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Jethro

The 1.0 Release: Lack of Communication and Disappointment

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See the homepage.

There will be one last content update, otherwise merely bug fixes.

Anyway, I want to let you all know that I just bought Hack 'n' Slash out of spite. Because I'm a freaking idiot. I hope you're happy now...

I hadn't purchased Hack n' Slash because I'm not sure that it's my kind of game, but because of this thread, I'm gonna go buy Hack n' Slash right now.

I'm also gonna pre-order Costume Quest 2 while I'm at it!

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Anyway what is Spacebase about? I got here from a Reddit thread.
Remember Theme Hospital?

If Yes - think that, only replace 'hospital' with 'space station'.

If No - it's basically about building, maintaining and expanding a space station, from hiring janitors to mining asteroids.

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That article is from last November, ROBOTUSSIN. Development of the game has continued since then, so where did the money for that constant work come from? You could argue that it came from additional sales, but if sales dropped off - which seems logical, they tend to do that - then there's very real chance that they've burned through this supposed big stack of money they've been diving into Scrooge McDuck style.

Honestly, we don't know all the details (and us mods certainly don't, so don't ask). But it's DoubleFine - they really don't seem like the sort of guys who'd just take the money and run.

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That article is from last November, ROBOTUSSIN. Development of the game has continued since then, so where did the money for that constant work come from? You could argue that it came from additional sales, but if sales dropped off - which seems logical, they tend to do that - then there's very real chance that they've burned through this supposed big stack of money they've been diving into Scrooge McDuck style.

Honestly, we don't know all the details (and us mods certainly don't, so don't ask). But it's DoubleFine - they really don't seem like the sort of guys who'd just take the money and run.

It was supposed to come from that $400k that they made in two weeks.

also remember, this $400k was supposed to give us a complete game, in which we right now have only of a game. The agreement to was that all profits from SB goes to the development of SB. 4 people got $400k+ and we didn't even get a fourth of a game. This was less than a year ago. It hasn't even been a year and they are dropping the game when this artical PROVES that they not only funded the game but also have been making a profit from it.

So if money wasn't the issue, either we have another case of a cash grab or something even dumber.

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http://indie-fund.com/2013/11/spacebase-df-9-recoups-investment-in-two-weeks/

So if it isn't a money problem then what is it?

Remember: this $400k was supposed to cover the WHOLE LIST in the project book for them.

It was supposed to come from that $400k that they made in two weeks.

also remember, this $400k was supposed to give us a complete game, in which we right now have only of a game. The agreement to was that all profits from SB goes to the development of SB. 4 people got $400k+ and we didn't even get a fourth of a game. This was less than a year ago. It hasn't even been a year and they are dropping the game when this artical PROVES that they not only funded the game but also have been making a profit from it.

So if money wasn't the issue, either we have another case of a cash grab or something even dumber.

That article only points out that DF was able to break even on the money they got from indie fund, which puts them back $0.

Also, do you have a source that says DF9 could develop everything on their original list for only $400k?

All the indie fund article says is that DF9 needed $400k. It doesn't say the whole project could be done for ONLY $400k.

You're just angry, and I'm not saying you shouldn't be, but you're talking about things you don't actually know about. You're speculating about what happened and then assuming you're right and getting worked up about it.

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In general, developers care about their games at least as much as the fans do. They want to see their games achieve full potential every bit as much as the fans. And this is true even if they are 'fly-by-night indie developers' (not sure why make that snark toward indie devs there, but w/e).

I'm sure it's also true for the DF9 team; it's their baby and they want to see it flourish.

So, DF-9 team, if you guys are reading this: I know it must be abit disheartening to see all the anger, but for the most part, I think fans are worried because they love the game and see a lot of potential in it, and they're just afraid of the possibility that the potential might not become reality.

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That article is from last November, ROBOTUSSIN. Development of the game has continued since then, so where did the money for that constant work come from? You could argue that it came from additional sales, but if sales dropped off - which seems logical, they tend to do that - then there's very real chance that they've burned through this supposed big stack of money they've been diving into Scrooge McDuck style.

Honestly, we don't know all the details (and us mods certainly don't, so don't ask). But it's DoubleFine - they really don't seem like the sort of guys who'd just take the money and run.

It was supposed to come from that $400k that they made in two weeks.
$400,000 is not enough to continue development in San Francisco from last November to now. Tim Schafer has stated that it costs $10,000 per month to employ one person in the San Francisco bay area (and looking at the cost of living in the bay area myself of certainly seems accurate (studio apartments, meaning just a bedroom and a bathroom and nothing else start in the $1,000 a month range), especially when you factor in the cost that goes with the fact that every Double Fine employee has full medical and dental coverage, which is still ridiculously expensive in the United States, even with the Affordable Care Act), so that $400,000 would definitely be gone long before now.

The continued development almost certainly came from sales from the game, and the continued development will likely come from further sales, or whatever saved collective income Double Fine has (Double Fine are still going to release 1.0, plus the source code release after that, and bug fixes even after 1.0, which will probably mean developers will still be working on Spacebase DF-9 for quite a while, since they'll want to make sure that everything continues to work dandy with any mods that are released).

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http://indie-fund.com/2013/11/spacebase-df-9-recoups-investment-in-two-weeks/

So if it isn't a money problem then what is it?

Remember: this $400k was supposed to cover the WHOLE LIST in the project book for them.

It was supposed to come from that $400k that they made in two weeks.

also remember, this $400k was supposed to give us a complete game, in which we right now have only of a game. The agreement to was that all profits from SB goes to the development of SB. 4 people got $400k+ and we didn't even get a fourth of a game. This was less than a year ago. It hasn't even been a year and they are dropping the game when this artical PROVES that they not only funded the game but also have been making a profit from it.

So if money wasn't the issue, either we have another case of a cash grab or something even dumber.

That article only points out that DF was able to break even on the money they got from indie fund, which puts them back $0.

Also, do you have a source that says DF9 could develop everything on their original list for only $400k?

All the indie fund article says is that DF9 needed $400k. It doesn't say the whole project could be done for ONLY $400k.

You're just angry, and I'm not saying you shouldn't be, but you're talking about things you don't actually know about. You're speculating about what happened and then assuming you're right and getting worked up about it.

The money they got from indiedev was supposed to make a complete game. They gave them $400k to make a complete game. While they are still in dept to them it's still money to keep and develop a full game from. Right when the project started it went EA, which made another $400k. They would then be at $800k, $400 they would keep from indie dev and the new 400 from EA. Even if they did pay them back the $400, they still would be left with $400, the original estimate for making the complete game with everything on the list they had give or take.

Now asuming that they paid off that dept, they are now making pure profits from the game for almost a year, and if they where able to get $400k in 2 weeks I doubt sales for it would have just stopped on the dot 2 weeks.

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The money they got from indiedev was supposed to make a complete game. They gave them $400k to make a complete game. While they are still in dept to them it’s still money to keep and develop a full game from. Right when the project started it went EA, which made another $400k. They would then be at $800k, $400 they would keep from indie dev and the new 400 from EA. Even if they did pay them back the $400, they still would be left with $400, the original estimate for making the complete game with everything on the list they had give or take.
They are making a complete game, as the 1.0 release is going to come with features that make it one. As was said before, the feature list was never an indication of what they intended to deliver with the money they received. It was just a wish list of features, as it was stated from the get go that some features on the list weren't going to make it into the final product. They kept their end of the bargain with the Indie Fund and EA, since they will have delivered a complete gaming experience. Just because it's shorter than fans would have hoped, doesn't negate the fact that it's still going to be a complete game.

As I pointed out above, making a game in San Francisco is very expensive. Double Fine simply cut back on the scope to meet their financial needs. That happens all the time in game development. In this case though, Double Fine is also releasing the source code for the modding community, which rarely happens in situations where a game's scope is cut back, and is a really good thing. Plus, unlike many projects that are cut back in scope, Double Fine isn't going to be stopping development of Spacebase DF-9 completely. They'll still be releasing bug fixes for the game even after 1.0, so they won't have abandoned the game.

Now asuming that they paid off that dept, they are now making pure profits from the game for almost a year, and if they where able to get $400k in 2 weeks I doubt sales for it would have just stopped on the dot 2 weeks.
We don't know sales data for the game beyond the first two weeks, but it's certainly possible that interest dropped after release. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a product had great sales in the first few weeks and then floundered after that.

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Anyway what is Spacebase about? I got here from a Reddit thread.
Remember Theme Hospital?

If Yes - think that, only replace 'hospital' with 'space station'.

If No - it's basically about building, maintaining and expanding a space station, from hiring janitors to mining asteroids.

No janitors, remember they cut those out and a bunch of other things because they are being forced to release 1.0 now -_- (Which is part of why I am dissapointed)

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My biggest problem with the communication here is, that for me double fine stood for honesty in game developement. I've backed Broken Age and Massive Chalice and in the Broken Age Documentory from 2players prod they were really honest to the backers. Explained why they had to split it up. They even gave us numbers and example calculations. That was great. I was able to defend Double Fine against lots of haters with no clue. I was proud to be a backer.

Now this happens with Spacebase and they behave like one of those "evil publishers". Telling us, that everything is fine and really really cool, but in reality they just abandon the project... no honesty. That's sad.

Especially, because I'd love to be part of another Double Fine Kickstarter, the experience with Massive Chalice and Broken Age was great, but now I can't justify the trust needed to pledge anymore.

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If you can, go ahead and do it.

you should spike at least half of them though...

Why would you spike a beer? It already has beer in it.

or pull a shanghai.

It would be quite funny.

Maybe. We have to get Psychonauts 2 somehow.

who said you had to spike it with alcohol. How about [del]Redacted[/del] I mean some other kind of drug.

Ypu dont want to know what redacted used to be..... I can be a jerk sometimes.

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Space Janitors are an ancient and elusive breed. It's no wonder no one can find them.

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Wow, what a disappointment. I haven't followed the development of this game, but I've backed every project from Double Fine since the Broken Age kickstarter.

Seriously regret having faith in this company.

Fuck you, Double Fine.

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Wow, what a disappointment. I haven't followed the development of this game, but I've backed every project from Double Fine since the Broken Age kickstarter.

Seriously regret having faith in this company.

Fuck you, Double Fine.

The shang Hai idea is still in the air Double Fine *smiles wickedly*

Surprise_Enlistment.JPG

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But it's DoubleFine - they really don't seem like the sort of guys who'd just take the money and run.

That's why this news really sucks. I was really hoping smaller dev companies would step up and pull some magic and free us from those filthy Big Name Publishing companies that keep making awful iOS and tablet games, or bastardizing old, much loved IPs.

If it's a money thing, you'd think they could launch a new donations page or something. Or at least tell us. I was honestly considering that one package they offer for $40-60 to get my name in the credits even though I bought the game through Steam way back when.

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You guys say you are not-fly-by-nighters; just last update you said you'd keep us in the loop going forward because there was silence for the weeks prior.

...then you pull the plug completely?

The game is nowhere near finished - it's potential is untapped. Those of us who bought into early access to support the vision and take part in the development of something special have now had the rug pulled out from under us as you guys cut and run.

I can see this happening with any number of development studios but I would never have thought DoubleFine would join the list. Now I've seen it all.

Have you considered the impact this will have on gamer confidence? On trust? What sort of message do you think it sends that you effectively say 'that's it guys we're out - you finish the game yourselves!'

The whole Amnesia Fortnight process is undermined - nobody will care now because they will know that whatever is chosen may or may not be finished. The veracity of the process, the thrill of the journey and the move to a final product... none of it matters when you don't deliver.

Disappointed doesn't begin to describe it. I never post on these forums - but I had to come and say my piece in this instance. And while the mods may desperately fly to your defense - we all know on this one... your conduct is indefensible.

I expected more from DF, from Mr Schafer.

Suffice to say - you've lost a fan; and probably a customer. But it's the former that hurts the most.

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Well that's one thing to keep in mind. We don't even know that it IS a money thing.

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Wow, what a disappointment. I haven't followed the development of this game, but I've backed every project from Double Fine since the Broken Age kickstarter.

Seriously regret having faith in this company.

Fuck you, Double Fine.

The shang Hai idea is still in the air Double Fine *smiles wickedly*

Surprise_Enlistment.JPG

*evil laugh*

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Okay, lets just calculate this through

400'000$ : 12 months (November to November) = 33'333.33 $ to spend per month

33'333.33$ : 4 developers who have to get paid = 8'333, 33 $ of possible wage for each of the developers per month

So... from my calculations... either the developers have earned a shitload of money and depleted the money resources they got, or they bought PC's made out of platin.

I think that DoubleFine is either shitting on all of us and wants to run away with the money, or the investors of the 400k decided to leave the project behind... which would have resulted in money problems for DoubleFine.

AND THERE IS STILL NO ANSWER FROM THE DEVS HERE IN THE FORUMS! AND I CAN SEE ON THE LIST WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ONLINE ON THE FORUM THAT AT LEAST 2 OF THE DEVS WERE ONLINE!

Something is smelling pretty weird here....

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AND THERE IS STILL NO ANSWER FROM THE DEVS HERE IN THE FORUMS! AND I CAN SEE ON THE LIST WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ONLINE ON THE FORUM THAT AT LEAST 2 OF THE DEVS WERE ONLINE!

Something is smelling pretty weird here....

Give them a day or two, geez. They're probably just taking the time to put together the information before they reply, instead of firing off half-cocked.

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AND THERE IS STILL NO ANSWER FROM THE DEVS HERE IN THE FORUMS! AND I CAN SEE ON THE LIST WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ONLINE ON THE FORUM THAT AT LEAST 2 OF THE DEVS WERE ONLINE!

Something is smelling pretty weird here....

Give them a day or two, geez. They're probably just taking the time to put together the information before they reply, instead of firing off half-cocked.

Half-cocked? xD

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Just an FYI: using all-caps LIKE THIS is the internet equivalent of shouting, and we'd rather you didn't do that (unless you're doing stuff like sharing the news that they're making a Deadpool movie) as people tend to view it as being rather rude.

ANYWAY.

As Jenni mentioned earlier, Tim of Legend has himself said that it costs $10,000 a month to employ one person. Times that by 4 (which you've done): $40,000.

Times THAT by 12 (12 months), and you get $480,000.

Since they got $400,000 investment (which they'd have to pay back!), that means either DF would have had to make up the shortfall of $80,000 themselves or Tim was rounding up his numbers when it came to employment costs. Either way, the math is sound.

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Just an FYI: using all-caps LIKE THIS is the internet equivalent of shouting, and we'd rather you didn't do that (unless you're doing stuff like sharing the news that they're making a Deadpool movie) as people tend to view it as being rather rude.

ANYWAY.

As Jenni mentioned earlier, Tim of Legend has himself said that it costs $10,000 a month to employ one person. Times that by 4 (which you've done): $40,000.

Times THAT by 12 (12 months), and you get $480,000.

Since they got $400,000 investment (which they'd have to pay back!), that means either DF would have had to make up the shortfall of $80,000 themselves or Tim was rounding up his numbers when it came to employment costs. Either way, the math is sound.

THERE IS A DEADPOOL MOVIE? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!! :D

I just write big, because I don't think everybody will read the full text of my post, so I just want to highlight the important parts, but I guess colours will work, too.

I don't really believe this 10'000$ stuff that is obviously bullshit, sorry. Nobody just earns 10'000 dollars in the games industry as an employee from what I have heard.... and it wouldn't be reasonable if you want to develop the game over a longer time.

Found this on the internet: http://jobsearch.about.com/od/jobs/qt/programmer-earn.htm

Dunno what to think about this, though...

I mean... You wouldn't even pay so much if you include the costs for the rent and food on the workplace... and if this would be true... then the developers didn't work very efficiently when you look on the game content... which is making me really sad...

IMPORTANT: Don't take my opinion to seriously here, I am used to the Euro-currency, so I can't compare the wages and costs in America properly. If you have more knowledge than me, let me know.

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Every year, from my employer, I get a breakdown of my "total compensation", including health, dental, life insurance, and salary. $10,000/month is not far off from what number gets thrown around, and my salary would certainly be lower-middle class in SF.

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I don't really believe this 10'000$ stuff that is obviously bullshit, sorry. Nobody just earns 10'000 dollars in the games industry as an employee from what I have heard.... and it wouldn't be reasonable if you want to develop the game over a longer time.

The employees aren't getting the entire $10,000 as salary, they're getting it in pay plus benefits (as I said, the cost of living in the San Francisco bay area is really high (the smallest apartments start at the $1,000 a month range) and the cost for full medical and dental coverage (which Double Fine provides for all of their employees) is still ridiculously high in the United States, even with the Affordable Health Care act). Plus, as chickenmonger said, they also have to pay insurance for every employee. Taking those figures into consideration, the $10,000 figure certainly sounds about right to me.

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