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Asirrelle

Are Hunters over powered?

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I'm open for suggestions on how we can tweak our existing enemy stable to be a bit more anti-Hunter! :D!

What if there was a projectile weapon on one of the enemies which instead of directly hitting enemies, burrows underneath the ground, and then seeks out from underground, and stealth doesn't work against that sort of projectile, but it also can't be directed towards particular targets. Maybe that would get super annoying, though.

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There should be an enemy that can see stealthed units, and pop them out of stealth. Maybe the wrinkler since that's probably the least effective enemy unit. Make him very resistant to ranged while you're at it. The multiple target bow clears seeds pretty easily so I don't think massing enemies is the answer.

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Brad: Right now, I feel like you should *NOT* do any further nerfing of hunters, and only minor tweaking of caberjacks. Hunters are maybe a little more useful in the early game, but late game, all three classes are pretty good, and caberjack stun and knockback are so very good. Though I do think alchemists have a bit too little utility, especially early game.

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There should be an enemy that can see stealthed units, and pop them out of stealth. Maybe the wrinkler since that's probably the least effective enemy unit. Make him very resistant to ranged while you're at it. The multiple target bow clears seeds pretty easily so I don't think massing enemies is the answer.

You can't hide from aging.

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I feel like the Hunter nerf is pretty good, but it might not be enough!

I was just talking to Chad about this the other day. I feel like one of the core problems is that there isn't an enemy type that is naturally strong vs. the Hunter. (or an enemy type that the Hunter is weak against) I'd rather not do a straight rock-paper-scissors type thing... I'm much more into softer, more emergent mechanics that make one unit weak or strong against another unit. For example the Rupture is naturally better vs. melee units because even in death he will injure them!

In a real-time game the single-target, high damage unit is traditionally weak against swarms of units. So the Seed is a candidate. However, I don't want to increase the number of Seeds to crazy levels - I feel like it will cause the enemy turn to take forever and just generally not be very fun. So if swarms are out as a concept, then I'm not sure what we can do to make an enemy super effective against the Hunters!

I'm open for suggestions on how we can tweak our existing enemy stable to be a bit more anti-Hunter! :D!

maybe if the lapses got close to a hunter (within their explosion radius) they would sense them and release their explosion thing that happens when they die out of shock and reveal the hunter and maybe knock them back, or maybe they would just always sense them (thematically because they live half in half out of time or in the veil or something like that) and intentionally reveal them with their blast so they could hit them properly with their forgetful powers.

and the lapses fit as a counter to hunter because that is where the hunter gets their cool armour from

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If anything was going to be the 'anti-hunter' I figure it would be the twitcher or cradle, one can(though rarely does) switch places and could drop them in the middle of a bunch of melee and one can birth new enemies right next to the hunter(though seeds are weak)

Giving different cadence different sneak detection level ranges would make things more interesting without being a giant FU to hunters and wouldn't affect the caber or alchy at all, wouldn't really do anything to hunters besides make them a bit more careful for that matter either

Giving Lapses a AOE attack sounds evil... I kinda like it

*lapse moves in between 4 heroes*

-600xp

noooooooooo

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I feel like the Hunter nerf is pretty good, but it might not be enough!

I was just talking to Chad about this the other day. I feel like one of the core problems is that there isn't an enemy type that is naturally strong vs. the Hunter. (or an enemy type that the Hunter is weak against) I'd rather not do a straight rock-paper-scissors type thing... I'm much more into softer, more emergent mechanics that make one unit weak or strong against another unit. For example the Rupture is naturally better vs. melee units because even in death he will injure them!

In a real-time game the single-target, high damage unit is traditionally weak against swarms of units. So the Seed is a candidate. However, I don't want to increase the number of Seeds to crazy levels - I feel like it will cause the enemy turn to take forever and just generally not be very fun. So if swarms are out as a concept, then I'm not sure what we can do to make an enemy super effective against the Hunters!

I'm open for suggestions on how we can tweak our existing enemy stable to be a bit more anti-Hunter! :D!

`

The biggest strength a late-game hunter has is his/her ability to kill Cadence from outside their sight range, with complete safety. Changing enemy AI to utilize and stay in cover to break LoS if being shot at from outside vision range would go a long way in reducing Hunter effectiveness while simultaneously buffing Alchemists. A nice pack of Cadence huddling behind a rock is a prime target for an alchemical bomb.

Having the AI in general be more communicative with each other, to move as a pack, would do a lot to increase the difficulty in a fair manner. Too many times my Hunter would pick off dude after dude while the Cadence just stood around and watched each other get shot.

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I feel like the Hunter nerf is pretty good, but it might not be enough!

I was just talking to Chad about this the other day. I feel like one of the core problems is that there isn't an enemy type that is naturally strong vs. the Hunter. (or an enemy type that the Hunter is weak against) I'd rather not do a straight rock-paper-scissors type thing... I'm much more into softer, more emergent mechanics that make one unit weak or strong against another unit. For example the Rupture is naturally better vs. melee units because even in death he will injure them!

In a real-time game the single-target, high damage unit is traditionally weak against swarms of units. So the Seed is a candidate. However, I don't want to increase the number of Seeds to crazy levels - I feel like it will cause the enemy turn to take forever and just generally not be very fun. So if swarms are out as a concept, then I'm not sure what we can do to make an enemy super effective against the Hunters!

I'm open for suggestions on how we can tweak our existing enemy stable to be a bit more anti-Hunter! :D!

I think one simple change that might help would be to cap all ranged attacks at a 95% hit chance or thereabouts. There were definitely points during the midgame, before the advanced units came to the scene with their higher evasion stats, where basically every single Hunter attack I was performing was a guaranteed 100% to hit. For a while I never felt like any of my Hunters were ever in danger because I could always predict with absolute certainty how their attack would play out, give or take a few HP worth of damage. But if there was a chance the shot might miss and draw the enemy towards me, I might've thought twice about taking that shot.

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I'm open for suggestions on how we can tweak our existing enemy stable to be a bit more anti-Hunter! :D!

How about a making one of the enemies a stealth/alert type? They wander around stealthily. When a hunter tries to sneak past one (or vice versa) they get detected. Then the guy does an alert and attracts all the cadence within a certain radius.

Another way to go about things would be to have an enemy that is hard to hit from a distance. There is one that is kind of transparent and attacks from range right? That one could do it (unless it's the aging cadence, in which case pick something else).

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There should be an enemy that can see stealthed units, and pop them out of stealth. Maybe the wrinkler since that's probably the least effective enemy unit. Make him very resistant to ranged while you're at it. The multiple target bow clears seeds pretty easily so I don't think massing enemies is the answer.
This could be partially fixed by having the Cadence move more aggressively. They seem to stay mostly stationary, only ever shuffling a square or two if they don't see any heroes, which means that it's generally pretty clear what can safely be stealthed to and what can't. An AI tweak to make them more actively search for combat would go a long way here. And on that note, it's a little weird that they don't seem to engage in any teamwork or communication. It seems pretty common for two units to rush you while a third one that's literally 1 square further away sits around with his thumb up his butt.

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After breeding a family of Caberjacks with both the Bear Strength and Fast traits, I no longer find Hunters to be the most powerful units... :-P

I think the traits have a LOT more to do with the units' relative power that we give them credit for. A few of the right traits will make ANY unit look crazy powerful.

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I agree on two points:

1) Cadence need to be a little more aggressive. They seem to hide too much until they're visible and if they were to wander closer to the heroes instead of laying ambushes, then I think that might also help caberjacks see some usefulness. It's especially noticeable in the final mission where the cadence wander into sight and then run away. For an erosive, destructive force, they don't seem to be in a rush to assault things. They are plenty aggressive in keep defense missions, but in a lot of others they seem content to wander in their little spawn area and don't tend to come after my heroes. Aggressiveness might keep hunters from stealthing too often.

2) I think lapses have potential to be great counters for hunters. Maybe Lapses (and only Lapses) could see and attack stealthed hunters? This would also balance the veil armor a bit and is easy to justify in the story (Lapses never forget!).

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2) I think lapses have potential to be great counters for hunters. Maybe Lapses (and only Lapses) could see and attack stealthed hunters? This would also balance the veil armor a bit and is easy to justify in the story (Lapses never forget!).

This sounds pretty good, only problem I can see is that once a hunter gets a decent relic they can one hit most things. So unless the lapses are hidden as well until they attack you can still hid and take them out before they attack.

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I feel like the Hunter nerf is pretty good, but it might not be enough!

I was just talking to Chad about this the other day. I feel like one of the core problems is that there isn't an enemy type that is naturally strong vs. the Hunter. (or an enemy type that the Hunter is weak against) I'd rather not do a straight rock-paper-scissors type thing... I'm much more into softer, more emergent mechanics that make one unit weak or strong against another unit. For example the Rupture is naturally better vs. melee units because even in death he will injure them!

In a real-time game the single-target, high damage unit is traditionally weak against swarms of units. So the Seed is a candidate. However, I don't want to increase the number of Seeds to crazy levels - I feel like it will cause the enemy turn to take forever and just generally not be very fun. So if swarms are out as a concept, then I'm not sure what we can do to make an enemy super effective against the Hunters!

I'm open for suggestions on how we can tweak our existing enemy stable to be a bit more anti-Hunter! :D!

My current feeling after watching a lot of Joey and my own 300 year playthrough is that right now it's not so much how strong they are but the point in their power tree they become really cool and useful. Hunters are almost immediately really versatile and useful, the other two classes take way longer to come into their own. I feel like that's the difference now, much more than difference in actual power. A late game Caberjack with that special cadence knockback weapon is a complete killing machine. But it takes a while to get there. I had level 6-7 Hunters that could destroy anything with a leveled up relic.

I agree with this. I think the power curve is shifted later for caberjacks relative to hunters such that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Alchemists I feel are still weaker than both but the jury is still out till I can actually play with them or watch someone who likes them try them out in lategame play postpatch.

I would think the anti-ranged enemy would be the twitcher/cradle since they can swap squishy hunters out of position, or spawn seeds right on top of them. In practice that doesn't seem to be the case.

I suppose a ranged enemy with long ranged attack that also has a minimum range? The problem there is you can just move hunters in close. Anything melee can dodge, ranged can dodge too by moving in close, and ranged can also avoid tons of stuff melee get destroyed by (see ruptures, lapse explosions) The imbalance between melee and ranged is a problem diablo 3 faced. Ranged heroes have a huge advantage in flexibility: they can kite and dodge damage while still dealing damage. This means melee needs huge numerical mechanical advantages to compensate, since they must be in the thick of it.

XCOM has the strangling enemies (Seekers) in EW who cloaked. They would decloak and disable any hero who was alone (usually your sniper--the hunter equivalent). So you at least needed another soldier nearby the sniper to bail him out. Maybe something like that? Or a cadence long ranged enough to fire back at hunters from 11+ range? Advanced Bulwarks?

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Bulwarks don't need a buff!

What if the "forgetful" Cadence could detect and attack hunters while stealthed - so the Lapses and the Twitchers? They seem like natural counters for hunters. I don't think they should "reveal" the hunters to the other cadence, but Twitchers being able to swap with stealthed hunters would be a great counter and encourage the hunters to hang back while the rest of the team takes care of the problem. As it is, caberjacks are pretty great against Twitchers so it'd be cool to let them be like "Don't worry. I got this."

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I'm open for suggestions on how we can tweak our existing enemy stable to be a bit more anti-Hunter! :D!

How about an enemy with the ability to throw back range attacks (arrows) to the attacker with a certain likelihood (33%, 50%, ?)

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I agree with the people who have said that the nerf has to do with stealth. Stealth is just too good, especially if you have all hunters in your group (and particularly after veil armor). In every other way, I think the hunter is balanced, but the game is kind of broken if you can have all five Heroes permanently in stealth until they choose to attack.

Maybe even something like a 2 turn maximum with a cool down period, so you can use it but not indefinitely

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Maybe I am doing something wrong... but after I am stealthed, then I attack, I am usually seen by all the other enemies in the area. You can't go stealth after you are spotted. It's not like you can be perma-stealthed unless you're just creeping around.

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Maybe I am doing something wrong... but after I am stealthed, then I attack, I am usually seen by all the other enemies in the area. You can't go stealth after you are spotted. It's not like you can be perma-stealthed unless you're just creeping around.

They are playing super cautiously and only attacking when they can kill all the visible enemies and then stealth again. It's a game of patience and positioning. This is exactly why the expansion for XCOM introduced stealth enemies that can pick on snipers and the special goop containers to encourage players to push through fast. Because players need to be encouraged to play aggressively when the stakes are kind of high.

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Maybe I am doing something wrong... but after I am stealthed, then I attack, I am usually seen by all the other enemies in the area. You can't go stealth after you are spotted. It's not like you can be perma-stealthed unless you're just creeping around.

They are playing super cautiously and only attacking when they can kill all the visible enemies and then stealth again. It's a game of patience and positioning. This is exactly why the expansion for XCOM introduced stealth enemies that can pick on snipers and the special goop containers to encourage players to push through fast. Because players need to be encouraged to play aggressively when the stakes are kind of high.

Exactly. I'm pointing it out as many have because it feels like a loophole exploit of the game which encourages extremely slow and careful tactics to maximize effectiveness. I don't know what's wrong with me, but I can't help but go for the path of least resistance when I'm playing a tactical game. I'd like for the loophole to be plugged, if nothing else to save me from myself :)

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