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      These Forums are closing!   10/04/2019

      After more than a decade of serving this community well, these forums have finally run their course and it's time to close them down. That doesn't mean we want to close the doors on our community, quite the opposite!
      Our discord server grows ever busier by the day, and we encourage all Double Fine fans to meet us over there www.discord.gg/doublefine In a short time these forums will become a read only archive and will remain that way until they become needed again.
      You never know, it might happen.  There is... a prophecy. Thank you all for being part of these forums, and remember that the fun is definitely not over - so please join us on Discord! Love ya, Spaff, Tim, Info Cow, and all of Double Fine.
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The_Typer

Successful or No?

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I think it's pretty obvious from the overall picture of things that this is not the game Tim wanted to make. The broad strokes are his, but his bad production method (high marginal costs) left him in a situation that required a 50% abortion on the original design and releasing the game in two parts.

Who knows whether the real product would have been more satisfactory to you? Maybe the whole idea was bust from the get-go. All I know is that most backers are a little disappointed -- it's not the game we asked for.

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Before returning to the topic at hand, which is that - yay - the game is doing at least as well as it needs to do, I guess I've sort of mellowed on the topic of how satisfied, unsatisfied various people are.

I'm very satisfied, other people not so, some downright dislike it, and all that's fine, but I think the thing that has to be understood is that all of these sentiments come from looking at the same thing from a different angle. By which I mean, I think most of us talking about this here enjoyed old adventure games in some form or other, and I think the assumption that everyone made was that we all saw the same stuff in this shared thing we liked. That seemed natural enough but it's more than obvious now that this just isn't true and never was. An aspect that one person sees at The Big Thing, the next person can take or leave, or didn't even notice. We were all admiring it from different angles - some not SO different, of course, but more varied I would say than you'd find with most genres.

I still take exception at a sort of undercurrent of intellectual snobbery that can surround these discussions - worth remembering here we're talking about highly individual matters of taste, and while it might please some to imagine that they appreciate a genre for more refined or intelligent reasons than the next person, that's pure vanity.

I should emphasise that I'm not really speaking to anyone in particular in saying that, I just feel like on either side of the various argument's I've seen there's a tendency to be condescending - something I've possibly indulged in a little, too.

But yes, I feel relaxed about it now. I'm very secure in my appreciation of Broken Age, and hope that those who got less out of it find more to like in time, since that'd be nice for them.

So, back to the success...

I did a really rough back of the envelope really ballpark metaphor-mixing calculation of how much Broken Age would have to sell to fund part 2, based on several assumptions which are likely shaky and inaccurate but probably good enough for ballparking.

*that they spent about 5ish million on the game in the 20 months they already worked on it

*that for another they'd be spending money at the same rate for part 2

*that the entire budget for part 2 is coming from sales of part 1 (I think this notion is very untrue, but since I don't know what the other sources are, or how much they'd make up, I can't easily assume anything about them)

*that they're planning to work on it for about 6 months (based on the initial estimate of April-May, modified a bit by recent interviews suggesting it would take longer)

*that they're making about $16 from each sale on average - might be lower due to pre-orders and coupons.

Based on that, I lost the maths I used to calculate it, but I figured that to completely cover a ballpark budget for part 2, it would have had to have sold at least somewhere between 70k-100k copies

Which is actually comfortably in line with the estimates being made about sales based on other guesswork.

With mobile releases, steam sales and further promotions, the release of part 2, I see no reason why that number couldn't more than double by the end of the year, so I think at minimum the outlook for the game is a modest success.

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All I know is that most backers are a little disappointed -- it's not the game we asked for.

That. Is a stretch.

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-- it's not the game we asked for.

It is the game that most of us asked for. It doesn't have hard puzzles (so far) and it's not complete yet.

But it is an adventure game from Tim Schafer where you point & click and get a story told.

The genre in itself is old school. It lived on in europe, especially germany and the east european countries and evolved.

It's not SCUMM anymore and I didn't exspect DFA to use anything near it, from the start.

Yeah ACT 1 could have had more puzzles but it still is a great piece of art.

I think many did exspect it to be the new "best Adventure Game of All Time", because 90.000 people gave their money to get it done. But it is as it is.

You cannot satisfy 90.000 people. It's absolutely impossible.

So I don't know where the "we" comes from. I am not dissapointed. I got what I asked for.

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-- it's not the game we asked for.

It is the game that most of us asked for. It doesn't have hard puzzles (so far) and it's not complete yet.

But it is an adventure game from Tim Schafer where you point & click and get a story told.

The genre in itself is old school. It lived on in europe, especially germany and the east european countries and evolved.

It's not SCUMM anymore and I didn't exspect DFA to use anything near it, from the start.

Yeah ACT 1 could have had more puzzles but it still is a great piece of art.

I think many did exspect it to be the new "best Adventure Game of All Time", because 90.000 people gave their money to get it done. But it is as it is.

You cannot satisfy 90.000 people. It's absolutely impossible.

So I don't know where the "we" comes from. I am not dissapointed. I got what I asked for.

I agree with you, we get what we asked for.

But do you get what you hope for ???

There is no fault from DF for not give anything more than was promised, but then again i expected a better (half) adventure game. I any case we need to remember that there is EP 2 yet to come and we cannot pass to hard judgement until then..

Regards/Saludos.

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I don't like to approach these things with expectations. I like art to be organic. If you start saying "It needs to be this" or "It should have that," you are losing a vital part of the creative process. I don't think we should judge it for what it isn't, but rather what it is. I recently got the chance to start playing it some, and I'm loving it. I think it's beautiful.

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I've noticed that inside adventure genre fans there's a certain amount of rigidity. Some people are very precice about what they seem to be able to accept in their games and the most hardcore people just don't mesh well if the puzzles are too simple, which is their way of saying "The puzzle didn't take me two days to solve". I think some of them would be much happer just playing pure puzzle games instead.

Very challenging group of people to please, but at the same time a minority IMO. Or if they'd be a majority, I don't think adventure games would have dropped in the background as long as they did.

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Well, I suppose. If you want to call expecting an Adventure when you're offered an Adventure "rigidity" ... (generally speaking)

Leaving aside that this thread wasn't the is-it-what-we-asked-for thread, your argument runs into trouble when you start talking about people inside the adventure genre and end up arguing something about all people, since the reason for the decreased prominence of adventure games would have to do with the overall share of players, not with a part of that share. If you bothered to, you could indeed make the reverse argument by pointing to the success of the (oldschool-AG) Kickstarters.

@OANST: "Organic" approaches to art are overrated. "It should have that" is the start and vital part of every useful creative process ever.

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"It should have that" is the start and vital part of every useful creative process ever.

I can hardly fathom a more audacious claim. What do you do creatively yourself? How can you possibly, with any confidence, claim to know what went into EVERY CREATIVE PROCESS EEEVVVEEEERRRRRR?

So so sosodumb.

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"It should have that" is the start and vital part of every useful creative process ever.

I can hardly fathom a more audacious claim. What do you do creatively yourself? How can you possibly, with any confidence, claim to know what went into EVERY CREATIVE PROCESS EEEVVVEEEERRRRRR?

So so sosodumb.

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As it happens, I write. But that is entirely besides the point and wasn't what I meant. Do note that I said "every useful creative process". And that is a no-brainer, because the fundamental starting point of a creative process that isn't a self-purpose (i.e. not not of use for something in the strictest sense) is a problem that needs solving. Thus, "it should be a solution to this" is the build-in in the premise; in regards to Broken Age the problem is "I want to write a video-game" and, arguably, "I want to write an adventure game", so your "it should have that"s are "it should be a video game" and "it should be an adventure game".

Without those clear defined expectations, Tim could as well have spent time trying to write an opera or a pop song. It strikes me as exceedingly unlikely that he did that.

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As it happens, I write. But that is entirely besides the point and wasn't what I meant. Do note that I said "every useful creative process". And that is a no-brainer, because the fundamental starting point of a creative process that isn't a self-purpose (i.e. not not of use for something in the strictest sense) is a problem that needs solving. Thus, "it should be a solution to this" is the build-in in the premise; in regards to Broken Age the problem is "I want to write a video-game" and, arguably, "I want to write an adventure game", so your "it should have that"s are "it should be a video game" and "it should be an adventure game".

Without those clear defined expectations, Tim could as well have spent time trying to write an opera or a pop song. It strikes me as exceedingly unlikely that he did that.

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I've noticed that inside adventure genre fans there's a certain amount of rigidity. Some people are very precice about what they seem to be able to accept in their games and the most hardcore people just don't mesh well if the puzzles are too simple, which is their way of saying "The puzzle didn't take me two days to solve". I think some of them would be much happer just playing pure puzzle games instead.

Very challenging group of people to please, but at the same time a minority IMO. Or if they'd be a majority, I don't think adventure games would have dropped in the background as long as they did.

Well....i really dont agree with you.

Adventure genre fans are rigid about Adventure Game types, thats whats makes them (us) Adventure fans. So i dont get your point.

Puzzles are not easy because they take less than 2 days to solve, puzzles are easy when you dont have any doubt about what to do to solve them even more so when the games present you the solution before the problem.

Adventure fans maybe a minority (in Publishers eyes) but i was watching the livestream from DF the day the KS closed and i heard Tim saying that this game/experience mayor acomplishment was to prove to all the people out there that ¨minority¨s dont have to accept others decitions that there is always a way to achieve yours goals.....so your point is really invalid, specially regarding this project.

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I've noticed that inside adventure genre fans there's a certain amount of rigidity. Some people are very precice about what they seem to be able to accept in their games and the most hardcore people just don't mesh well if the puzzles are too simple, which is their way of saying "The puzzle didn't take me two days to solve". I think some of them would be much happer just playing pure puzzle games instead.

Very challenging group of people to please, but at the same time a minority IMO. Or if they'd be a majority, I don't think adventure games would have dropped in the background as long as they did.

Well....i really dont agree with you.

Adventure genre fans are rigid about Adventure Game types, thats whats makes them (us) Adventure fans. So i dont get your point.

Puzzles are not easy because they take less than 2 days to solve, puzzles are easy when you dont have any doubt about what to do to solve them even more so when the games present you the solution before the problem.

Adventure fans maybe a minority (in Publishers eyes) but i was watching the livestream from DF the day the KS closed and i heard Tim saying that this game/experience mayor acomplishment was to prove to all the people out there that ¨minority¨s dont have to accept others decitions that there is always a way to achieve yours goals.....so your point is really invalid, specially regarding this project.

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Thanks for that post LiloElLoro; this labeling of those that expected a more challenging experience from (the first half of) an adventure game as "unreasonable masochists that can't appreciate anything in a game other than hard puzzles" gets tiresome.

No, I wouldn't be happier playing a pure puzzle game, just as I wouldn't be happier playing a pure "interactive story" game. An adventure game is a mixture of narrative and puzzles; doesn't mean I can't appreciate either side, just that it lessens my enjoyment of the game when the balance is skewed too much in either direction (whether it is or isn't in this case is of course subjective).

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Thanks for that post LiloElLoro; this labeling of those that expected a more challenging experience from (the first half of) an adventure game as "unreasonable masochists that can't appreciate anything in a game other than hard puzzles" gets tiresome.

No, I wouldn't be happier playing a pure puzzle game, just as I wouldn't be happier playing a pure "interactive story" game. An adventure game is a mixture of narrative and puzzles; doesn't mean I can't appreciate either side, just that it lessens my enjoyment of the game when the balance is skewed too much in either direction (whether it is or isn't in this case is of course subjective).

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True success is how it sells beyond the backers. Personaly this is a win for me.

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True success is how it sells beyond the backers. Personaly this is a win for me.

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All I know is that most backers are a little disappointed -- it's not the game we asked for.

It is human nature for one to assume that everyone else is thinking what they are thinking. OR someone who wants to believe a certain truth will only see the info that supports that truth.

Reality probably isn't in this person's statement.

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All I know is that most backers are a little disappointed -- it's not the game we asked for.

It is human nature for one to assume that everyone else is thinking what they are thinking. OR someone who wants to believe a certain truth will only see the info that supports that truth.

Reality probably isn't in this person's statement.

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I think it's pretty obvious from the overall picture of things that this is not the game Tim wanted to make. The broad strokes are his, but his bad production method (high marginal costs) left him in a situation that required a 50% abortion on the original design and releasing the game in two parts.

Who knows whether the real product would have been more satisfactory to you? Maybe the whole idea was bust from the get-go. All I know is that most backers are a little disappointed -- it's not the game we asked for.

Thanks for saying this, I actually find it really encouraging. It's a lot more hopeful to think the issues were with the production process, not with DF/Tim's ability to make a game that measures up to (what I honestly believe is) their full potential.

Also I'm going to stick up for your claim that "most backers are a little disappointed" -- which is a clumsy, inaccurate way of expressing the painful truth that the game's potential was starkly different from its reality in some important ways, which shouldn't simply be dismissed if you really care about DF/Tim and what they're capable of. I have some lame friends who backed and haven't even installed the game .

I can look forward to a future in which DF is rich rich rich, where they will be able to make a game of the rare breed I know they're capable of creating. It follows that for the time being, DF is experimenting boldly -- not necessarily because this is their new essence, but because they absolutely must find a new kind of viable production approach proto, so they can survive to make the truly epic works of wonder they're capable of.

I am looking forward to seeing how this all pans out in the very long run. I hope mobile sales of BA are amazing; it will definitely be one of the best mobile games out there!

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For anyone interested.

The game is in the Steam Top Ten again, at the moment, due to the 33% discount.

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The game is beautiful and funny. That's all I care about personally. However, I *hope* the sales enable Double Fine to do what they want the way they want to do them. From the recent interview with Tim, it sounds like they're on their way.

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Looking at the hits for my strategy guide on GameFAQs, I'd say it's moderately successful with people still purchasing it to this day. Now, my views per day have dropped, and I'm still getting daily views, but I'm fairly certain they're new viewers since the game is built around hints. I'm assuming, though, people look at the guide for a single solution rather than to read it and play at the same time.

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I thought the game was awesome, but I've been becoming more and more unsatisfied after how long we've been out of the loop regarding part 2.

at this point, my hype is starting to dwindle :/

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I'm happy with what I've received as a backer. The documentary actually meant more to me than Act I. I've been working on some indie game dev projects of my own, and seeing the pros wrestle with the same types of problems makes me feel more human. The documentary created the illusion that I was on their team, and I liked that -- I realize how weird and pathetic I must sound writing that, but it's true and I won't take it back. :-)

I do feel like I know where the story is headed already though, but I hope that I'm wrong so that I haven't spoiled it for myself already.

The silence is what's killing me at the moment. I feel like we're stuck outside in the freezing snow, doing our damnedest to peek in the windows or get a response from anyone who will listen. I didn't know that Act II was going to kick the studio into stealth mode. After they decided to do 2 acts, was it intentional to cut ties with the backers after Act I shipped?

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I am torn.

On one side I think it's extremely beautiful on an artistic level and it has a fantastic cast of characters and a very nice story. On the other side, I think that we were promised an old-style adventure game, and this absolutely isn't one. No verbs, no hotspot, no puzzles, semplicistic interface designed for tablets...

Not the game I was hoping for, I'm afraid.

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I think the verbs is a natural thing to cut off, everyone dropped it for the sake of focusing in other things.

At least for me, I loved the game. Even more, the documentary made it worth my money and more. I agree that the puzzles were basically non-existent (they were but... so easy haha) and I hope ACT II improves that.

NOW...

I know the game was successful enough to fund act II but... how successful?

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