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eladalfassa

[BUG?][RC8] Default interaction changed from Drag to Click

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That's only because you are using to old-school point and click games. New players might not be.

I thought the game was primarily backed by fans of old-school point-and-click games; if that's the case, why would we gear the game primarily to new users?

This new-user-usability argument is moot anyway. In the non-drag mode, you can still drag items out of your inventory to use them, so whichever item-use scheme the player chooses instinctively will work; the only difference being that you have to click twice to inspect an inventory item instead of once, and I think this would be handled well with a discrete 'View' or 'Inspect' control either in your inventory or mapped to a button input.

1) You want this game to sell as many copies as possible. I explained the reason why countless of times. Even if you are selfish and don't care about the future of Double Fine (and I'm not trying to say you are), you want Act 2, right? If you watched the documentary, it has been explained very clearly that the development of act 2 will be funded from sales of Act 1.

2) Dragging in click mode feels wonky. This is a personal opinion not backed by facts.

3) The "new user usability" argument is not about the drag operation itself, but rather the lack of proper way to convey to the user they need/can click twice on an item to "interact" with it (it's not just description. Sometimes it's actual use, ie. -slight spoilers- grabbing-gary's remote control).

4) Even if you ignore all my arguments (and the mac argument) against right click, I think it is too late to add something like that, the game will be released in less than 2 days! It is not wise to make code changes which aren't bugfixes so close to release.

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Well, this goes back to what I tried to point out earlier. By rights, this should have been a game for people who already knew what to do, so it'd be a moot point. "Potential players that have not played any point & click" would ... well, not be irrelevant exactly, but certainly secondary. The only reasons this is even a discussion is that DF changed the target audience.

I still maintain, however, that despite this change most people who will play the game will know what to do. Certainly most backers will, and that should count for something, no?

Edit:

Even if you are selfish and don't care about the future of Double Fine (and I'm not trying to say you are)

LOL. What a wonderful way to argue. Luckily, I don't mind going there. Official disclaimer: I am selfish and don't care about the future of Double Fine. I only care about my game (and the funding of Act II with the sales of Act I was off the table FYI). So now what?

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1) You want this game to sell as many copies as possible. I explained the reason why countless of times. Even if you are selfish and don't care about the future of Double Fine (and I'm not trying to say you are), you want Act 2, right? If you watched the documentary, it has been explained very clearly that the development of act 2 will be funded from sales of Act 1.

Do you honestly believe the "click" control scheme is so bad and will itself alone have such a detrimental effect on the sales of the game and that the "drag-drop" control scheme is so much better that, if they make the "click" the default, the game's sales will be a total failure and they will not be able to make Act 2, whereas if they made the "drag-drop" the default the game's sales would be astronomically better in comparison?

I mean seriously, man, your arguments are just getting more and more vapid by the minute.

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I explained the reason why countless of times.

I guess I haven't read any of the threads where you've explained it.

The "new user usability" argument is not about the drag operation itself, but rather the lack of proper way to convey to the user they need/can click twice on an item to "interact" with it (it's not just description. Sometimes it's actual use, ie. -slight spoilers- grabbing-gary's remote control).

Great! We've established a root problem. Why isn't the interaction being explained?

Even if you ignore all my arguments (and the mac argument) against right click...

I've seen and understand the right-click argument; this is why I suggested a discrete control in the inventory, which likely isn't necessary if DF can find a simple way to explain the control scheme.

I think it is too late to add something like that, the game will be released in less than 2 days! It is not wise to make code changes which aren't bugfixes so close to release.

I agree, but who's to say it's not something that can be retroactively fit to the game between now and the full game*'s release?

* I am, of course, assuming that it's not just Act 2 being released in the future, but a full, cohesive version of Broken Age. MINERVA: Metastasis was originally released in this fashion; its four chapters were released episodically, but each release removed the previous chapters' fade-to-black, cliffhanger endings, leaving players with a seamless experience (Barring loading screens, of course). This is in contrast to, say, the first couple episodic Sam & Max games, where it's clear that time passes between episodes.

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3) The "new user usability" argument is not about the drag operation itself, but rather the lack of proper way to convey to the user they need/can click twice on an item to "interact" with it

Once again, the "proper way to convey to the user they need/can click twice" is already there -- when you hold an item in the inventory, a magnifying glass icon appears, clearly indicating that clicking once more will make the character inspect the held item.

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Here would be donccolinni long and polite comment if I wasn't so darn lazy

You make few very good points, but I think the main problem with the item having the looking-glass icon on it is that it moves with the item, which becomes part of the cursor, which is confusing. It makes me think "inspect with", it feels as if I'm interacting with the rectangle where the object was, and not the object itself. Also, it's not always inspection. If I recall correctly grabbing-gary's control button was activated by "examining" it. Talking with your spoon is not exactly examination either,and that makes the looking-glass icon a bad metaphor.

My suggestion (is it really mine? didn't someone suggest it in the thread before? I'm too lazy to look. Either way, I like it) to improve the click mode would be having a portion of the item covered by a small looking glass icon: clicking on it would be "interaction" with the item while clicking on the rest of it would "pick it up" for use with another items.

And this bring me back to my point about risk. risk is not only introduction of bugs or not knowing what most people would think about it, but also loss of time. Changing things so close to release will take time Double Fine people should probably invest in fixing bugs. If they do find the time for it and think it's a low-bug-risk codepath, they should go for it - but it shouldn't be a priority. This is one of the reasons why I feel drag as default is "safer".

I still maintain, however, that despite this change most people who will play the game will know what to do. Certainly most backers will, and that should count for something, no?

Edit:

Even if you are selfish and don't care about the future of Double Fine (and I'm not trying to say you are)

LOL. What a wonderful way to argue. Luckily, I don't mind going there. Official disclaimer: I am selfish and don't care about the future of Double Fine. I only care about my game (and the funding of Act II with the sales of Act I was off the table FYI). So now what?

Read my sentence again. I did not mean to imply you are selfish, I did not mean to imply you don't care. I said "even if". That's an "if". an "if" written with the assumption it's not true.

As for the "backers playing the game" part... well, it doesn't matter what backers do: if the game won't sell enough, we might never see Act 2. I don't think anyone can consider Broken Age a complete game without Act 2.

I also don't understand your comment about something being "off the table". This is not a negotiation, it's a discussion. And funding of act 2 from the sales of act 1 was already decided upon by DF quite some time ago.

And for the "what now?" comment, well... now we keep discussing/arguing until the game is released and this discussion will be no longer relevant.

Do you honestly believe the "click" control scheme is so bad and will itself alone have such a detrimental effect on the sales of the game and that the "drag-drop" control scheme is so much better that, if they make the "click" the default, the game's sales will be a total failure and they will not be able to make Act 2, whereas if they made the "drag-drop" the default the game's sales would be astronomically better in comparison?

I mean seriously, man, your arguments are just getting more and more vapid by the minute.

I think it might have a noticeable effect, and that making the game easier for people to play will mean people will essentially like it more and recommend it to their friends. I obviously exaggerated, but more copies of Broken Age sold means higher potential budget for Act 2 which will allow for more soundtrack, longer gameplay, etc etc.

As for the vapidness, I think it is time I'll go to bed because you are right, I'm beginning to sound quite insane.

I think it is too late to add something like that, the game will be released in less than 2 days! It is not wise to make code changes which aren't bugfixes so close to release.

I agree, but who's to say it's not something that can be retroactively fit to the game between now and the full game*'s release?

It is most certainly possible, but this debate/discussion/whatever is about what will be the default control scheme on Act 1's release, not the distant future of Act 2.

Okay, ya'll are writing comments faster than I can type my reply, and falling asleep sound more and more inviting... so good night for now, you've been fun today.

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As for the vapidness, I think it is time I'll go to bed because you are right, I'm beginning to sound quite insane.

To be honest though, we are all basically arguing about nothing here. It is such a non-issue, when you think about it. Whether the default control scheme is drag or click will have no effect on anything whatsoever, especially since people can go into the options and change that, and most people do (at least I think so) check out the options first before starting a new game the first time.

Some of us prefer the "drag" scheme and some prefer the "click" scheme and we basically want to see our preferred scheme be the default one. That is all there is to it. Which is silly, because in the end it will have no effect on any of us what the default control scheme is when we can change it to whatever we prefer. But bringing into the discussion the ideas of one or the other control scheme somehow detrimentally or beneficially affecting the sales of the game (especially when you can switch between the two) is really just absurd.

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Not sure if it relevant to the discussion, but I love the new "click interaction" style.

Still not a very good input method for PC, but way better than before.

I do think that the options menu could do with some tooltips, though. Click and interaction doesn't really say much, untill you try it out, and I guess that might prevent some from even clicking the option.

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Okay, if the control scheme really is that confusing to new players, I have an idea: a tutorial mode that has next to nothing to do with the storyline of the game. This technique has been used by such brilliant games as Darwinia, The Stanley Parable, and [somewhat] Sam & Max Save the World.

It doesn't need to be more complex than a single room with a couple objects. The hipster lumberjack (Curtis?) is obviously a fan favorite, so have it star him in his cabin. Perhaps include the Dialog Tree, but obviously pull out the mouth-forming puzzle so it doesn't spoil the game.

I do think that the options menu could do with some tooltips, though. Click and interaction doesn't really say much, untill you try it out, and I guess that might prevent some from even clicking the option.

I completely agree. I had no idea what 'Telemetry' was until I read someone's passing remark about it in another thread. (For those of you who still don't know what it is, it helps facilitate automatic submissions of bug reports to DF.)

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I agree with @doccolinni #66.

And @eladalfassa, if you had not meant to imply I/he/we am selfish, then why write that sentence at all? It's like this "I'm just asking" thing. Wrapping something offensive in hypotheticals or questions does not magically make it a-ok. The moment it's brought up, it's on the table, and everyone who reads it will understand it that way, "if" or not. Thus, I asked "now what" -- under the assumption that I am selfish, how does this affect the argument?

As for "off the table" comment, I'm pretty sure someone (Greg? Tim? I can't quite remember) said that the sales of Act I won't be necessary for the funding of Act II, after all. And that's the only reasonable way to do this too, since you can't exactly plan that way. The money coming in from the sale is unknown (even without supposed control issues), budgeting with that would be somewhat foolish.

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lol Macs.

I "right-click" (two-finger tap) on my Mac all the time. Couldn't do without it. (But I'm I relatively new Mac owner - bought my first eight years ago. I really disliked having to work with the old MacOS back in the day - as a musician, I still had to, on occasion - but now OS X is better than Windows in every way IMHO, except when it comes to the ability to run Windows programs, i.e. games.)

On the topic of this thread, I agree with the original poster that the original interface is a better default.

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Here's a question, though @DF.

If you already can (and did) map things to the second mouse button anyway (the one that Mac-users don't have :P), why couldn't you also map the examine-function to it? For every non-Mac user, that should solve the problem (and we'd be another step closer to "classic adventure game" ...).

This is generally not my call, so I'm speaking only of my personal opinion, but I see access to an interface and how the interface itself functions as very different things. Everything in the game is controlled with 1 button. All the other buttons are optional and are there to better tailor the experience for the user. How you examine an item has to fall under the 1-button interface because it's a fundamental action in the game.

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Well, it could be optional (given the choice, I'd configure the buttons for myself that way in a heartbeat), but either way, I appreciate your thoughts on that matter, @Anna! :)

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Hmm. You obviously don't work too often with Mac users. I was in two separate Mac-based offices in London last week -- I met several users who only had one mouse button configured. One of them even looked at me confused when I suggested they "right click" on something. (No I'm not joking -- I'm not even exaggerating!) OSX is just designed to be able to function like that -- you don't need a second button.

Plus, from my own experience with Macs, their mice do not lend themselves to multi button functionality, so that's probably another reason why people prefer the simple one button configuration.

Your experience is obviously very different than mine. I work very often with Mac users (mostly graphic design people, which sometimes is surprisingly non-tech-savvy) and I really never had this problem.

Also I might be wrong, but I believe that mac mices and trackpads in recent years have had the secondary button enabled by default on new macs.

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