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DFMatt

let's talk demolition

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So: tearing stuff down is way too much work. We all agree with that. :)

Initially, I'd built in some safeguards so that if you tried to vaporize a couple objects, you wouldn't also accidentally drag-select a floor tile, not notice it, then cause a breach from a silly accidental mouse drag. So now if you select an object in your drag, it won't mark the floors for breach. (Similarly with walls.)

Also, it clearly doesn't make sense to tag an object for demolition, and have it vaporize the floor too! So if you drag-select some floor and some objects... should it vaporize them all to space? And then there's the fog of war case where you don't even know what's in there.

So that means it takes too many passes to demolish a derelict. Lots of redragging, fog of war screws it up, etc. etc.

I have some thoughts on an improved interface for this. But before I get to it, I want to make sure I understand the problems everyone else is having, and what they think should happen. (Caveat: no guarantees on the timeline for this interface fix.)

Questions for you:

What are the worst parts of demolition?

What would you expect to happen if you drag-select vaporize an entire derelict in fog of war? Not in fog of war? How about a combination of claimed and unclaimed rooms? What if you drag-vaporize some walls in your base and also some floors? What if that includes some objects? Consider the case where you're trying to tear down a wall between rooms, or just destroy a few objects, or where you want to just nuke a whole room from orbit (it's the only way to be sure).

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Demolition!

My biggest issue with demolition is the way it works on Derelicts; if I click-drag an entire ship, I expect my crew to hustle over and tear it down to the floorboards. I'm personally fine with the floor itself requiring a second pass. Demolishing doors always leaves a chunk of wall behind, though, which means liquidating a wreck will require a minimum of three passes (because it's not possible to demolish the remaining floor after the first pass).

If I click-drag the floor + an object, I'm fine with only demolishing the object. I want the floor to be difficult to demolish, because I don't want to accidentally breach my own base.

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I think the thing that would help the most is being able to actually flag a room for demolition, then the builders will at leisure go and dismantle everything inside then outside in an orderly efficient manner, and once a room is flagged everyone inside will immediately make like a tree and get out. This would solve so many headaches for me, and then anything selected by the construction tool will take precedence and builders would shift their priorities.

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I would be ok if dragging over the selected areas sent the workers to deconstruct the whole thing to the floorboards, HOWEVER the workers should have some common scene that,"hey the administrator wants us the space the room, better get on a spacesuit!!" they actually do it... So many times I have sent like 4 construction workers to their deaths in derelicts because one idiot opens the floor up while I was taking the thing apart from the inside and all 4 of them got spaced. Perhaps a warning when you order demo work that the selected action will vent the compartment(s) to space and there will be no O2.

Overall less suffocation and smarter workers makes a happier player in my opinion.

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What are the worst parts of demolition?

Pathing. just pathing.

when you say "So if you drag-select some floor and some objects... should it vaporize them all to space?"

it made me dream of a way to just blast it out of the sky, not recycling it for matter as an option to be a good thing.

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My main complaint I think would be the way walls and floors are prioritized over objects right now. When I want a derelict demolished I can usually get the walls taken down pretty quickly, but waiting for all of the doors and other objects to get demolished is what really takes ages. (For some reason builders tend to fly out, destroy only a single item, and then go right back to the pub or lifting weights or taking a nap)

As for the fog of war I would kind of like it if builders were just able to lift it as they are demolishing the outside walls or something.

Also we could demolish things with explosives maybe? That would be cool. . .

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Perhaps a solution might be different types of demolition. A 'picky' demolish and an 'indiscriminate' demolish that you select from the action menu.

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What are the worst parts of demolition?

When my builders get stuck in the wreck (usually in doors) and there's nothing I can do about it, and I have to sit there and watch them suffocate.

Raiders and Derelicts are scary for the wrong reason.

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When my builders get stuck in the wreck (usually in doors) and there's nothing I can do about it

you can get them unstuck by removing the item they are stuck on, its just a matter of catching that in time so poor stuck worker does not die before you can get him or her unstuck.

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To hell with even demolishing derelicts. Give the whole thing a solid smack and send it off into the void to be some other poor bastard's problem. Why should we need to even use so much of our resources to deconstruct the things? For a matter reward? It's just not giving enough reward for the real-life time invested, it's something I have my builders do when they'd otherwise be idling and getting mopy. Something that would let me get rid of the ship while still getting the reward (so even when I'm in maximum efficiency mode I don't have to stop having fun just to get everything possible) would be ideal.

Maybe the matter on some derelicts isn't any good because of space rust so you just tap it hard and it drifts off. Others have a little self-destruct button hidden in them that'll dismantle the whole thing in one go. With explosives. That your security should definitely think about getting away from. While wearing sunglasses and never looking back.

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Incorrect! The object that the Builder gets stuck in is already marked for demolition.

marked is not the same thing as demolished, if thing stuck on _is_ demolished, it works to get the worker unstuck.

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Re: not demolishing them, they SHOULD eventually float away if you don't claim any of the rooms and stop visiting them. I haven't tested that recently, though, and it does take a while.

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Re: not demolishing them, they SHOULD eventually float away if you don't claim any of the rooms and stop visiting them. I haven't tested that recently, though, and it does take a while.

I haven't noticed any floating away in 4 or 4a, but even when they did I was missing out on the matter reward, which isn't really satisfying. And if they're docked with your station, they're never going away, you just gotta take your lumps and lose half your crew to buggy collisions and asphyxiation.

Even if there were no reward, their presence is annoying. They block where you'll build, they'll clip and destroy asteroids which you'd normally mine for much more matter, and there's just there and they won't go away. Some other active way of removing their presence would be a lot more enjoyable - I really do like the idea of a self-destruct button. It turns derelicts into the mini-adventures they're meant to be, with cautious exploration leading up to a confrontation and ending with an exciting race to get out in time. They're there and then they're gone and you're free to do whatever else you want now, maybe do another one.

As they are right now, whenever a new derelict rolls in I roll my eyes and prepare for an unfun, long-term engagement. I'm not ready for that sort of commitment, I want a one night stand!

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Re: not demolishing them, they SHOULD eventually float away if you don't claim any of the rooms and stop visiting them. I haven't tested that recently, though, and it does take a while.

mind = blown. never knew. will def try tomorrow.

I haven't noticed any floating away in 4 or 4a, but even when they did I was missing out on the matter reward, which isn't really satisfying. And if they're docked with your station, they're never going away, you just gotta take your lumps and lose half your crew to buggy collisions and asphyxiation.

Even if there were no reward, their presence is annoying. They block where you'll build, they'll clip and destroy asteroids which you'd normally mine for much more matter, and there's just there and they won't go away. Some other active way of removing their presence would be a lot more enjoyable - I really do like the idea of a self-destruct button. It turns derelicts into the mini-adventures they're meant to be, with cautious exploration leading up to a confrontation and ending with an exciting race to get out in time. They're there and then they're gone and you're free to do whatever else you want now, maybe do another one.

As they are right now, whenever a new derelict rolls in I roll my eyes and prepare for an unfun, long-term engagement. I'm not ready for that sort of commitment, I want a one night stand!

also they fuck with pathing.

two ideas spring to mind.

Suicide crew - Carrying a bomb over and detonating it.

Personal cloaking feild - equip a security person with it, send her/he over to sneak in, hack the system, set self destruct and GTFO, possibly a research option that you then have to build at a cost.

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Quick note: alpha 4b went live today with some critical fixes, but NOT any improvements on demolition. Sorry to disappoint. Those fixes will take a while.

We definitely want to give more support to rapidly tearing these things down, though.

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I think that it might also help with demolitions if a player could queue commands to builders; e.g. demolish door, then demolish wall, then demolish floor. That preserves the safety against depressurizing a section of the base with an accidental click of the mouse but would take lots of the tedium out of demolishing derelicts.

It would also potentially make building simpler if a player could queue commands to build a room, zone it, then place objects.

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If door demolition is automtically prioritized above everything else, that would also solve much of the stuck builder-problem of derelict demolition. Even if one builder gets stuck in a door, chances are another builder will come by and demolish is, before the first one runs out fo oxygen.

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Currently I'm having trouble getting my security force to even inspect derelicts, that being said if this was no longer a problem I'd like to just be able to click a derelict and check a box to have the whole thing demolished.

Other than that I think in-base demolition works fine, I do believe that in-base demo/construction should be higher priority in the AI and that AI should do more re-checks for high priority tasks. I say this just because, as it stands builders seem like they would rather work on a derelict than build anything in the base or fix haul breaches.

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As I said in this thread, I really really would like to have a proper away team, consisting of security people, engineers, builders and maybe even bartenders (as a kind of diplomat). Exploring derelicts with them could be so much fun. You could design different types of obstacles they encounter. For example, a locked door could be hacked by a technician, while a door that was destroyed in purpose to lock a room would have to be cleared by a builder (with explosives!). They could assemble in a special preparation room, which would have to be researched first. There they would have lockers for their Stuff and Spacesuits and a place for a short briefing before each mission. Players could assemble them by clicking "Start an exploration mission" (or something similar) and then the player would set an exploration beacon. The team would then go to that beacon and explore the area around it until no fog of war is left.

In the thread I mentioned earlier, "FordGT90Concept" had the good idea of having small crafts to get to the derelicts airlock. I think it would be absolutely brilliant to have small shuttlepods flying around the base! It would liven things up and they could be used for scheduled transport between two parts of the base, which would be a great way of integrating derelicts into the base. Having shuttles should be expensive, so that a rich base could only have two or three of them. Maybe they should use matter as fuel.

They also could be used to slowly and controlled push/tug away derelicts. Or they could bring Miners to the surface of whatever the station is orbiting if there is not much matter left in the system.

Also, i want my own veteran boarding party, that no slimy worm from outer space can ever stop! :) Only after a derelict is fully explored would it imho make sense to demolish it, because you have to make sure no one is inside. After that, builders in spacesuits could just start on the outside of the derelict and tear the whole thing apart without caring about oxygen or other dangers hidden in there.

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As I said in this thread, I really really would like to have a proper away team, consisting of security people, engineers, builders and maybe even bartenders (as a kind of diplomat). Exploring derelicts with them could be so much fun. You could design different types of obstacles they encounter. For example, a locked door could be hacked by a technician, while a door that was destroyed in purpose to lock a room would have to be cleared by a builder (with explosives!). They could assemble in a special preparation room, which would have to be researched first. There they would have lockers for their Stuff and Spacesuits and a place for a short briefing before each mission. Players could assemble them by clicking "Start an exploration mission" (or something similar) and then the player would set an exploration beacon. The team would then go to that beacon and explore the area around it until no fog of war is left.

In the thread I mentioned earlier, "FordGT90Concept" had the good idea of having small crafts to get to the derelicts airlock. I think it would be absolutely brilliant to have small shuttlepods flying around the base! It would liven things up and they could be used for scheduled transport between two parts of the base, which would be a great way of integrating derelicts into the base. Having shuttles should be expensive, so that a rich base could only have two or three of them. Maybe they should use matter as fuel.

They also could be used to slowly and controlled push/tug away derelicts. Or they could bring Miners to the surface of whatever the station is orbiting if there is not much matter left in the system.

Also, i want my own veteran boarding party, that no slimy worm from outer space can ever stop! :) Only after a derelict is fully explored would it imho make sense to demolish it, because you have to make sure no one is inside. After that, builders in spacesuits could just start on the outside of the derelict and tear the whole thing apart without caring about oxygen or other dangers hidden in there.

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What would you expect to happen if you drag-select vaporize an entire derelict in fog of war? Not in fog of war? How about a combination of claimed and unclaimed rooms? What if you drag-vaporize some walls in your base and also some floors? What if that includes some objects? Consider the case where you're trying to tear down a wall between rooms, or just destroy a few objects, or where you want to just nuke a whole room from orbit (it's the only way to be sure).

I apologize if somebody mentioned this already but my idea is to have a couple choices for type of demolish. One 'safe' that will not select objects that would lead to decompression, and one 'dangerous' that would just grab it all. Maybe builders will only do that one in space suits?

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What would you expect to happen if you drag-select vaporize an entire derelict in fog of war? Not in fog of war? How about a combination of claimed and unclaimed rooms? What if you drag-vaporize some walls in your base and also some floors? What if that includes some objects? Consider the case where you're trying to tear down a wall between rooms, or just destroy a few objects, or where you want to just nuke a whole room from orbit (it's the only way to be sure).

I apologize if somebody mentioned this already but my idea is to have a couple choices for type of demolish. One 'safe' that will not select objects that would lead to decompression, and one 'dangerous' that would just grab it all. Maybe builders will only do that one in space suits?

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I agree with multiple demolish commands, at minimum they should be

demolish walls

demolish objects

demolish floors

you send one command then queue the next and autopilot the rest.

Or what if click drag = objects,

shift w drag = wall plus objects

shift w f drag = everything

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That's a lot of specialized commands for dealing with ONE thing in the game - when demolishing stuff in your own base, it works perfectly. I'd rather not muddle up the demolition controls - if it's a derelict, you should be able to either manually demolish it (if you want to repurpose it for your base, like with boarders) or get rid of the entire thing all at once. Keep it simple, stupid.

To make manual demolishing easier (for when you want to keep part of the derelict intact to use as a new room, for example) the fog of war should only ever "grey out" a room - any room that's ever been explored should always be visible at all times, along with any furniture inside. The black and grey obscuring tiles should only be over rooms that have never been explored. Otherwise, it should follow exactly the same rules as deconstructing stuff in your own base. Keep it consistent.

For getting rid of it all in an instant, I still favor a self destruct button - you get all the matter, but you better book it out of there 'cause anything left inside is gonna die. Or you can turn on its engines so it flies off to be someone else's problem. Give it a hard tap so it drifts away. Anything, really, so long it goes away and you get all the matter you would've gotten from demolishing it by hand.

Derelicts are mini-adventures, they need to act more like tiny dungeons. What do you do in a dungeon? You go inside, kill the bad guys, take their loot, then leave to go back to town and find a quest to go to a new dungeon. When's the last time you had fun deconstructing an entire dungeon in Terraria? Here's a hint, never. That's why Starbound has the 3D printer, no one likes deconstructing NPC-built shit.

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So...

My problem with demolition is suicidal ai.

I've had security guards go into a derelict before I mark for demolition, they stand in the air lock until they suffocate.

I've had security go into after I partially demolished because the airlock was broken and I couldn't repair just to see them go through the inner airlock, take off their suit then suffocate.

As almost feels like marking someone security is a drop into the negative IQs and a pretty fast death sentence.

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I've begun to have success with demolition using the following process:

When rooms are explored, I claim them

As I claim them, I unzone them except for 1 airlock and any life support zones.

After the initial exploration is completed and everyone is back off the derelict (including any scientist who comes to get a datacube), I unzone the airlock and the life support zones. Unclaiming areas seems to encourage crew to leave the derelict more quickly and to prevent other crew from showing up.

I demolish one external wall section in each room. Between that and unzoning the airlock, my crew stays in their space suits.

I then complete demolition at leisure: objects first, then walls, then the floor

Seems to work pretty smoothly.

My remaining headache is when the derelict--which is open to space--catches fire and crew that have better things to do come rushing to stomp the fire out. . .

Hope that helps. . .

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Another observation:

In the current build, all objects are demolished with a swipe of the mouse over walls. Doors, after they are demolished, leave a section(s) of wall after they are demolished. There is good reason for that. If a player demos all the doors, then swipes the mouse over the remaining walls and objects, things go very smoothly (assuming you've managed your demolition to make sure that crew stay in their spacesuits.

If a player limits demolition to one derelict at a time, builders tend to manage their air supply better. In the same way, miners manage their air supply better if a player marks one asteroid at a time for mining.

For what it's worth. . .

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When I encountered three pass demolition, it made sense to me, because I saw that there isn't really a way to select which layer you want when things are on top of other things. Preventing demolishing floors is great! Since builders really do just do that. As for the idea of a faster indiscriminate demolishing, could it be a mining option to just vaporize an area?

All that said, Two pass demolition, or a demolition filter (e.g. demolish from floor up, demolish walls and objects, dezone and only demolish objects that aren't tied down leaving structure intact, etc ) would be great.

While this is slightly off topic, but related, I would like to see a DANGER beacon suggesting that your crew avoid an area.

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