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Re: Recent Events in Gaming Culture

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So if you're going to satirize that, probably the best approach isn't to create a mock-protest about a product that... it turns out the shop in question isn't even actually selling.

That one of the targeted shops wasn't selling. At least not in book form.

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So if you're going to satirize that, probably the best approach isn't to create a mock-protest about a product that... it turns out the shop in question isn't even actually selling.

That one of the target shops wasn't selling. At least not in book form.

All of Target, in Australia, which is the company that he needs to be addressing, otherwise the satire falls apart because then he's attacking the wrong, uh, Target. If we include the US, well...

http://www.target.com/p/grand-theft-auto-v-pc-games/-/A-15835443#prodSlot=medium_1_5&term=grand+theft+auto+5

Face it, it was a rubbish, poorly thought out satire.

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All of Target, in Australia, which is the company that he needs to be addressing, otherwise the satire falls apart because then he's attacking the wrong, uh, Target. If we include the US, well...

http://www.target.com/p/grand-theft-auto-v-pc-games/-/A-15835443#prodSlot=medium_1_5&term=grand+theft+auto+5

Face it, it was a rubbish, poorly thought out satire.

This is finding loopholes in what, essentially, is a joke. The point of satire is not to be logical. The point of satire is to point out stupidity by exaggerating the stupidity or drawing attention to it.

I personally thought it was great satire, because the Bible does actively promote violence against women.

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All of Target, in Australia, which is the company that he needs to be addressing, otherwise the satire falls apart because then he's attacking the wrong, uh, Target. If we include the US, well...

http://www.target.com/p/grand-theft-auto-v-pc-games/-/A-15835443#prodSlot=medium_1_5&term=grand+theft+auto+5

Face it, it was a rubbish, poorly thought out satire.

This is finding loopholes in what, essentially, is a joke. The point of satire is not to be logical. The point of satire is to point out stupidity by exaggerating the stupidity or drawing attention to it.

Wow, I don't understand how you still don't get this was a rubbish satire. 'pointing out stupidity' doesn't work when you've been just as stupid in selecting the elements of your satire.

You can't satirize a shop responding to a petition to pull a title from the shelves by making a mock petition for them to pull a product that they never even had ON the shelves. It doesn't work. The stupidity that the satire is attempting to point out is the hypocrisy that they wouldn't pull the Bible for the same reasons they pulled GTA5, which is severely weakened when they don't even sell Bibles. It doesn't work.

The thing about satire is that it IS logical, in the way that it draws attention to the illogical. If it's built on shaky foundations, it doesn't work. That's why it can be so effective as both a comedic and a political tool, because it often cuts to the truth harder and faster than other things. But you can't just wave it around willy nilly. Satire is a precision tool. I don't know if you're British like me or not or where you're from, but this country has a very rich history of satire, it's kind of our thing, and this particular attempt is markedly poor.

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It's doubly rubbish because Australian citizens still have a choice, they can choose to buy GTA at a different store. Again, saying that one store, not carrying a product, even on the grounds of a moral judgement, is denying someone some right is ridiculous.

The petition is not to ban the Bible -- it's aimed at Target Australia as a satirical criticism of their decision.

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The petition is not to ban the Bible -- it's aimed at Target Australia as a satirical criticism of their decision.
Which is precisely why it's a rubbish satire, see above:
You can’t satirize a shop responding to a petition to pull a title from the shelves by making a mock petition for them to pull a product that they never even had ON the shelves. It doesn’t work. The stupidity that the satire is attempting to point out is the hypocrisy that they wouldn’t pull the Bible for the same reasons they pulled GTA5, which is severely weakened when they don’t even sell Bibles. It doesn’t work.

How do you not see that doesn't work?

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Look, I'm not even saying that an effective satire could not be made of Target Australia's decision. Like Jim said in his video, their decision was cynical, and hypocritical, and self serving and all of these things are ripe for satire.

I'm just saying this ain't it. This is a really stupid satire by someone who is no more interested in the facts of the matter than people who he's railing against.

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You can't satirize a shop responding to a petition to pull a title from the shelves by making a mock petition for them to pull a product that they never even had ON the shelves. It doesn't work. The stupidity that the satire is attempting to point out is the hypocrisy that they wouldn't pull the Bible for the same reasons they pulled GTA5, which is severely weakened when they don't even sell Bibles. It doesn't work.

The main point of the satire is not about getting the Bible pulled, though. The Bible is the ideal target, because it makes headlines, because it has lots of fans, because it's suited for the sensationalist claims, not because Target wouldn't pull it.

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You can't satirize a shop responding to a petition to pull a title from the shelves by making a mock petition for them to pull a product that they never even had ON the shelves. It doesn't work. The stupidity that the satire is attempting to point out is the hypocrisy that they wouldn't pull the Bible for the same reasons they pulled GTA5, which is severely weakened when they don't even sell Bibles. It doesn't work.

The main point of the satire is not about getting the Bible pulled, though. The Bible is the ideal target, because it makes headlines, because it has lots of fans, because it's suited for the sensationalist claims, not because Target wouldn't pull it.

Target CAN'T pull it. Because they never sold it in the first place.

That's why the satire doesn't work.

If they were going to satirize something, they'd have to select something that Target DOES sell and that they wouldn't pull. And then draw the comparison "Oh hey, why'd they pull GTA V because of a bad claim but they wouldn't pull [insert product here]?" But they picked something that didn't exist instead. That's why it's dumb.

More obvious example:

Someone complains that McDonalds is irresponsible in having super sized meals, makes a petition and gets them pulled from all the stores in Australia.

I'm mad because I like super sized meals. So I make a "satirical" petition to McDonalds to tell them to stop selling Bibles as well because that's super sized religion.

McDonalds doesn't sell bibles. Cue hysterical laughter.

Do you SEE how ridiculous this is? The satire DOESN'T WORK if it's not something that could potentially happen. Ridiculous, yes, but it has to have at least one foot in reality or it falls apart.

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Exactly. Satirically making a petition for Target Australia to stop selling Bibles is as ridiculous as trying to make a point by making a satirical petition for McDonalds or Starbucks or the Carphone Warehouse to stop selling bibles.

The only way the satire could possibly work is if the point was: "Here's something you sell that you obviously wouldn't stop selling for the same reasons you stopped selling GTAV, because that would be ridiculous."

Let's imagine Target Australia did sell Bibles. Then the humour of the satire is derived thus: "Haha, let's pretend that we want bibles removed for the same reasons, which Target obviously wouldn't do because that would be silly! This will point out how ridiculous doing it for GTAV is!" It would hardly be a masterpiece, but it would, at least be functional satire.

Once they don't sell it, the joke becomes, "Haha... uh... bibles have some stuff in them don't they? Imagine if... if Target Austrialia did sell them, which they don't... and then, there was a thing to stop them from doing that... for the same reason as GTAV which they do actually stock" The whole joke deflates like a balloon or a pent-up fart.

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Target does sell some other adult oriented material, but there isn't anything that's even remotely as well known as the Bible or that would make the same headlines or could be as good for pointing out the hypocrisy. It would become just -- "let's get this other offensive stuff pulled just in spite".

Also, as I've pointed out, Target (who the petition was aimed at too) does sell the Bible and Target Australia does sell the DVD, so if you insist on technicalities, the joke does technically still work.

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Also, as I've pointed out, Target (who the petition was aimed at too) does sell the Bible

Yeah but as *I* pointed out, Target ALSO sells GTA V.

And the satire wasn't about the DVD dramatisation of the bible, was it?

Why is it so important to you that this is a good satire? It's -clearly- rubbish.

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The petition's entire point as satire falls apart though, because a company choosing not to sell a product, no matter what the reason, is not censorship. It's a company's right not to sell something. Target Australia doesn't sell bibles! Where's the moral outrage over censorship and bigotry toward Christianity there? There isn't because it's not rational to be upset about that.
Some people would probably be upset that Target AU didn't sell bibles (EDIT: or [pick a product] in particular) in the first place. For myself, as Christian, if I wanted a bible I would not initially go to Target or K-Mart to buy it (I would go to Mardel (a Christian bookstore) or Amazon because they both would obviously have better selection).
That's why the original petition is so freaking stupid, it has accomplished nothing, and that's why I don't understand people who are mad that a corporation paid it any mind, because they're making a mountain out of a mole hill, it's a non-event in the grand scheme of things.
And this is where I come down on it. They stopped selling GTA. Big freaking whoop. Buy it somewhere else; talk about something else.

BigWhoop1-MI3.gif

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Why is it so important to you that this is a good satire? It's -clearly- rubbish.

Why is it so important to you that this is a bad satire? It -clearly- works.

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Why is it so important to you that this is a good satire? It's -clearly- rubbish.

Why is it so important to you that this is a bad satire? It -clearly- works.

Because it's inconsequential either way. It accomplishes nothing, and becomes a joke in and of itself without even mentioning the content it [EDIT]satirizes parodies[/EDIT].

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Why is it so important to you that this is a good satire? It's -clearly- rubbish.

Why is it so important to you that this is a bad satire? It -clearly- works.

As someone that enjoys satire, I find it baffling that anyone could even stand by this and say it's even a functional -joke- let alone functional satire. It's a complete non-sequitur.

The entertainment world is already laden with people calling simple parody, or poor-taste jokes 'satire.' That's bad enough, now we have 'jokes' that crumble under the bare minimum scrutiny being labelled satire too.

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Because it's inconsequential either way. It accomplishes nothing, and becomes a joke in and of itself without even mentioning the content it satirizes.

Meh, it got laughs, it spread awareness, it made its point -- I'd say it accomplished what it intended. A bunch of people coming in afterwards and saying that the joke technically doesn't work doesn't change that.

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Because it's inconsequential either way. It accomplishes nothing, and becomes a joke in and of itself without even mentioning the content it satirizes.

Meh, it got laughs, it spread awareness, it made its point -- I'd say it accomplished what it intended. A bunch of people coming in afterwards and saying that the joke technically doesn't work doesn't change that.

This is exactly how bullsh*t spreads, though, isn't it?

Some person says some thing, sometimes as a joke that they haven't really fully thought through, and now there are a bunch of people who believe that Target Australia are hypocrites off the premise of that joke. So later someone will casually say down the pub, "yeah, but they sell the bible, don't they? That's got violence against women, doesn't it, ha ha!" so now it's part of the myth of what happened at Target Australia.

And someone will probably misinterpret it, and decide that what actually happened is that someone tried to get the bible banned too, and didn't succeed, and so it goes on.

The effort required to refute and control bullsh*t once it gets out into the world is much more than the effort required to produce it in the first place, so it's supremely unhelpful when one's satire is based on uninformed assumptions about what Target Australia might sell rather than actual facts.

It's just more grist to the bullsh*t mill, which is the kind of stuff that the GG-types thrive on. Why would we give them more bollocks for ammunition, when there's plenty of ways Target could be ridiculed that don't involve generating another piece of bullsh*t data point.

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Target Australia *are* hypocrites -- they continue to sell other adult oriented products while they pulled GTA as a token gesture, responding to an international petition, after having sold it for over a year and making a fortune off it.

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Target Australia *are* hypocrites -- they continue to sell other adult oriented products while they pulled GTA as a token gesture, responding to an international petition, after having sold it for over a year and making a fortune off it.

So call them out for being hypocrites -for the right reason-, don't build a satire on a premise that doesn't hold up to scrutiny and so (addressing the so-called satirist)

a) makes for a pretty weak joke

b) can be turned back against you to make you look silly

c) makes you appear as if you've no greater regard for the facts than the target of your satire.

You're being very selective about what you're responding to here, considering I already said (in more than one way), and I quote:

Look, I’m not even saying that an effective satire could not be made of Target Australia’s decision. Like Jim said in his video, their decision was cynical, and hypocritical, and self serving and all of these things are ripe for satire.

I’m just saying this ain’t it. This is a really stupid satire by someone who is no more interested in the facts of the matter than people who he’s railing against.

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What other product would get such a great response, though? What other product would be as recognisable as well as seem to promote violence against sex workers? Maybe someone misunderstands the joke, that's always a risk, but the joke was never about getting the Bible actually banned, and most people understand that.

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What other product would get such a great response, though? What other product would be as recognisable as well as promote violence against sex workers? Maybe someone misunderstands the joke, that's always a risk, but the joke was never about getting the Bible actually banned, and most people understand that.

It doesn't matter. If they joke doesn't work, use another angle. Don't just bullheadedly go with it anyway, and hope that nobody will notice it doesn't really work.

I mean, if I was mad at Odeon Cinemas for showing too many films with negative portrayals of women (which let's face it isn't exactly a crazy position to take, but anyway) it wouldn't be a good satire of my position to mock-complain to Odeon Cinemas about how they need to stop leaving bibles on the cinema seats too. Because... well... they don't do that! It would just be weird and nonsensical - a classic non-sequitur. If they did do that, it would work. But they don't, so it doesn't.

The only reason that this guy has got away with this non-sequitur, is that it's less -blatantly- wrong. In people's heads, the book is something they imagine that Target Australia does sell, or at least reckons they probably do, and they're not really interested in checking. So it relies on people's ignorance to work, making it a lazy, weak satire which is susceptible to an immediate riposte.

Good satire relies on the audience of the satire knowing better than the target of the satire. This satire relies on the audience being just as ignorant.

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A fundamental problem I have with you, Starker, is that you've proven time and time again that you're incapable of understanding that being a sack of dicks to make a point only makes people think a person, and by extension their cause, is full of shit.

They picked the Bible because there's a big overlap between neolibertarian atheists and GGers, and it's easier to rehash someone's earlier attempt to make a point than come up with a new one, even if the rehash doesn't make sense in context. I think the original version had something to do with a Darwin biopic or Harry Potter.

TL;DR- Someone was being lazy with their petition and didn't consider context.

Edited: Changed some wording so it's less unnecessarily hostile.

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But Target Australia selling the Bible wasn't even the point, really. The point was to point out that Bible has lots of points.. er.. content like this and that making a sensationalist campaign would be really easy, and it turned out to be incredibly popular to boot!

Like the author says, they wanted to highlight sensationalism with this campaign, and the petition did this very successfully.

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A fundamental problem I have with you, Starker, is that you've proven time and time again that you're incapable of understanding that being a sack of dicks to make a point only makes people think you, and by extension your cause, is full of shit. They picked the bible because there's a big overlap between neolibertarian atheists and GGers, and it's easier to rehash someone's earlier attempt to make a point than come up with a new one, even if the rehash doesn't make sense in context. I think the original version had something to do with a Darwin biopic or Harry Potter.

TL;DR- Someone was being lazy with their petition and didn't consider context.

Making a mock petition is being a sack of dicks to make a point, now?

Also, a pre-emptive disclaimer: I don't support GG, never have, never will.

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But Target Australia selling the Bible wasn't even the point, really. The point was to point out that Bible has lots of points.. er.. content like this and that making a sensationalist campaign would be really easy, and it turned out to be incredibly popular to boot!

Like the author says, they wanted to highlight sensationalism with this campaign, and the petition did this very successfully.

They were being lazy and picked a common target. They really should have petitioned that violent movies be removed from the shelves, like SAW or something.

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A fundamental problem I have with you, Starker, is that you've proven time and time again that you're incapable of understanding that being a sack of dicks to make a point only makes people think you, and by extension your cause, is full of shit. They picked the bible because there's a big overlap between neolibertarian atheists and GGers, and it's easier to rehash someone's earlier attempt to make a point than come up with a new one, even if the rehash doesn't make sense in context. I think the original version had something to do with a Darwin biopic or Harry Potter.

TL;DR- Someone was being lazy with their petition and didn't consider context.

Making a mock petition is being a sack of dicks to make a point, now?

With the target they picked being a jab at the traditional group of moral guardians, and not the actual petition makers? Yes. Yes it was.

Edit: Do you need me to go dig through the forum and pull up your posts on the Zoe Quinn pre-gamergate shitstorm? Although I appreciate that you're learning from past mistakes.

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Edit: Do you need me to go dig through the forum and pull up your posts on the Zoe Quinn pre-gamergate shitstorm? Although I appreciate that you're learning from past mistakes.

So what? I stand by what I said. I lost a lot of respect for Quinn after reading those logs, and I recognised it as the abuse that it was. Doesn't mean that I approve of the harassment that she received or of harassment against anyone, really.

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I think the reason, at least, why I'm belabouring this point, is that there is, in these events, an opportunity for common ground. GG is obviously fuming about the Target thing, but so are plenty of the targets of GG. Including Jim Sterling, and people who I've seen who are also targets of GG saying that Jim Sterling is entirely on-point.

Now, GG is going to be GG, there aren't many left in it who are inclined toward nuance, but there are a lot of people still prevaricating in the 'well yeah but they sort of have a point about these SJWs' zone. This type of thing SHOULD have been the perfect opportunity to demonstrate how: look, almost everyone hates what Target did, and the way the petitioners went about it, people being labeled SJWs. So maybe actually we learn something from this?

But when so many people on the blind-outrage at Target/the petitioners side seem unable to have a nuanced discussion, instead throwing around bullsh*t about censorship, and weak, faulty satire like this, it makes it hard for anyone with a more nuanced view to stand next to them, unless they have a platform where they can talk for 10 minutes at a time uninterrupted and with a large audience, like Jim Sterling.

By being just as overzealous and indiscriminate in their outrage as the people they are outraged at, they have made it toxic. And it is outrage, in this case.

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There will never be a dialogue with GG, not the least of which is the reason that it would give them legitimacy.

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