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glenfx

I'm Kind of disappointed, it's missing a "cool factor"

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Sorry, I was talking entirely within the context of sales numbers and "buzz". Sorry if you misunderstood.

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Uh... you understand that the best-selling game on Steam for the last billion years has been an indie game, right?

You understand that BA is at #64 and falling, under a whole slew of (older) indie games?

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Uh... you understand that the best-selling game on Steam for the last billion years has been an indie game, right?

You understand that BA is at #64 and falling, under a whole slew of (older) indie games?

You understand that one example doesn't mean every indie has to stay on top, right? Not every game has mass-market appeal and not every game has to have it. For BA to do well, it doesn't need to sell all that many copies. In fact, if it sold as many as Grim did, it would be an enormous success for DF. Plus there are still other platforms and distribution channels -- direct sales, GOG, mobile, etc...

The aforementioned Defender's Quest got a nice chunk of its revenue from other places than Steam: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/186940/

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Ok, ok, Goebbels. Calm down.

In summary, my point is that they strove for mainstream gameplay without achieving mainstream content, and hence their sales numbers will not be especially high -- certainly not as high as Justin seemed to be hoping. Far, far from 500k.

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I'm very calm. Why are you so upset? You seem to have a pathological need to cast DF in bad light, from trying to insinuate that Peter McConnell is racist because he used African instruments for inspiration to casting doubt on the motivations of Double Fine to badmouthing the game to pronouncing the game dead saleswise.

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I'm very calm. Why are you so upset? You seem to have a pathological need to cast DF in bad light, from trying to insinuate that Peter McConnell is racist because he used African instruments for inspiration to casting doubt on the motivations of Double Fine to badmouthing the game to pronouncing the game dead saleswise.

So far, as I go through the threads, I dont even have to look at the name to know who's talking shit.

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I find it overtly bizarre that the 'storybook for children' complaint is so frequent.

I don't know if this is a cultural difference or not, but I don't believe it's all that common to read stories that open with ritualistic sacrifice to children, is it? Or how about showing a sapient being what he believed to be an example of mutilation of his own kind? Even though it wasn't, the suggestion was there, and it was enough for him to vomit. Not enough? How about the techno-organic infection spreading through Shay's ship and the fact that he's been in danger all of his life, and that the AI is probably going insane trying to keep him safe?

Honestly, I think that this notion of mature is ironically so, as in Rambo-shooting-men-full-of-holes mature, mature with air-quotes. Whereas Broken Age actually deals with some very mature topics, and a sense of creeping dread that isn't thrust down your throat at every given opportunity. I actually appreciate subtlety. In fact, I think it's subtlety that made Broken Age so cool. That subtlety extended to the humour, and some of my favourite video game jokes of the past year. Hands up, how many actually got the warp and woof drive joke? That was a beautifully nerdy joke. I love it.

I just can't help but feel that this use of cool is interchangeable with crass. I empathise that some people enjoy entertainment that's as blunt as a hammer, I guess that mainstream television and video games have taught us to expect that, no? So it's impossible to enjoy something unless it's slapping you around the chops with the obvious, and making low-brow jokes. I can't help but wonder, conversely, if the OP liked Deponia.

Did Deponia have that cool factor?

I felt that Deponia was too blunt and on the nose, it made it unpleasant and even misogynistic. But that's what some people go for, Family Guy is their Shakespeare, so to speak. As a creative fellow myself, I prefer the subtlety that went into it all, even into the art and the music. And I loved the visual theming.

To each their own, I guess.

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I find it overtly bizarre that the 'storybook for children' complaint is so frequent.

I don't know if this is a cultural difference or not, but I don't believe it's all that common to read stories that open with ritualistic sacrifice to children, is it? Or how about showing a sapient being what he believed to be an example of mutilation of his own kind? Even though it wasn't, the suggestion was there, and it was enough for him to vomit. Not enough? How about the techno-organic infection spreading through Shay's ship and the fact that he's been in danger all of his life, and that the AI is probably going insane trying to keep him safe?

Yeah, well. I'd rather you'd not use that argument. You don't even need to go there to see that could spawn an entire thread on its own. Suffice to say that while I heartily dislike that book myself, I also don't think children only need to be told stories of fairies and rainbows either. One of Astrid Lindgrens's best books (The Brothers Lionheart) deals with the topic of dying, and it's certainly a children's book.

In this case, as it's a coming-of-age story, I suppose you could pass it off as YA, but I wouldn't hesitate to let younger kids play it either. The problem there is possibly a lack of understanding of deeper themes, depending on the age, but not the content as such. In the end, it's missing the point, though -- complaining that it's a story for children is still silly. Complain that it's a bad story, and we can discuss it.

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I'm very calm. Why are you so upset? You seem to have a pathological need to cast DF in bad light, from trying to insinuate that Peter McConnell is racist because he used African instruments for inspiration to casting doubt on the motivations of Double Fine to badmouthing the game to pronouncing the game dead saleswise.

I LIKE Broken Age. I am its target audience.

However, I'm simply stating facts here. The Peter McConnell thing was for shits and giggles; I don't know how anybody took that as a dagger to the heart. I don't know what you mean by "casting doubt on the motivations of Double Fine," unless you mean, suspecting them of wanting to make an "accessible" mass-market adventure with easy puzzles, lots of story, and generic content.

Finally, I haven't pronounced the game dead saleswise; I've looked at the very obvious fact that it is not successful saleswise and proposed a theory for why this might be. This isn't the same as celebrating its lack of success. It's analyzing the fact of it.

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What's shits and giggles for you just comes across as unnecessarily mean and rude.

I love it how you keep bringing the mass market into this as if DF is trying to get rich making point and click adventure games. That's like saying inXile is trying to corner the market of isometric RPGs with turn-based combat to make mad money.

I also love how you seem to know the sales figures already and predict the success from two weeks of Steam sales alone, ignoring the fact that there is still the release of Act 2, sales, promotions, other platforms and other distributors.

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What's shits and giggles for you just comes across as unnecessarily mean and rude.

I love it how you keep bringing the mass market into this as if DF is trying to get rich making point and click adventure games. That's like saying inXile is trying to corner the market of isometric RPGs with turn-based combat to make mad money.

I also love how you seem to know the sales figures already and predict the success from two weeks of Steam sales alone, ignoring the fact that there is still the release of Act 2, sales, promotions, other platforms and other distributors.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by bemusedly speculating as to whether "an African sound" for a black girl is racist.

"Mad money" is a strawman and not my argument. DF was obviously trying to broaden their market beyond the backers. They knew what the backers wanted and already had their money, so they recognized a need to target the product at a slightly larger market: the TellTale market. Anybody with the slightest hint of analytical ability can tell this.

I don't follow Wasteland 2. No comment. Whatever the case, that's another Kickstarter with other issues. I can say that Obsidian seems to be pursuing a pure BG2-like experience with POE, which is, incidentally, exactly what they proposed in their Kickstarter, and exactly why they showed boxes of IWD, BG, PST, and BG2 in their pitch.

All I'm saying is the game is a sleeper hit at best. It's no Grim Fandango and it will never win Game of the Year. It's no Walking Dead and will never make "mad money". It'll be lucky to win Adventure Game of the Year, and even then it'll get it from the corporate giant reviewer sites that never play adventures anyway. It is neither a critic darling nor a mass-market success.

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DF was obviously trying to broaden their market beyond the backers. They knew what the backers wanted and already had their money, so they recognized a need to target the product at a slightly larger market: the TellTale market. Anybody with the slightest hint of analytical ability can tell this.

Again, you suggest that DF had ulterior motives. However, it was up to DF to make the game that they wanted and they promised nothing more. The accusation that DF changed the original design to make more money is nothing but speculation and nothing in the documentary seems to indicate that. If they really wanted a slice of that Telltale pie, wouldn't the game be more like Telltale games?

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Again, you suggest that DF had ulterior motives. However, it was up to DF to make the game that they wanted and they promised nothing more. The accusation that DF changed the original design to make more money is nothing but speculation and nothing in the documentary seems to indicate that. If they really wanted a slice of that Telltale pie, wouldn't the game be more like Telltale games?

Come off it; they say in the documentary that they need BA to be a financial success in order to secure the studio's independence. They playtest the game on their secretaries. These aren't "ulterior motives"; they're stated motives. The game is targeted at a market wider than the backer market, and it'd be absurd to think otherwise.

I'm not sure where you think a game with simplistic puzzles and almost no inventory, where you Click To Interact, is located on the scale from DOTT to Walking Dead (example puzzle: put batteries in radio).

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Come off it; they say in the documentary that they need BA to be a financial success in order to secure the studio's independence. They playtest the game on their secretaries. These aren't "ulterior motives"; they're stated motives. The game is targeted at a market wider than the backer market, and it'd be absurd to think otherwise.

I'm not sure where you think a game with simplistic puzzles and almost no inventory, where you Click To Interact, is located on the scale from DOTT to Walking Dead (example puzzle: put batteries in radio).

Of course DF wants to get independent and if BA were to be a hit it would get them there. However, nowhere did anyone say that they need BA for it. It may as well be Spacebase DF-9 or Massive Chalice or one of their other projects.

Of course they playtest it internally. It's the cheapest way and everyone does it. This does in no way mean they are aiming for the mass market of... point and click adventure games.

And yes, the puzzles are relatively simple, especially compared to old school games like DOTT. However, the puzzles in TWD do not get more complicated than "use battery on radio". In fact, quite the opposite. On the other hand, there are puzzles in BA that require multiple steps and/or some lateral thinking, such as changing the navscarf, getting to the boom arm controls, getting the golden egg from the high nest, making the sandcastle stay up. Furthermore, the puzzles in Act 2 were supposed to be more complex/difficult.

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Yeah, well. I'd rather you'd not use that argument. You don't even need to go there to see that could spawn an entire thread on its own.

It's not an argument, it's a counter-argument, and I'd rather I use it. Thank you.

I guess it would be nice to ignore that I actually brought up cultural differences, but I did, it's right there in my original post. One culture's actions aren't bound to another's. I'm sure that when the OP was talking of story books, he was thinking of Grimm's fairytales at best. And not even the original and much darker takes on those stories, either. Even then, they tend to tell stories based around a simplistic black & white morality designed for a child to understand. Not even Struwwelpeter is particularly nuanced or subtle.

In fact, like many of those stories, it works through shock rather than reason. Broken Age, on the other hand, deals with more prickly subjects through reason rather than shock. They're not presented in a horrific way. As such, I don't know what story books the OP has been reading, but I'd like to see them because I've yet to see one that makes a point about a mature topic in an intelligent, subtle, nuanced way.

I'm not attacking you here, either, but I'm just using your response to illustrate a point. I knew that someone was going to reply with that, and you're just a means to an end. My point is is that one can only take Broken Age to be akin to a children's storybook if the nuance and subtlety contained within has completely eluded them. This is more of a judgement of a person's lack of perception than it is an indictment of the game itself. I'm of the opinion that I'd like to see subtlety more commonly used, even if it does sometimes go over the heads of those unable to parse it.

Savvy?

The problem there is possibly a lack of understanding of deeper themes, depending on the age, but not the content as such. In the end, it's missing the point, though -- complaining that it's a story for children is still silly. Complain that it's a bad story, and we can discuss it.

Seems that you are savvy. Good job.

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I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by bemusedly speculating as to whether "an African sound" for a black girl is racist.

Hurting someone's feelings and offending them are two different things. You may come over as crass, sleazy, and genuinely unpleasant to the person you're talking to if you're going to show that you're not capable of empathy or ethics.

And what, exactly, did you like about Broken Age? You've made the claim that you like it but I've actually never seen any evidence of that, it seems that you like Broken Age politically so that you won't be called into question. As such, I'm actually asking you, what is it that you liked about Broken Age? If you did, you're going to be able to find good things to say about it, without having to mimic others. What did it mean to you? Where did your enjoyment stem from?

I think you're just feeling put off because you don't get Broken Age and you'd quite incorrectly read their Kickstarter as Tim having said they were making Day of the Tentacle 2. The documentaries were open and transparent about the game they were making from the beginning, and you had plenty of chances to pull out from the backing.

And in my opinion, perhaps in mine alone, what we got was better than Day of the Tentacle 2.

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It's not an argument, it's a counter-argument, and I'd rather I use it. Thank you.
Well, you can. I just wanted to help you avoid using a bad argument that on top of that isn't even needed. But knock yourself out.
I guess it would be nice to ignore that I actually brought up cultural differences, but I did, it's right there in my original post.

What cultural differences? Between all of Europe and the rest of the world? And you just shifted the argument. Originally, your claim was that "I don’t believe it’s all that common to read stories that open with ritualistic sacrifice to children", to which I pointed out that there are children's stories that deal with even more supposedly "shocking" themes, seeing that you were talking about the act as such, and not the presentation of it. The argument was thus invalidated.

Now you're talking about the presentation. But even so, since you're now arguing it's not a children's story because it's not what stories for children are typically like (as opposed to arguing it's not a children's story because it is unsuitable for children, which would be logically straight-forward but doesn't fit this game), the argument goes nowhere because that is a matter of opinion (why can't there be nuanced stories for children too?).

Also, just so that we're not blowing it out of proportion: The story is nice, and I don't agree it's a story specifically aimed at children, but it's not the next Nobel Price candidate. Vella's part is "girl doesn't want to get eaten by monster so she decided to fight it instead", while Shay's is "boy is bored and wants to have adventures". Every child ever can get behind that. The possible subtleties (consequences of "fighting") are, all things considered, so far rather microscopic.

It's silly to argue the story is bad because it's a story for children, because that argument is bad (the quality of a story certainly doesn't depend on its supposed target audience). But this also means that any argument that engages this bad argument can't be much better either.

(And I'm going to ignore the "I knew someone would respond and wanted to make that point ..."-part, as that is a quite dishonest way to argue.)

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I wonder how many children backed this game though. In my opinion a target audience certainly does matter (or should have mattered). So far, from an adult's perspective, it's not a good story because

a) nothing interesting, new or exciting happens in there. There really exist more interesting stories than this one, some (a minority) still even manage bringing up new ideas and great characters.

b) it's not aimed at adults, not the visual style (which i'm fine with) but most importantly not the complexity or the problems/situations which occur to the characters.

c) it doesn't offer the ambiguity good children stories offer which both entertain kids as well as adults but on a different level.

d) it doesn't fit well a cut into pieces (episodic) experience (okay, this wasn't the initial idea but still).

Obviously you can't fully evaluate the story yet as it's incomplete, so, who knows what will happen... but wasn't Grim Fandango a lot more entertaining, exceptional and exciting already?! I don't want to lie to me and tell myself that the story is great when i just don't feel this way. From my experiences kids like the game more than adults.

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Hurting someone's feelings and offending them are two different things. You may come over as crass, sleazy, and genuinely unpleasant to the person you're talking to if you're going to show that you're not capable of empathy or ethics.

And what, exactly, did you like about Broken Age? You've made the claim that you like it but I've actually never seen any evidence of that, it seems that you like Broken Age politically so that you won't be called into question. As such, I'm actually asking you, what is it that you liked about Broken Age? If you did, you're going to be able to find good things to say about it, without having to mimic others. What did it mean to you? Where did your enjoyment stem from?

I think you're just feeling put off because you don't get Broken Age and you'd quite incorrectly read their Kickstarter as Tim having said they were making Day of the Tentacle 2. The documentaries were open and transparent about the game they were making from the beginning, and you had plenty of chances to pull out from the backing.

And in my opinion, perhaps in mine alone, what we got was better than Day of the Tentacle 2.

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/12323/#319419

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/12323/#319431

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/12281/#318771

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/11292/P25/#310191

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/12367/#319718

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