure i so much care about the world and if i like the humor. Indeed those are important things for an adventure game for me too. That's the sad thing just now, that i loved grim fandango and Tim and the design team didn't fail at all in building once a again a incredible awesome world!

With awesome grapics! I somewhat hoped to have this grim fandango expieriecne again. Yes, well. I nearly got it, so it is really bugging me that just that thing adventure games ARE about, the puzzles, was a total mess. And nearly not there.

On the other side, if the puzzles are hard, i have to like the world around me cause i gonne spend a lot of time there. There for i gonne love the puzzles, for keeping me in that world! I felt that way with machinarium. Nah i am afraid i am a picky gamer anyway. Never the less i play many games i like. I love Indie games and stuff. So. Yhea. It don't have to be necessary adventures. I played a lot new adventures recently anyway. Maybe enough for now.

It had also its weaknesses, but i loved telltales Tales of Monkey Island. Especially i am a big fan from the second chapter. The last one was awesome too!

And the Sam and Max and the Devils Toybox was great too.

Those two games puzzles wasn't very hard, too. I have to say that! But they was just hard enough to keeping me thinking about them. They both got a nice enough difficulty level most of the time.

Okay, i have to say on the other side - to be very fair - telltale started back than also with a really really really low difficulty level at the Sam and Max Series. The first Series just left me also quite very unsatisfied by the difficulty.

So maybe that again is a good point: That double fine just might increase the level of complexity and difficulty from now on, just like in in the telltale games. That means, if double fine now even is interested in keep doing adventure games.

Also telltale not really ever reached completely a perfect level of difficulty. I don't know.

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I think you're looking at this entirely the wrong way.

First off, I definitely wanted to play these games as a kid. I was just too young. And I backed this, as you said, and I paid for as many other DF games as I could afford with my limited budget, so I don't get how you come off saying I'm not loyal or I won't stick around.

The only one betraying you is YOU. You want adventure games to be a private niche-y little club where nobody under 25 is welcome, and everyone has to prove themselves over and over to be a "real" fan. That's the real reason adventure games wouldn't sell. That's why we have a hard time selling comic books even to people who have seen every Batman movie or cartoon. Because you want to raise the entrance fee so incredibly high that nobody feels welcome. And that, to be honest, is insulting. And you know what? Maybe the game was too easy because you've played so many darn adventure games that NOTHING would be difficult for you anymore. You're too genre savvy for it to be a challenge. I got exactly what I wanted, and ten times more than I paid for. Nothing needs to be changed, save for the stray graphical and textual glitches. Act 1 was perfect.

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I was 14 when i played monkey island 3 in hard mode. -.-' It was the first adventure game i ever played!

And there still gonne be enough, more than enough now a day 14 year olds who would play broken age on hard mode!

If i today was 14 and would find broken age instead of monkey island, maybe i would spend 5 or such hours with it.

I totally would have as much - more fun - with a hard mode, as i had as a 14 years old, that had NEVER played ANY Adventure game his WHOLE life.

Maybe even you would have had - more fun - after you despretly tried something for an hour but was perfectly entertained by an heartfully detailled painted island and some really awesome characters anyway - and than solved it. Maybe than you even could stop having those complexes because you back than didn't play adventures but could say: hey, i just recently solved my first adventure-puzzle. Damn am i smart.

So medacris. You NEVER played an adventure game. You are the one that don't even know what you are talking about!

Why don't you just go, play an adventure game and than come back and telling me how you liked it?

Wtf … now i have to be told i am a kind of courious nerd-species, because i want a PUZZLE in a genre that you could most easy discribe as "You are in a story, and you have to solve puzzles to get on with that story as an reward"-thing.

Sorry. I would like see some people who like crosswords. Handled over a crossword the printer allready filled in a letter every second Box. Oh yes. He of course would be the bad one, because someone who never even tried filling a normal crossword feels like "he wants to establish a kind of snobistic club of super smart feeling word searchers from the last century"

Really. Just go play one normal difficult adventure game. As your parents never let you, it might even have some interesting effect on you? -.-'

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On the contrary, I believe Poplion would like everybody to realize the same things that I do, that they are capable of more than they give themselves credit for and that there is real fun to be had in solving what you call overly-challenging and illogical puzzles. I share that sentiment, but I doubt many will change their perceptions of their own game experiences and tastes, the same way we won't. But the reason is not to take all our toys home from the sandbox and not share them with everybody.

In any case I agree with his sentiment, if I had played these difficult adventure games for the first time today I would have so much MORE fun with them because I wasn't practiced at figuring things out and seeing patterns. It has to do with what you bring to the table when you play an adventure game. It's your attitude and your outlook. It's not experience or nostalgia. It's the reasons you're invested in it.

You can say that Act I was perfect....but not for everybody. It's subjective. And both are legitimate. And I don't believe it's possible to become so "genre-savvy" that nothing is difficult anymore. I'm currently playing Deponia, and I'm having a nice time trying to figure it all out. The game isn't taking me four hours. I spent almost a good two hours so far and I've had a great time. I've made progress, but I believe I'm far from the ending. (at least I hope I am) So far, I'm pleasantly surprised that it's no walk in the park. Same with Wadjet Eye's games.

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I think you're looking at this entirely the wrong way.

First off, I definitely wanted to play these games as a kid. I was just too young. And I backed this, as you said, and I paid for as many other DF games as I could afford with my limited budget, so I don't get how you come off saying I'm not loyal or I won't stick around.

Just to comment on this theory that you were "too young" to play these games as a kid... I got my start at 6 or 7 years old with Leisure Suit Larry 1, Space Quest, and the early Gobliiins games. Some of these had an actual text parser.

There's no such thing as "too young".

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Just to comment on this theory that you were "too young" to play these games as a kid... I got my start at 6 or 7 years old with Leisure Suit Larry 1, Space Quest, and the early Gobliiins games. Some of these had an actual text parser.

There's no such thing as "too young".

My mom was horrified I had even heard of 50 Shades of Grey, and I've almost graduated college, so I think I'd have to track down Leisure Suit Larry somewhere and play it in private. Although she pretty much limited me to Disney movies and Don Bluth, which weren't exactly squeaky-clean, either.

And I'm sorry you think I'm an idiot. I don't hate difficulty, and I'm not against it, but I know I'm an idiot, which is why I want something even I can accomplish on my own. Video games are our escape, we play them because life is hard and we need to have control and accomplishment to relieve stress.

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And i want to make at this point very very clear that i am a big supporter of the 2 difficulty-mode thing!

And that i am shure this game needs an easy mode! So it is not as if i want to take anything away from you!

(even as i can tell you, the more time you needed to solve a puzzle, the more you gonne be surprised of yourself.

So yes, musically inspired suggested right!

So you think when i started monkey island the first time i wasn't like "Oh damn, why did i even buy this game … i am now since 10 min in this stupid room … ahh" but than you - get into it - very soon. And that is a good feeling. Because there was a … nah? Challenge. If i would think oldschool adventure games are easy peasy, you might go ahead and call me a arrogant nerd who don't want others to have fun. But the fun was that i didn't find those puzzles easy!

I most certainly was slower than those super gaming freaks that did everything in nearly more than the half time than me! But whatever! I just loved beeing in that world a bit longer!)

But if you like the easy mode, just want to have fun and enjoy the grapics. I EVEN TOTALLY UNDERSTAND you that way!

But in fact it is me of whom something was taken away from!

The joy of having solved something that wasn't easy! The joy of beeing to stupid to solve that puzzle, but, beeing in a beautiful cravted world for that matter and having some funny lines from the nicly done characters around me, while i am searching for a solution.

And it is even allways my point, that they can't build an easy peasy first part, and THAN include all those, like yourself, out with an super nice hard game.

You can't first make an easy peasy was it even a puzzle? game that is more appealing to people who don't like puzzles. And than have a second part where the puzzles get super hard and challenging.

So that why i am telling everyone who wants to hear: This concept doesn't work! When they don't increase the difficulty of part one, it's not even fair to increase the difficulty of part II too much!

So there needs to be a hard and easy mode for both parts and for the whole game!

So there everyone is gonne be satisfied. Me too! You are allready happy. Good for you. So now leave me alone in my grieve haha (just kidding ;) all in one i even liked that game. It is only that whole "lets make adventure games super easy - trend is really making me angry … because people like you not even once expirienced if it would work for them this way! And again: I do like easy modes!)

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As someone who begged my parents to buy Myst and then played about an hour of it, I would be surprised if more than 500,000 people beat that game.

The problem with challenging games now is that if the challenge is simply just a puzzle people can easily google it. It was more difficult in the 90s especially for recently released games. A game like Braid is trivial if you look up a guide to the solution and really it takes away all the fun anyways. More people will play challenging games and have their hands held with a guide I think.

Considering that it sold over 10 Million copies and was one of the main reasons publishers were poking other developers and pointing them to those numbers saying “Hey guys, why don’t you make an Adventure game like that?" producing a large number of Myst-clones up to today I highly doubt that number: http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/oct/18/myst-creators-cyan-inc-launch-kickstarter/

Cyan said it sold roughly 10 million copies of “Myst” or its successor versions from 1993 through 2012.

That said, this is why I don’t think developers should pay that close attention to metrics when it comes to things like “how many people have finished our game” or similar, I discussed this about 2 years ago here: http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/6790/P125/#215136

The simple matter of it is, they can tell you how far someone has gotten in a game, but they can’t tell you how much fun they’ve had or what the reason was if they don’t continue. I also used this example back then of playing Super Meat Boy for over 15 hours and damn I had some fun with that game even though I never finished it (I might some day).

Similar with a lot of console games in the past, I think there were quite a lot I never actually finished, things like Battletoads or some of the Super Mario games but I had fun playing them for hours and hours. On the other hand, something that you can finish in 3-4 hours but never challenges you gives you stats that say “a high number of people finished our game” but never how much fun they’ve had doing so due to any lack of challenge.

I can see from your posts that you apparently didn’t like Myst, I believe I tried a demo briefly of a few of these kind of games and never got into them because they seemed all puzzle at the expense of story, characters, humor and many other elements I liked about other Adventure games (and they were 3D to boot), but I would never dream to for instance back their new Obduction game and tell them to make a Lucas Arts Adventure game instead because I really liked those which is kind of somewhat happening here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cyaninc/obduction

They still seem to be having a solid user base to fund a new game and I might even play it down the line, given that it will have Oculus Rift support and that is probably the one thing in gaming I am looking forward to the most at the moment.

I prefer easier, more approachable games. It's the best way (I think) to get into a genre I'm previously unfamiliar with, it isn't too obtuse or intimidating, and I know some people (gamers and otherwise) who get really discouraged unless they know they'll be able to do something. I think that's why some people avoided gaming until smartphone games became really popular, they had this idea in their head that gaming was super-complicated, expensive, and clique-y, some kind of private club where if you hadn't been there since Day 1, you weren't invited. And I want gaming to be as open and approachable as possible. I want every person to be able to have at least one video game they enjoy playing.

And that’s your prerogative and I’m happy for you, go ahead and play all the tablet and mobile phone games you like, I believe some near effortless ones have already been brought up in this thread: Kentucky Route Zero, Botanicula, Superbrothers: Sword & Sworcery. They are all reminiscent of old Adventure games somehow but really aren’t, they are Casual tablet games and you might have fun. There isn’t exactly a lack of developers appealing to that kind of market overall. In fact nowadays, you’d find articles even saying that gaming consoles are dead in favor of tablets getting more commonplace.

If a player ends up not liking a game and he quits, then he quits. You can never satisfy everyone and that is a reality of any sort of creative endeavor. I was just very much hoping that a KickStarter banking itself on making a “classic” and “old-school” game with pictures of Day of the Tentacle, Monkey Island and Grim Fandango used as motivation (There’s even a verb use scene in the KickStarter video,

) and how much Adventure gaming fans have been overlooked over the years and publishers wouldn't want to have anything to do with it (I believe they would be very open to Casual games, in fact they were buying casual gaming companies like crazy a few years back) might actually want to end up making a classic/old-school Adventure game.

They promised one thing and delivered something different. It’s an okay game and I’m not really in any way sorry I backed, but not resembling what they made a lot of people believe.

I’m sure you would think similar if you backed a game in the hope that you’d get Angry Birds and it turns into an impossible Jump&Run; like Battletoads or if you backed a “classic RPG” and got something reminiscent of Mass Effect 3 instead (or the other way around).

I think you're looking at this entirely the wrong way.

First off, I definitely wanted to play these games as a kid. I was just too young. And I backed this, as you said, and I paid for as many other DF games as I could afford with my limited budget, so I don't get how you come off saying I'm not loyal or I won't stick around.

The only one betraying you is YOU. You want adventure games to be a private niche-y little club where nobody under 25 is welcome, and everyone has to prove themselves over and over to be a "real" fan. That's the real reason adventure games wouldn't sell. That's why we have a hard time selling comic books even to people who have seen every Batman movie or cartoon. Because you want to raise the entrance fee so incredibly high that nobody feels welcome. And that, to be honest, is insulting. And you know what? Maybe the game was too easy because you've played so many darn adventure games that NOTHING would be difficult for you anymore. You're too genre savvy for it to be a challenge. I got exactly what I wanted, and ten times more than I paid for. Nothing needs to be changed, save for the stray graphical and textual glitches. Act 1 was perfect.

And I think you are looking at this the wrong way, there is nothing keeping you from picking up and playing some great Adventure games if you want to play them, try starting with something newer like the Monkey Island: Special Editions with Hint systems and/or Telltale games, Leisure Suit Larry Reloaded if you are into that then something like Loom or The Dig might be candidates and work your way back through the catalogue of Steam and GoG. There isn’t anyone keeping you (or anyone else) out with a lock and as I said before I managed to play some of these games back when I was like 8-10 (I think Simon the Sorcerer was one of my first PC Adventure games and to this day I still think the second part is one of the greatest ever made :P), sometimes even despite not understanding English (I actually learned most of my English from playing Adventure games and RPGs). Are you trying to tell me that you are more “idiotic” than a 8-10 year old with a language impediment?

And personally I don’t want any “niche-y” clubs or whatever you are implying. I don’t care how many people end up playing them (if 10+ Million as Myst did, which was certainly not the easiest game or just 500.000, but I’m sure Double Fine would think different). I just want some more games that I can properly enjoy again. I don’t think I will get many of them if even a KickStarter specifically saying it will make such a game fails to deliver and designs it to be, as you put it “idiot proof”.

I also don’t think that trying to do something caught between two markets and not fully satisfying either is the best way to get there or get those sales and I brought up my case in regards to that in the opening post itself. You are not going to sell many Casual gamers on the promise of playing an Adventure game if they generally don't like them and you aren't going to sell many Adventure games to Adventure gamers on the promise of it being a Casual game with hardly any challenge.

This likely goes for your comic example too. I'm not sure what this "welcoming" rhetoric is lately, I either want to read a book because it seems interesting or I don't, I either want to watch a TV series or movie or I don't. I see it the same with games and I stopped reading comics long ago because there seemed to be more worthwhile things to do. A red carpet and a *this is for you* cake with my name on it will hardly change my opinion one way or the other. If I were in your place and actually wanted to play more Adventure games I would go out there and do it, if I didn't I wouldn't.

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wasn't this supposed to be a game for the fans? to be like the classic lucasarts ones?

so....how can people who never played one of them - maybe not even an adventure at all - tell "us" about the difficulty?

don't get me wrong: i don't think you shouldn't give feedback...on story, music, voice etc - maybe even the ui...but about the puzzles? maybe if there are logical issues or something, but the complexity? you're a beginner!

"we don't need a harder ski run...that guy who just started skiing yesterday says it's hard enough - he even struggled with it! the better ones you ask? well, they can ski down there, too, can't way? no, they'll never get bored! how dare you think that! the still can enjoy the great landscape - no, they can enjoy it even more as the don't have to care about the track!"

having that said, i'm absolutely in favor of the 2 difficulty levels as long as it's doable in any way - if not i say give "us" the classic challenge, because we were told it would be a game for "us" like the ones we beloved ones from our youth ;)

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For me, yep... The game needs a Megamonkey mode :)

My first adventure game was Fate of Atlantis with 13 yo... From there, I went to all Lucasarts catalog, a few Sierra series (like Space Quests, Larrys), and a few conversational games (although my English level was sooo poor)... and played every adventure I have the chance to pick until now, so maybe I'm a bit more trained that it should be vs the global market, but not vs people here, at the backer forum. So it surprised me how easy BA is, compared to the classic? no... compared to ANY adventure I played on the last 20 years.

You get a lot of objects by just ASKING... can I have this? Yep... and can I have this other thing? yep... On normal adventures, if you want something, you need to trade it for this other object, that you can't have until you talk this other person that gives that thing that opens the... blablabla... Or, in case of BA, just "hey Curtis, can I have your wall art?.... Sure why not... just keep it" ¬_¬

And begginers can play hard adventures anyway... My wife recently played her first adventure. It was Fate of Atlantis... and now we are playing Gemini Rue (great game, by the way) and she doesn't have any problem so don't worry if you think a harder game is not suitable for you, it is.

Anyway... This part I, was a great experience. I loved everything about it.. ok, there was no challenge at all, but I loved it anyway for all the other things (story, dialogs, graphics and music).

But I would like to have a easy+hard mode... there is so much room clever, logical and difficult ramping puzzles. If not, all those that backed an adventure game like in the old times (like Grim Fandango or Dott), will not get it.

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Yeah, I think all this talk about broader audience is a complete red herring. I don't think Tim has ever expressed any feeling of pressure to cater for a broader audience - quite the opposite in fact. And as some people have pointed out, it's really not at all clear that it's possible to attract more people with easier puzzles - especially because the only way to tell how easy the puzzles are is by playing through them in the first place.

People who think the puzzles are too easy are of course welcome to express their opinions about that but this constant second guessing of the motives behind it is nothing more than a distraction.

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Like I said, there is something preventing me. I'm broke, and I refuse to illegally download them. The fact that some of them have never been ported to Mac also doesn't help. We didn't have a ton of money when I was a kid, either. It's not like I didn't want to play them. I backed this because I wanted to make up for that. I backed it also because I'm familiar with Tim's writing, and I know I like his stuff.

The comic book comment was a response to the kinds of fans who have read 50+ years of canon on a character, and get annoyed when a newbie comes in and might want something to make the story easier to get into without having to read as much. "Newbies' opinions don't matter. We don't want you here. You're not allowed to like this." It just makes me feel really unwelcome both with adventure game fans, or gamers in general, and comic book fans. That's why I put myself down earlier. I felt horrible, I still do. It's like I'm not permitted to be happy with the game.

I think the "broader audience" thing was to avoid what happened with Psychonauts and Brütal Legend, the "critically loved but didn't do well financially" problem.

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Like I said, there is something preventing me. I'm broke, and I refuse to illegally download them. The fact that some of them have never been ported to Mac also doesn't help.

ScummVM can help you play most of the classics, even on a Mac: http://scummvm.org/

And some games like Beneath a Still Sky are now freeware, and can be legally downloaded for free: http://www.gog.com/game/beneath_a_steel_sky

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