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Sigil Symbol Suggestion Thread

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I'd like to see some Southwestern imagery - cactus, roadrunners, rattlesnakes, suns with rays, a Zia, and such.

?ACT=36&fid=54&aid=4006_vCF0wRclHqECDha2LHCR&board_id=1

2586_Greater_Roadrunner_11-19-2007_2.jpg

250px-Flag_of_New_Mexico.svg.png

Flag_of_Arizona.svg

I'd also like to see a good selection of swords (rapiers, longswords, etc.):

CASSH2035TS.jpg

618px-Stone_Avenue_underpass_Tucson_emblem.jpg

618px-Stone_Avenue_underpass_Tucson_embl

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I'd also like to see a good selection of swords (rapiers, longswords, etc.):

CASSH2035TS.jpg

Pfft, we only need a flamberge.

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250px-Flag_of_New_Mexico.svg.png

A few things with this sort of aesthetic or even this design itself, I think could be pretty cool.

Edit: I tried to see if I could make something southwesty from what we have available right now:

5c7ac3b591e96c47965ccc197ae5b3ba.png

Smiles

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I made this house sigil after you announced that you were going to allow us to have our own house sign if you are a $100 backer. I am hoping this might make it into the final build.

I call it Temple Guardian.

House Sigil-page-001-2.jpg

578d0072a2f7b_HouseSigil-page-001-2.jpg.

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I made this house sigil after you announced that you were going to allow us to have our own house sign if you are a $100 backer. I am hoping this might make it into the final build.

I call it Temple Guardian.

You'll have to adjust your colors for sure, since you have 3 colors in there right now. And it looks like the v.1 of the editor doesn't quite have the shapes you'd like. But the 'tapered rectangle' or long skinnier triangle (the dead space in the face) you have seems like an easy enough shape for them add to the mix (though likely minus the cut away bit into the eyes, you'd have to use some horizontal long diamond layer, which eats up a layer). Your circle is more rounded than they'll probably go for, but the current circle or the circle oval is pretty close. And the central part with the line down it, might be able to work, though again, right now some extra items would make things easier. It looks like there are probably around 6 layers in your image, so some adjustments would probably have to be made.

Anyways, look forward to the next editor update, and seeing what you and everyone else can do.

Smiles

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Love how the blood line editor only has 5 weapons (two of which are arrows) as of 7:45AM CST 5/16/2014.

This is not what was promised last year, and seems to have ignored feedback on the thread meant to touch with the community and find out what we bloodline backers wanted. http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/13604/P0/

I will be PMing for a refund as described: http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewreply/340319/

Seriously, only 17 animals, 28 shapes, 6 environments, 14 nature objects, 11 object objects, 14 organic objects, & 5 weapons (two of which are arrows?!) = 95 total.

You have 2,152 bloodline backers.

That's a ratio of 22 bloodline backers per singular image. Sorry guys, this feels like it's phoned in.

Couldn't get bloodline backer artwork done despite it raising an extra $172,160? v_v

Cue Smiles' defense in 3...

EDIT: Apologies, this was prompted by the newest update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fines-massive-chalice/posts/845378

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Seriously, only 17 animals, 28 shapes, 6 environments, 14 nature objects, 11 object objects, 14 organic objects, & 5 weapons (two of which are arrows?!) = 95 total.

You have 2,152 bloodline backers.

only 95 total.

only

veronicasalt.jpg

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Cue Smiles' defense in 3...

Not necessary, AnAnemoneInAnonymity has did a fine job. :-) Fun pills and sleds for Seneschul. Brad reached out to you earlier in this topic, did you discuss things with him?

Smiles

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Seriously, only 17 animals, 28 shapes, 6 environments, 14 nature objects, 11 object objects, 14 organic objects, & 5 weapons (two of which are arrows?!) = 95 total.

You have 2,152 bloodline backers.

That's a ratio of 22 bloodline backers per singular image.

Interesting. I never thought of it like that before. I think they're still working on it, but still, so far, from a mathematical perspective:

There are 5 layers, so if image order doesn't matter and you allow image repetition, you can have

(95+5-1)!

------------ = 71,523,144 unique cominations

5!(95-1)!

71,523,144 * 80 color combinations = 5,721,851,520 combinations

That still doesn't take into account rotation, scaling, inverting, and the imagination of the human mind.

5,721,851,520 / 2,152 ~= 2,658,852 combinations per user. (Hey, Brad, can we make more than one?)

(My math may be a bit rusty. Feel free to double-check my work.)

Citations:

Math is fun: Combinations with repetition:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations.html

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Anemone sounds like one of those biodrones who parrots the developers talking about "gamer entitlement". Check your paying-customer privilege! Ah say if a developer doesn't consider its' patrons entitled to a product they enjoy then neither should the developer consider itself entitled to a profitable business.

Ah've to agree with Seneschal on this one. The editor's being referred to as locked despite bloodline backers like Lightknight77 and DblBlac submitting symbols before the deadline which have not been added to the editor.

Smiles solution is basically, "you could make a facsimile of your symbol using those provided" which begs the question if not to have their symbols incorporated into the game whole then for what service were the bloodline backers paying?

Even if you were paying one of the artists on staff like the brewer or Mnemonic's lead $100 an hour he could get more than one symbol made per hour leaving funding left over for other expenditures. No, that's not meant to be a realistic example, it's meant to show how extremely feasible the inclusion of more symbols is.

If there's some technical difficulty to adding more symbols then tell the community and we'll be more sympathetic.

At the very least, if not adding the symbols themselves then the team should spend the time and money to allow the importation of images into the editor so everyone can get the symbols they want.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/276/0/3/judge_dredd_by_heroforpain-d5go2uc.jpg

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Anemone sounds like one of those biodrones who parrots the developers talking about "gamer entitlement". Check your paying-customer privilege! Ah say if a developer doesn't consider its' patrons entitled to a product they enjoy then neither should the developer consider itself entitled to a profitable business.

I'm more like one of those biodrones who thinks kickstarter is a crowdsourcing platform and not a storefront. Therefore, no, I do not think seneschel is a "paying customer" who is entitled to anything. Reward tiers are a way of saying thanks, and if it turns out that the thanks takes a slightly different form, then whatever. You're still getting told thanks. This is equivalent to complaining that you're "not being thanked good enough".

Granted, I think developers on Kickstarter in general, and Kickstarter as a company in general, could stand to do a lot more work about communicating exactly what Kickstarter is and making sure that backers understand. It's not a pre-order store, but the way projects get pitched there often SOUNDS very pre-ordery, and it's understandable that people may therefore FEEL like it's kinda pre-ordery.

Fact. ---> It's not a pre-order store. <---Fact.

Therefore---whether you paid $15 or $100 or $10,000---that's on you. That's the whole point of kickstarter. THAT IS ON YOU.

That's the equivalent of going through the grocery store checkout and the cashier says, "Would you like to donate your change to support the local zoo?" And you say, "Sure. I love the zoo." And the cashier says, "Okay. You have the option to support the red panda, the tiger, or the orangutan." And at that point you respond, "WHAT?!?! I gave you MY 68 cents, and there isn't even a PLATYPUS?! This is bullsh*t! F**k this zoo project! I want my 68 cents back!"

Would that person not be kind of an a**hole? I submit that they would, and I submit that this is no different.

No, you are not a paying customer and you are not entitled to anything.

What you are....***PRESUMABLY***.... is a kind, generous person. But these "my thank you present isn't good enough" rants are very Veruca Salt and very depressing. They don't just make me annoyed; they make me sad.

Specifically, it makes me sad that there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides, and it's putting strain on something that should be a great opportunity for everyone.

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Anemone sounds like one of those biodrones who parrots the developers talking about "gamer entitlement". Check your paying-customer privilege! Ah say if a developer doesn't consider its' patrons entitled to a product they enjoy then neither should the developer consider itself entitled to a profitable business.

I'm more like one of those biodrones who thinks kickstarter is a crowdsourcing platform and not a storefront. Therefore, no, I do not think seneschel is a "paying customer" who is entitled to anything. Reward tiers are a way of saying thanks, and if it turns out that the thanks takes a slightly different form, then whatever. You're still getting told thanks. This is equivalent to complaining that you're "not being thanked good enough".

Granted, I think developers on Kickstarter in general, and Kickstarter as a company in general, could stand to do a lot more work about communicating exactly what Kickstarter is and making sure that backers understand. It's not a pre-order store, but the way projects get pitched there often SOUNDS very pre-ordery, and it's understandable that people may therefore FEEL like it's kinda pre-ordery.

Fact. ---> It's not a pre-order store. <---Fact.

Therefore---whether you paid $15 or $100 or $10,000---that's on you. That's the whole point of kickstarter. THAT IS ON YOU.

That's the equivalent of going through the grocery store checkout and the cashier says, "Would you like to donate your change to support the local zoo?" And you say, "Sure. I love the zoo." And the cashier says, "Okay. You have the option to support the red panda, the tiger, or the orangutan." And at that point you respond, "WHAT?!?! I gave you MY 68 cents, and there isn't even a PLATYPUS?! This is bullsh*t! F**k this zoo project! I want my 68 cents back!"

Would that person not be kind of an a**hole? I submit that they would, and I submit that this is no different.

No, you are not a paying customer and you are not entitled to anything.

What you are....***PRESUMABLY***.... is a kind, generous person. But these "my thank you present isn't good enough" rants are very Veruca Salt and very depressing. They don't just make me annoyed; they make me sad.

Specifically, it makes me sad that there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides, and it's putting strain on something that should be a great opportunity for everyone.

So... if I'm understanding your argument correctly, people who run Kickstarters have zero obligations to backers? I'm assuming that you're then okay with people who take Kickstarter money and run, since all those people who donated were just "thanking" them anyways?

If that's not what you're saying, please feel free to correct me, but I'm not sure how else to read it.

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So... if I'm understanding your argument correctly, people who run Kickstarters have zero obligations to backers? I'm assuming that you're then okay with people who take Kickstarter money and run, since all those people who donated were just "thanking" them anyways?

If that's not what you're saying, please feel free to correct me, but I'm not sure how else to read it.

Not quite. It works according to the same ethical standards that any other type of donation does.

For example, if you operate a store and you put a jar on your counter next to the register that says, "Donate to breast cancer research", and the jar fills up with fifty dollars, but you don't actually donate that money to breast cancer research, and instead you just use it to buy beer, then you are guilty of actual legal fraud.

In the case of something like kickstarter, if you give money to a developer who says they are going to use the money toward X but instead they use the money toward buying beer, then that is fraud. If they had no intention of actually putting the money toward the advertised cause but were only SAYING they would (i.e. lying) to get a bunch of money, then that is a criminal act, whether it occurs on kickstarter or elsewhere. There are specific laws/regulations about that kind of fraud identified and policed by the IRS and BBB.

But if you donate money to a particular cause, and then all of the money actually goes toward that cause, then I don't think you really have anything to complain about.

Even if someone on kickstarter asks for $10,000 to make an X, and they get the money, but they turn out to not be very good at making an X, so the $10,000 ultimately ends up going toward a kind of crappy X, then it doesn't matter. YOU were the one who chose to give them money, knowing that they may or may not be very good at this. That was all you. They asked for money to make an X, they used 100% of the donated funds to honestly make an X. Case closed.

So, in short, yes, they have a very real and legal obligation to backers, but some backers are confused and think there is a whole different level of obligation there that really isn't.

(Note: This happens all the time in academics. People get grants for thousands of dollars to research X, and a lot of times that research turns out to not be very fruitful. And when that happens, the people who granted (i.e. donated) the money don't bang their fists on the table proclaiming that they paid for results and demanding their money back. They don't do that because they knew what they were doing and they knew that's just the way that kind of transaction works. Kickstarter uses a similar kind of transaction, but many backers do not understand how it works.)

But like I said, there is confusion on both sides. Crowdsourcing has never been done on such a huge public scale before kickstarter, so it is raising all kinds of new questions, and some of those kinks are still getting worked out. The first round of investigations into people using kickstarter fraudulently to raise a bunch of money in the name of projects they never attempted to complete has already begun.

I feel like Double Fine asked for money to make a game, and if you gave them money with your blessing, then that's the end of it. Regardless of whether

....A) they produce an amazingly kick ass game that achieves everything the devs wanted to achieve and gives the backers every last thing they ever wanted OR...

.....B) they produce a mediocre game that only kinda sorta achieves what the devs wanted to achieve, and ends up having to cut out a handful of things the backers initially wanted, mostly as a result of the campaign only raising SOME money instead of INFINITE money....

THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER. They have not done anything wrong.

Unless you can prove that Double Fine deliberately lied about the scale of the game or deliberately lied about the scale/quality of rewards they were going to send to you in order to use your money in a dishonest/fraudulent way (e.g. using your money to buy beer instead of investing it in the project), then I don't think you have anything to complain about.

If you gave Double Fine $100 to support their plan to do X, but it later turned out that due to certain unavoidable realities, the original plan for X was not going to work and needed to be redesigned, so in the end you got a redesigned X instead but still got your X as promised and all of the $100 you donated still went toward that redesigned X? You have no right to complain. If you were unhappy and Double Fine wanted to refund your money out of the kindness of their hearts and to show good will toward their customers, they could do that if they wanted, but you can't accuse them of being dishonest. That's less an example of dishonesty/incompetence on DF's part and more an example of a naive backer trying to paint their own lack of wisdom/life experience/judgment as something DF did to them rather than something they did to themselves.

Directly from the kickstarter website:

Kickstarter Basics: Accountability

Who is responsible for completing a project as promised?

It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter is not involved in the development of the projects themselves.

Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it.

How do backers know if a project will follow through?

Launching a Kickstarter is a very public act, and creators put their reputations at risk when they do.

Backers should look for creators who share a clear plan for how their project will be completed and who have a history of doing so. Creators are encouraged to share links and as much background information as possible so backers can make informed decisions about the projects they support.

If a creator has no demonstrable experience in doing something like their project or doesn't share key information, backers should take that into consideration. Does the creator include links to any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects? Does the creator appear in the video? Have they connected via Facebook?

Don't hesitate to request information from a creator. You can always reach out before pledging via the "Contact me" button on the project page.

I feel like the idea of a donation is not something kickstarter should HAVE to explain, but there it is.

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Uh, AnAnemoneInAnonymity, I don't see Kickstarter using the word "Donation".

Least of all in your quote.

I do see donation oriented kickstarts - however, these actually use the word "Donation" on their page.

Doublefine is conspicuous in not using the word "Donation" on their kickstarter page.

Furthermore, Doublefine did not treat this as a donation; they treated it as an exchange of goods.

Reading the bit on accountability, it says to me I should kick up a huge fuss about any action on the project's part that feels insincere to me, to help make sure people in the future are aware of that project's bad faith behavior.

Accountability by making sure folks are aware of the bad faith actions.

I have yet to be contacted by Doublefine for constructive compromise.

I have been dressed down by fanfolks.

I have been offered a refund (Which I said Ok to, but have not received a responce to the "Ok" nor have I received the refund)

How do backers know if a project will follow through?

Launching a Kickstarter is a very public act, and creators put their reputations at risk when they do.

Backers should look for creators who share a clear plan for how their project will be completed and who have a history of doing so. Creators are encouraged to share links and as much background information as possible so backers can make informed decisions about the projects they support.

The plan seemed clear - when the plan became not so clear, I publicly asked in the comments for clarity. There was no response to the comment. Instead, the FAQ was silently updated and no mention given. See the original comment.

If a creator has no demonstrable experience in doing something like their project or doesn’t share key information, backers should take that into consideration. Does the creator include links to any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects? Does the creator appear in the video? Have they connected via Facebook?

Doublefine would appear to be capable of doing what they originally stated, based on the number and general quality of games they've conceived and brought to the table. I trusted them.

Don’t hesitate to request information from a creator. You can always reach out before pledging via the “Contact me” button on the project page.

I repeatedly reached out to doublefine, by the comment before the thing closed, by email, by kickstarter messages and with greater frequency as time passed.

I'm open to compromise. 95 images with practically no requests from this thread is not compromise.

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@Seneschul - I'm sorry that we didn't get back to your faster! We're working to get you a refund as quickly as we can.

We tried really hard to accommodate as many requests as possible, but we have to focus our efforts on the game part of the game and not the editor. I really want Derek to be focused on the UI and the other 10,000 things that he has to do in order for us to ship this game to you guys! :D

I believe that we're delivering something really cool with the editor and I'm already blown away by the creativity that people are exhibiting! Constraints aren't always the worst things in the world and we feel like we're providing some rad options and a lot of flexibility with the tool. Not everyone is going to agree with our decisions and that's ok too! We thank you all for your support! :D!

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Of all the things that people could possibly get upset about with this project, I find this particular bit to be the weirdest.

My own two cents on the actual subject at hand:

I don't know how integral the banner shape is to the UI at this point, but it makes sigil designs a lot harder than if it were something more like a shield shape. Almost everything below the two forks ends up being dead space. In fact, most of the designs I've made end up turning into shield-style designs with the two forks becoming dead space:

izBihiA.jpg

e6KtUFx.jpg

(Anyone's free to use that skull jester, btw. I really like it, but it's not going to go on my sigil.)

Sigil requests/suggestions:

The bear is kind of difficult to ID as a bear, especially in any scale other than the original. And if you're going to do a frog, you need to do the whole bullfrog body thing. The existing frog is a little bit Kermit for my tastes.

More trees, specifically, more symmetrical trees. And an evergreen would be nice as well.

A dog, rather than just a wolf. And a more generic cat face that could stand in for something other than a lion. Raccoons? I like raccoons. More raccoons, please.

A non-lightning cloud element would be good.

A griffin would be nice. That's pretty classic heraldry. Some other mythical critters would also be fun.

Some animal bodies and animals in profile would be good. The faces are difficult to chimerize. Not going to be able to get much of a unicorn out of that horse, for example.

Fish that aren't butterfly fish. More animals in general, really.

Ocean waves would be nice. There's something that might be a wave in the editor already, but frankly it looks more like a shark's fin. Which is also kind of cool, I guess.

A more shield-like shield would be nice. The existing shield looks more like a police badge.

One other thing: it would be nice to have a database of sigils that I could see before I submitted mine. That way I could make sure that I'm not the 300th wolf sigil, or that I'm not submitting something that's identical to 12 other sigils.

I'd also like to second the request for more weapons. I get that the weapons we've got so far are all from the game mechanics, but most of them just aren't that recognizable from profile. I know what a caberjack looks like, but I'm also following the teamstreams, and am posting on the Massive Chalice message board. Might be that a sword or a knife would be a more useful icon for the more casual fan.

I'm also just going to dump a list of animals that I'd potentially want below. This is going to come off a little bit "conversation with a five-year-old", but you asked for it:

Mongoose

Orca

Otter

Ferret

Tiger

Puma

Lynx

Cassowary

Whale

Dolphin

Triceratops (still paying attention? Yes? But seriously, Triceratops.)

Mouse

Rabbit

Coyote

Gorilla

Sea Lion

Narwhal

Kangaroo

Badger

Prairie Dog

Cobra

Camel

Hummingbird

Turtle

Horned Beetle

Ant

Warthog or a Boar, or something with tusks

Mastodon

Bighorn Goat, with or without jetpack.

Moose? Look, you got the Maple Leaf in there already, let's just go all out Canadian in this thing.

Beaver. See above.

Bat (Someone's going to submit the Wayne family bloodline. You know they are. Might as well help them out.)

Kiwi (actually, hold on a second. Yeah, okay, maybe y'all should be in charge of this one.)

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I want a family of proud bards! (If not in game mechanics than at least in flavor.) How about a lute? :D

More generally, more non combat objects will be good:

Hunting Horn

Book

Candle

Lute

Bagpipe

Drums

Wagon

Bonfire

Money (whatever currency is in this world...)

Scroll

etc.

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