• Announcements

    • Spaff

      These Forums are closing!   10/04/2019

      After more than a decade of serving this community well, these forums have finally run their course and it's time to close them down. That doesn't mean we want to close the doors on our community, quite the opposite!
      Our discord server grows ever busier by the day, and we encourage all Double Fine fans to meet us over there www.discord.gg/doublefine In a short time these forums will become a read only archive and will remain that way until they become needed again.
      You never know, it might happen.  There is... a prophecy. Thank you all for being part of these forums, and remember that the fun is definitely not over - so please join us on Discord! Love ya, Spaff, Tim, Info Cow, and all of Double Fine.
Sign in to follow this  
eladalfassa

[BUG?][RC8] Default interaction changed from Drag to Click

Recommended Posts

The problem is not with the dragging itself, but the un-intuativity of having to click an item twice just to examine it.

I don't see how it is un-intuitive when the magnifying glass icon thingy appears. That is the international videogame symbol for "examine".

But not the international video-game symbol for double click.

I should point out that since Broken Age is a single-click oriented game, having to dobule-click something in it feels really weird (in addition to all I said in my previous comments)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I thought the new mode was good in principle but a little wonky. It does effectively make the item look-descriptions a bit less likely to be heard, and maybe puts the less-developed item-use descriptions more in the forefront. It's pretty impossible for me to know, but this does seem like a good step difficulty-wise -- since a lot of those look-descriptions are kind of unwelcome-giveaways. The implementation is still less intuitive feeling than using both mouse buttons (right click for look!), unfortunately, and it sort of shines a light at the less developed on-use descriptions. Pretty bold change this close to release, either way.

Thanks for your thoughtful feedback on this (to everyone). It is elementary for us to switch to Drag as default and this particular change is actually not very high risk from code side. We made Click mode default because we wanted feedback on it. :D

Keep in mind regarding right-click that most Macs don't have a right button on their mice.

lol Macs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol Macs.

Dude, this is a helpful feedback thread. If you have nothing constructive to say, piss off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol Macs.

Dude, this is a helpful feedback thread. If you have nothing constructive to say, piss off.

My comment is useful and on point if we pc gamers have to suffer because Macs only have one button.

EDIT: Besides, couldn't they do something like Option-Click for Right Click or something like that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol, what did you do to the "&!%@"-Filter, @eladalfassa?

Anyway, here's my opinion (not having played the game, mind). There's an not unsubstantial part of me that wants to argue, if there are people who seriously give up playing if they don't understand the controls, and won't even bother to read a help file or a manual to figure it out, the game is better off without them anyway. This was a game for backers, after all.

I really do think, however, that most people will get it to work. And considering that drag & drop is unintuitive for me (you combine items by clicking on them, not by dragging them), I'd personally quite like if drag & drop stayed default off.

.

Here's a question, though @DF.

If you already can (and did) map things to the second mouse button anyway (the one that Mac-users don't have :P), why couldn't you also map the examine-function to it? For every non-Mac user, that should solve the problem (and we'd be another step closer to "classic adventure game" ...).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not using right click does not constitute as suffering, and option+click is too cumbersome in my opinion. Anyway, there are ways to contribute to a discussion and saying "lol macs" is not one of them. Your other comment is fine, but "lol macs" isn't.

As for right click, besides the Mac argument there's also the point that Broken Age was designed with single-left-click in mind, right click doing something else in the inventory will confuse people as they'll try to right click everything in attempt to get different results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lol, what did you do to the "&!%@"-Filter, @eladalfassa?

Anyway, here's my opinion (not having played the game, mind). There's an not unsubstantial part of me that wants to argue, if there are people who seriously give up playing if they don't understand the controls, and won't even bother to read a help file or a manual to figure it out, the game is better off without them anyway. This was a game for backers, after all.

I really do think, however, that most people will get it to work. And considering that drag & drop is unintuitive for me (you combine items by clicking on them, not by dragging them), I'd personally quite like if drag & drop stayed default off.

Here's a question, though. If you already can map things to the second mouse button anyway (the one that Mac-users don't have :P), why couldn't you also map the examine-function to it? For every non-Mac user, that should solve the problem.

I did nothing to the filter. I guess "piss off" is not considered rude enough in the filter's eyes.

I disagree that this is a game for backers. Yes, we backers helped made this game come true, but this game is important to the financial future of Double Fine. In addition to that, sales of the first act will fund the development of the second act, so you'd probably want that as many people as possible will buy it. And since this is clearly an "All Family" game (the same way Adventure Time is "All Family": nice bright visual and seemingly innocent on first glance, but dark and full of adult-humor if you look at it closely) you'd want to make the controls as simple as possible so even kids could play it.

And since every single interaction in game was designed with single-left-click on mind and drag&drop; inventory was the most thoroughly tested method of the two, I think it'd be safer and wiser to keep drag&drop; as default, and leave "click" for people who are used to old adventure games or simply like it more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But not the international video-game symbol for double click.

I should point out that since Broken Age is a single-click oriented game, having to dobule-click something in it feels really weird (in addition to all I said in my previous comments)

But you don't double-click. You click twice. And no, those are not the same thing. You don't need to double-click to examine an item. You just click on it to pick it up, then click again while it's inside the inventory. That's two clicks, just as picking it up and using it on something is two clicks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But not the international video-game symbol for double click.

I should point out that since Broken Age is a single-click oriented game, having to dobule-click something in it feels really weird (in addition to all I said in my previous comments)

But you don't double-click. You click twice. And no, those are not the same thing. You don't need to double-click to examine an item. You just click on it to pick it up, then click again while it's inside the inventory. That's two clicks, just as picking it up and using it on something is two clicks.

It's actually either click-twice or double-click. Both work, both feel weird - especially if you click it and then move the mouse ever so slightly out of the small box of the item slot, and then it's confusing because your cursor is the item and you're clicking on the empty slot and not the item itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather than giving my opinion of how other people will or won't play the game, I'll give you my feedback as to how *I* played the game. I'm not an adventure game fan, so I had no preconceived notion as to what was meant to happen. First thing I did was drag an item from my inventory; easy! It fits with my computer UX knowledge - if I want a file to move from one folder to another I drag it into that folder.

Since people are all individuals (I'm not!), you could adopt what most other games are doing these days: the first time you need to use something from your inventory, detect what the user does. Whatever they do is then the default. Make it obvious - if playing Vella, when the sister takes off towards the house, make a key fly out of her pocket that Vella catches and the inventory will ding and flash, then when you get to the door Vella can say something like 'Hmm very mature, locking me out' then make the only available option to use the key. At this point the user is either going to drag the key onto the door, or they're going to click on the key, then click on the door.

However you'll need new code, animations and voice so it's probably a bit late to implement something like this. Just my 2 cents :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing in my 2 cents. I found the new interaction style quite inconsistent. Objects behave differently after you clicked on them once, even if you put them back in your inventory. It's great to have the option because people complained but the default should really be the drag interaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback on this (to everyone). It is elementary for us to switch to Drag as default and this particular change is actually not very high risk from code side. We made Click mode default because we wanted feedback on it. :D

Keep in mind regarding right-click that most Macs don't have a right button on their mice.

lol Macs.

Actually, LOL @ you dude... Apple mices have had a right button since 2005 (trackpads probably even before that). I haven't met a mac user who didn't know about the right click in TEN YEARS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's actually either click-twice or double-click. Both work, both feel weird

Could be. Didn't feel weird to me - you click twice anyway (once to pick up an item, once to use it on/with something).

But note that this is a matter of preference and it is misleading to use the label "[bUG]" in the thread's title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback on this (to everyone). It is elementary for us to switch to Drag as default and this particular change is actually not very high risk from code side. We made Click mode default because we wanted feedback on it. :D

Keep in mind regarding right-click that most Macs don't have a right button on their mice.

lol Macs.

Actually, LOL @ you dude... Apple mices have had a right button since 2005 (trackpads probably even before that). I haven't met a mac user who didn't know about the right click in TEN YEARS.

Well, it was DF_Anna who pointed that out as a reason for double-clicking rather than right-clicking...

I also think that just right-clicking would be the way to go. How do Mac people with one-button mice open the contextual menus in every other program? Perhaps that's the way it should be handled, since they're clearly the exception here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How do Mac people with one-button mice open the contextual menus in every other program?

CTRL + Click would be the way to go, but since the system is basically built around "drag & drop" there usually is a different action than doing a secondary click. Having said that, I personally don't know any Mac users (including myself) who haven't programmed their mice to do a right click or just use mice from a different brand (e.g. Logitech) that have a physical right button.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think right clicking is a good thing because it will be confusing as the inventory would be the only place with two verbs. But, if drag&drop; will be the default (and single left click on that mode will be un-changed, ie. it will examine the object like it does now) then I don't care how interaction in "click" mode would work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I prefer the new default for RC8. When I first picked up the game, my instinct was to first click on the inventory item, then click where I wanted to use it. I was confused at first when this didn't work. I found the drag method to be unintuitive for a point-and-click adventure game. It might work for touch interfaces, but I found it laborious for a mouse control.

I would not want the drag method to be the default for the PC ports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think right clicking is a good thing because it will be confusing as the inventory would be the only place with two verbs.

It is already the only place with two verbs, even in drag-drop mode:

1) click (inspect)

2) drag (use)

If you want the characters to be able to inspect the items in their inventory, then inventory will always technically have (at least) two verbs. Whether they're both executed by a single click of two different buttons or two different "ways" of clicking with the same button is irrelevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I prefer the new default for RC8. When I first picked up the game, my instinct was to first click on the inventory item, then click where I wanted to use it. I found the drag method to be unintuitive for a point-and-click adventure game. It might work for touch interfaces, but I found it laborious for a mouse control.

I would not want the drag method to be the default for the PC ports.

1) It's not a port

2) That's only because you are using to old-school point and click games. New players might not be. And since we proved countless of times "click" mode has many shortcomings in its implementation in Broken Age, I think it'd be better if "drag" will be the default.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And since we proved countless of times "click" mode has many shortcomings in its implementation in Broken Age...

Whoa whoa, what?

When has anything of the sort been "proven"? I don't think there's anything wrong with click mode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think right clicking is a good thing because it will be confusing as the inventory would be the only place with two verbs.

It is already the only place with two verbs, even in drag-drop mode:

1) click (inspect)

2) drag (use)

If you want the characters to be able to inspect the items in their inventory, then inventory will always technically have (at least) two verbs. Whether they're both executed by a single click of two different buttons or two different "ways" of clicking with the same button is irrelevant.

Not really. in "drag" mode, single click is "interact". When you click an item in your inventory it's not always inspect. I don't think you can call eating a peach or talking to a spoon "inspection" and keep a straight face.

Nevertheless, even if it was a saparte verb, it is clear that you cannot drag anything apart from inventory items, as everything else in game is mostly-static. If right-click inspect was to be implemented in "click" mode, you would have no way of knowing for sure that everything in game only responds to left click and right click is only useful on inventory items. This will be confusing to new players, even those who played adventure games before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And since we proved countless of times "click" mode has many shortcomings in its implementation in Broken Age...

Whoa whoa, what?

When has anything of the sort been "proven"? I don't think there's anything wrong with click mode.

Have you even read the thread? Many problems have been raised (lack of ovbious hint on how to interact with an item in your inventory, general wonkiness, timing of the change), not only by me. And people who said they liked click mode never bothered to explain themselves or properly debate most of the points raised against it.

In addition to that, as a software (and operation system) developer I'm a firm beliver that major changes in UI and interaction method made few days before release without sufficient user studies are very likely to backfire in a horrible way. Interaction design is not easy, and user-testing is more than just listening to people in the forum: it's watching people use the product and seeing where they had difficulties. Since extensive user testing has been preformed on the drag method, and there is not enough time to properly test the click method, I think keeping drag the default is safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not really. in "drag" mode, single click is "interact". When you click an item in your inventory it's not always inspect. I don't think you can call eating a peach or talking to a spoon "inspection" and keep a straight face.

Irrelevant. It is still two verbs (i.e. two different actions) - you either eat it or you give it to someone else.

If right-click inspect was to be implemented in "click" mode, you would have no way of knowing for sure that everything in game only responds to left click and right click is only useful on inventory items. This will be confusing to new players, even those who played adventure games before.

I seriously doubt that would somehow confuse anyone.

People would just try right-clicking on things (as I have when I first played the game) and would see that it's something that works only in the inventory. Problem solved, no confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have you even read the thread? Many problems have been raised (lack of ovbious hint on how to interact with an item in your inventory, general wonkiness, timing of the change), not only by me. And people who said they liked click mode never bothered to explain themselves or properly debate most of the points raised against it.

Yes, I have read the thread, but it seems to me like you haven't, or at least have forgotten the posts which have disagreed with you.

I, personally, have presented a couple counter-arguments to the supposed problems with the click mode and I feel I have explained myself quite adequately. It is not my problem if you didn't bother to read what I wrote.

Regardless, even if I hadn't presented any counter-arguments or attempted to debate, you still have in no way "proven" that the click mode is faulty. You have just expressed your opinion about it. I don't see how that's proof.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually, LOL @ you dude... Apple mices have had a right button since 2005 (trackpads probably even before that). I haven't met a mac user who didn't know about the right click in TEN YEARS.

Hmm. You obviously don't work too often with Mac users. I was in two separate Mac-based offices in London last week -- I met several users who only had one mouse button configured. One of them even looked at me confused when I suggested they "right click" on something. (No I'm not joking -- I'm not even exaggerating!) OSX is just designed to be able to function like that -- you don't need a second button.

Plus, from my own experience with Macs, their mice do not lend themselves to multi button functionality, so that's probably another reason why people prefer the simple one button configuration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I seriously doubt that would somehow confuse anyone.

You have never done any actual user testing, have you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you've ever done user testing, you'll know that nobody can "argue" a good user interface. You can only test for one. What's obvious to you, is not necessarily obvious for the user. I design CMS interfaces for websites for a living, and, trust me, you can never make things too easy for users.

The best argument for leaving the "Drag" option as default is simply that it's been tested more. (Through all the complaints about the interface -- and the majority of users were fine with it -- not one person complained that they didn't know how to do something in the game: That's perfect.)

Hardly anyone, by comparison, has used the new interface, so put simply: There's more of a risk.

How much of a risk is up to DF to decide upon, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I have read the thread, but it seems to me like you haven't, or at least have forgotten the posts which have disagreed with you.

I, personally, have presented a couple counter-arguments to the supposed problems with the click mode and I feel I have explained myself quite adequately. It is not my problem if you didn't bother to read what I wrote.

Regardless, even if I hadn't presented any counter-arguments or attempted to debate, you still have in no way "proven" that the click mode is faulty. You have just expressed your opinion about it. I don't see how that's proof.

I can assure you that I read every single post on this thread and thought about it before I made any reply. If I forgot a specific argument it is only because it is a long thread and it's 1am already, I'm quite tired.

I did not mean to disrespect you or disregard your opinion or any other opinion and contribution to this thread, except maybe the "lol macs" comment someone made which was out of place in a constructive discussion.

I agree that proven might not be the right word. "shown" or "demonstrated" or even "argued" would have been a better choice.

For the sake of continuing this discussion: How do you expect users to figure out it is a double click (or right click for that matter)? You should remember that most potential players probably have not played any point&click; adventure ever. Heck, I'm 20 and the only "classic" point and click adventure I played was DOTT, and I didn't even manage that without a tutorial (I remember finding the verbs in DOTT very cofusing, I'd click "use" and then click on an item and it resets to "look at").

Do you understand that since this is a cross-platform game, right click might not be an option? (and fwiw I used some Windows laptops in the past which did not have right click on their touchpad).

Do you think introducing this change so close to release is risk-free? Remember that the success of the first part of the game is critical to the funding of Broken Age Act 2 and the future of Dobule Fine, adventure games, and crowd-funded games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's only because you are using to old-school point and click games. New players might not be.

I thought the game was primarily backed by fans of old-school point-and-click games; if that's the case, why would we gear the game primarily to new users?

This new-user-usability argument is moot anyway. In the non-drag mode, you can still drag items out of your inventory to use them, so whichever item-use scheme the player chooses instinctively will work; the only difference being that you have to click twice to inspect an inventory item instead of once, and I think this would be handled well with a discrete 'View' or 'Inspect' control either in your inventory or mapped to a button input.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can assure you that I read every single post on this thread and thought about it before I made any reply. If I forgot a specific argument it is only because it is a long thread and it's 1am already, I'm quite tired.

I did not mean to disrespect you or disregard your opinion or any other opinion and contribution to this thread, except maybe the "lol macs" comment someone made which was out of place in a constructive discussion.

I agree that proven might not be the right word. "shown" or "demonstrated" or even "argued" would have been a better choice.

No problem. Debates of any kind tend to get heated and get coupled with bad wording, especially on the Internet and especially in the wee hours of the night.

For the sake of continuing this discussion: How do you expect users to figure out it is a double click (or right click for that matter)?

As I've said before, it is actually not double-click. It is one click to pick up an item, and another click while holding the item inside the inventory to inspect it (or eat it or whatever). When talking about mouse controls, it is important to differentiate between two regular clicks and a double-click. The only reason why double-clicking also works for inspecting items is because the game doesn't actually interpret a double-click as a double-click but as two separate clicks, so you get the same effect (one click picks up the object, the other inspects it).

And, as I've also said before, it is not difficult to figure out that clicking while holding an item inside the inventory inspects it because the magnifying glass icon appears beside it. That iconography (magnifying glass = inspect) is not something which is unique to adventure games, or to video games at all actually. I can't vouch for cultural differences in e.g. east Asia or Africa, but it is definitely a universal iconography in the "Western" (Europe + Americas) culture, for which the game is intended anyway (which is obvious from the languages it is translated into).

Do you understand that since this is a cross-platform game, right click might not be an option? (and fwiw I used some Windows laptops in the past which did not have right click on their touchpad).

Not a problem at all -- I'm pretty sure the "click" option is available only on desktop systems (Linux, Windows and Mac OS) anyway. (Btw, when I say "desktop" I'm including laptops as well. It's just an umbrella term I use to differentiate those from smartphones, tablets, gaming consoles etc.) I agree that right-click for inspecting items may be a poor choice because right-click may not be available even on some desktop systems (notably Mac computers which use the Mac mice and Mac laptops like MacBook Air). However, the only reason the right-click alternative came about in the discussion is because the click-click to inspect items was seen as something which needs to be fixed in the first place. Personally, I think it doesn't, so there's no need to introduce any right-clicking anyway.

Do you think introducing this change so close to release is risk-free? Remember that the success of the first part of the game is critical to the funding of Broken Age Act 2 and the future of Dobule Fine, adventure games, and crowd-funded games.

Nothing is risk-free. However, I'm pretty sure you're terribly overestimating the potential damage clicking two times to inspect an item could ever cause.

I don't see how that would even happen -- "BLAGH, I have to click two times to make the character inspect an item they have in their inventory?! MADNESS! This game SUCKS! This is also a clear indication that all adventure games as well as all crowd-funded games also SUCK!!!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this