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Asirrelle

Do heroes age too quickly?

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I only had one keep and after the third encounter I realized that I was running out of heroes.

It seems that most characters die around 60 and that age approaches incredibly quickly. I estimate that most characters will take part in perhaps 3 battles before kicking the bucket (correct me if i'm wrong).

I'm still in the early game, but it will be interesting to see how any character will live long enough to see the end of their skill tree.

The rapid sprint to old age leaves me less attached to the hero as an individual, but perhaps more to the bloodline he/she's from?

I'm not sure yet. Any thoughts?

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I only had one keep and after the third encounter I realized that I was running out of heroes.

It seems that most characters die around 60 and that age approaches incredibly quickly. I estimate that most characters will take part in perhaps 3 battles before kicking the bucket (correct me if i'm wrong).

I'm still in the early game, but it will be interesting to see how any character will live long enough to see the end of their skill tree.

The rapid sprint to old age leaves me less attached to the hero as an individual, but perhaps more to the bloodline he/she's from?

I'm not sure yet. Any thoughts?

I think battles are supposed to come every 10 years or so, and they start fighting at 16 so I'd say they'd have 4-6 battles in them

BUT!

Children learn from their parents (and the Standard), so they'll start levelling up while in childhood, which means your 16 year old heroes in a few generations should already start the game with a bunch of skills, and get a chance to develop further in battle.

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Right, it sounds like I need to get a bit further into it before these mechanics start taking effect.

Thanks for the post!

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Even with KestrelPi's point about the mechanic of children starting at higher and higher levels depending on the levels of their parents and Standard I feel like heroes get involved in too few fights due to some combination of aging too quickly and fights occurring too rarely (I realize that these are just too sides of the same coin, the common element is the number of years between battles).

I feel like the way it's currently balanced it forces you to focus on only one or two bloodlines (since you can only bring 5 heroes per combat and combat is so infrequent) and level that handful of heroes ASAP (sometimes even gaming the battle so that they get the most kill shots and XP), get them breeding and use their higher level children to populate the Sagewrights guild and Standard while preserving at least one star to throw back into battle and start the cycle over again.

The point of my statement is that since combat is so rare, it is difficult to level more than a small handful of heroes meaning that offices like Standard and Sagewright are a waste to be populated by combat vets (since there are so few) because those few vets are needed to keep feeding the parent-child leveling cycle. It works but I just wish there were more frequent combats so I could spread my experience around a bit and have combat vets go into the Guild and Standard positions instead of just children.

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So I think there are two possibilities here, and it's not entirely clear to me which is going on:

Either it's working as intended, but the game isn't doing a great job of telling you what's important to focus on early on. Maybe it's just fine to have one or two keeps at the start and only build more once a couple of generations have rolled by. Maybe we shouldn't be worrying about sagewrights and standards until later. But it feels like maybe there's a 'winning' strategy to the order you do things, but it's not clear when your decision 20 years ago was awful, until another 100 years after that. Tricky to balance out.

Orrr, it could just be that there aren't enough heroes at the start. Because some are going to die of old age quite quickly, and it's going to be around 20 years from the start before the FIRST baby in the game becomes combat-ready, and you're likely to lose some people in battles, and you need some of those to found a keep - well, those numbers very quickly dwindle unless everything goes your way.

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And I'm wondering: If I build two keeps early on, and than focus on other stuff, won't I end with only two bloodlines? And speaking in real biological terms, my Coefficient of inbreeding after 2 generations would be through the roof, or am I missing something?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Karl_II_Vorfahren.jpg

Does not end well in real life ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain

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It definitely FEELS like it's working as intended, I do have success when I follow the strategy/pattern I mentioned, I just worry about, as you mention, there being a "winning" strategy. I don't think it's very strategic or fun if there is one optimal way of playing. Different circumstances should dictate what strategies are most effective at a given time. I don't want to feel like every game I have to 1) build A, 2) put top 2 people in A, 3) build B, 4) research C, etc... I feel like there is strategic variety in the research tree (what you research will depend on your strengths and weaknesses in troop composition as well as what enemies you start encountering) but not so much in the build tree and people placement decisions. Obviously this is all just spitballing at this point, haven't spent more than a few hours with the game yet.

The point of not enough heroes could also be an issue, although I do think that's alleviated by the option to research a batch of new heroes (I was sooo happy to find that this research project resulted in a bunch of newbies instead of just one).

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i think there should be a way to "dethrone" a hero family, that way you could fill up you keeps early, but later replace one or two with new blood, and not have to do something weird like kill all your heroes and match up infertile people to kill off a bloodline

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So I think there are two possibilities here, and it's not entirely clear to me which is going on:

Either it's working as intended, but the game isn't doing a great job of telling you what's important to focus on early on....

Orrr, it could just be that there aren't enough heroes at the start. Because some are going to die of old age quite quickly, and it's going to be around 20 years from the start before the FIRST baby in the game becomes combat-ready...

It looks like a combination of the two to me. I'm only about 25 years in, but I went Keep (free) > Keep > Guild > Keep > Crucible, and around the 20-25 year mark I'm getting REALLY dry on units despite no in-combat deaths. There's only so much I could do to get more than that! You're definitely right that the delay on getting Generation 2 running hurts. (I think I did have a youngling ~age 15 at the start of the game, but she and all her relatives suffered from infertility, heart disease, or both, so all of them received lifetime scholarships from the Sagewrights.)

My early impression is that (A) the difficulty of establishing bloodlines makes for an XCOM-like early difficulty hump, where you scrape and scrape to get on your feet then feel comparatively safe for the rest of the game, and (B) because of that, you're basically screwed if you spend early research time NOT building 2-3 keeps ASAP.

There is plenty of room for me to be wrong here, but it sort of feels like the game should just start with 1 or 2 Keeps built and filled by pre-generated bloodlines, with the first battle yielding an empty keep for the player to appoint a regent to. That would streamline the infrastructure element specifically by skipping over the process of "Better build a bunch of keeps," which is looking less like a strategic choice and more like an absolute necessity. That opens the early game up quite a bit and gives room to design the rest of the game to be much more evil.

One other question regarding the early game: has anyone LOST the first battle? Do you not get the keep, or does it just get corrupted immediately?

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There are some research possibilities that help you solve the Incest issue. (spawn new heroes)

but yes you are right 2 castles are just not enough. i recommend 3-4 atm . (that secures all three classes for you as well)

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I like the dethrone idea! Maybe only own kids are allowed as follower? Like in reality, so you cannot minimax it totally.

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Orrr, it could just be that there aren't enough heroes at the start. Because some are going to die of old age quite quickly, and it's going to be around 20 years from the start before the FIRST baby in the game becomes combat-ready...It looks like a combination of the two to me. I'm only about 25 years in, but I went Keep (free) > Keep > Guild > Keep > Crucible, and around the 20-25 year mark I'm getting REALLY dry on units. There's only so much I could do to get more than that! You're definitely right that the delay on getting Generation 2 running hurts. (I think I did have a youngling ~age 15 at the start of the game, but she and all her relatives suffered from infertility, heart disease, or both, so all of them received lifetime scholarships from the Sagewrights.)

I'm probably around the same amount of years in as you and I went Keep (free) > Guild > Crucible > Keep.

I was left with a roster of 3 Alchemists which I'm not sure if I had to field or not, but they all died near enough straight away. I hadn't lost any battles up to this point and only 3 people died in battle.

I automatically lost the next conflict as i had no more troops.

This could be because I didn't have enough breeders, but i've started just adopting babies now to fill up my ranks. I'm going to play more tonight, so it'll be interesting to see if i lose this campaign. If so, next time around i'll prioritize building keeps (like the xcom satellites).

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It is definitely starting to feel like baby-making strategies are going to be a predominant area of discussion and strategy which just tickles me pink :)

I will say though that in my first 50 or so years I did use the recruit heroes research at least twice and the baby adoption two or three times. I'm pretty sure those are intended to be a part of early game strategy to smooth out hiccups in hero flow due to the randomness of age and class distributions at the start of each game.

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This is a great discussion you guys! We definitely feel like you sort of HAVE to build a second Keep right away. I don't think anyone on the team would disagree with that. And that's kind of a bummer! We've discussed some alternatives to this, but there are several issues:

1) I want you to be the one to place the building. Region bonuses are interesting and there are several things to think about when you build!

2) I want you to be the one to choose who the Regent and Partner are.

We had one possible idea about having 2 Keeps when you start the game. One is already full and one is empty (the one that you fight in first). When you come back to strategy for the first time you would need to visit Keep 1 and be able to inspect the Regent and Partner that you didn't pick, then you would be instructed to go to Keep 2 (the one that you just saved) and retire a new Regent and Partner. We ended up not doing this because it breaks both 1 AND 2 on my list above! Kind of a bummer. :(

The one nice thing about this solution is that it also helps combat the "15 year gap problem" that you guys called out in this thread as well. Keep 1, the already-populated Keep, could have some amount of children in it at year 0, meaning you would have a hero come of age earlier than year 15. That would be pretty nice! Overall I still don't love this solution and I think

@Sebmono - I think you are catching on! :D! The Recruitment and Adoption features were buffed in order to allow you to use them to get your Bloodlines cranking! :D!

Also I don't think it's that bad right now. Even if you feel compelled to build Keep 2 immediately and you do that every time, I think that your second research choice is up for heavy debate - I personally want that Health Vial ASAP and I'm willing to delay additional infrastructure development for a few years in order to secure a safer tactical party! You can also make a debate for Keep 3, Crucible 1, or Guild 1. I think there are plenty of interesting directions to move in after you build Keep 2!

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Letting the player choose all bloodlines definitely seems more important in light of Keeps being locked to bloodlines, which I keep forgetting about.

What about differentiating the early game slightly based on whether you have Tutorial Mode on, like XCOM does? A simple toggle to reduce adviser VOs (aka "SHUT UP ABOUT THE GRENADES, DOCTOR VAHLEN") will be handy eventually, but you could also do some interesting variation akin to XCOM's starter mission. Off the cuff:

(1) Tutorial mode starts you with one empty Keep (as current), but rather than giving you an open-ended choice of research, specifically prompts you to build a second Keep because you're basically screwed if you don't. Non-Tutorial/Advanced mode leaves you to your own devices, as you likely understand the importance of early Keeps.

(2) Tutorial mode starts you with one empty Keep and one pre-populated Keep so that you don't have too many decisions when you're learning the game. Advanced mode starts you with 2 empty keeps because you know how this shebang works.

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i feel like building 2 keeps is the best start as the crucible and the guild isn't very powerful at the start and it also uses up heroes, plus you can make a keep for each hero type

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I've actually found the guild to be pretty effective (I tend to be a research oriented feller) fairly early on actually as long as you populate it with all intuition 2 people. In my first game it was actually my first build (before Keep 2) and I found it really helped with the hero flow because I could get the recruit heroes and baby adoption task completed quicker.

In retrospect Keep 2 should definitely be my priority, especially with the wise words of Brad informing that strategy! But I think I'm still going to go straight to guild after that. I'll see how my experiments turn out!

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Why not have the massive chalice also serve as a keep? Just give the player a keep in the same province the chalice is in.

That region is where we (the immortal ruler) "live" (if you can call it living, I mean, am I right or am I right. Or am I right.), man! We can't be clogging it up with eyesores like additional structures...

Smiles

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Well I only played one round now and I basically "died out" ...

There really should be more sex from the regents :P

Maybe some "hero acquiring" should be faster ... and probably everything is all right, but it "felt" like the heroes are aging more than time passes ... maybe the starting ages could be lower. I think I had an average of ~30 or so... half their lifes already lived!

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I really like the idea of a full keep to start with! And then strongly advise or force the player to build a second one were he or she wants to.

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I really like the idea of a full keep to start with! And then strongly advise or force the player to build a second one were he or she wants to.

i don't like it, i bet i will get a regent who is slow, asthmatic and shortsighted married to a dimwitted, arthritic and feeble person, and i would be stuck with those bad genes for the whole game, or maybe get an infertile couple who just takes up space for 30 years

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I'm onto year 118 and I feel like the game is starting to take shape more.

It's still a constant battle of raises the birth death ratio, but i feel like i'm almost to a good point now.

I had to adopt just under 10 babies, i've raised 4 keeps (3 of which are currently manned), i've got two sagewrites, and no-one in the crucible. I've lost 1 realm.

I think going on now should be a little easier, just gotta make sure the babies keep on coming.

I got two relics around the 100 year point, and have started to see some new enemies, which i won't spoil here, but I was starting to think that there was just 3 types, so i'm glad to be wrong :)

The leveling system makes a little more sense now that i've seen how the bloodline levels up. This puts me more on the side of the bloodline rather then the individual still, which could be good or bad.

I started getting attached to a character who's nickname was 'Babyface'. They were a good fighter and the nickname added in a connection to them. Sadly it wasn't long after that she died of old age at 49. Although this bummed me out a little she left behind a relic.

It would've been nice if that relic had more of an attachment to 'Babyface' some how.

I'll play more tomorrow and see if my views on this change more. Perhaps there are still more surprises I've yet to see.

Great game so far! Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't have play the 5+ hours so far if I wasn't enjoying it. :)

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I really like the idea of a full keep to start with! And then strongly advise or force the player to build a second one were he or she wants to.

i don't like it, i bet i will get a regent who is slow, asthmatic and shortsighted married to a dimwitted, arthritic and feeble person, and i would be stuck with those bad genes for the whole game, or maybe get an infertile couple who just takes up space for 30 years

That would be a problem, I agree! So maybe cheat a bit and give a bit better odds to get a decent couple? Doesn't need to be superhuman, but your example wouldn't help at all!

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so brad rushes for health vial i just lost my first region (around 170 years in) i just cranked three keeps out ASAP then got the steady hander. Which is the best item imho. I never researched the health vial.

i havent lost one single guy in the last 100 years (after some starting hiccups) and at least my hunter bloodline is Around level 8 after reaching age 15. I have 2 Relics in that family (which are now both level 10) which makes enemies a breeze.

For some reason the chalice is popping me out surrounded by enemies all the time (i dont really mind) but is that normal? I had no normal "setups" for a while now.

Since i got the steady hander i researched both the Caber and Alchemist Armor (both are now advanced) the lapse Armor for the Hunter (whihc is laughable strong) and the Sponge stone.

Now im kinda at my wits end. there is nothing to research by now (i build two more keeps to fill up my inner regions and have more marriage candidates) and upgraded the recruitment tech. The Bone Crossbow was a let down as well since the relics are just devastating (65% crit on level 10). On that matter a question: are there specific weapon relics? ---> can i get a Bone or Blunderbow relic? If so it may be worth to keep using them.

Caber and Alchemist families are around lvl 6-7 by now each has one relatively high level relic. I just use the Alchs because i want to play with the game, Hunters are too strong but cabers are still usable if things get downhill in a battle. Since the Advanced armor + Sopnge stone + Rebound makes them nearly invulnerable (except to the side effects but whatever.) Seeds keep Stunnging themselves on my cabers while dealing no dmg, its fun :D

I Probably lost a region due to me trying to get good rewards (i had 3 two-strike regions one time) need to stop that now or i will losses anyway)

Wish me luck :D

Im still having a lot of fun though, the game is great.

(shwoing of some screenies) (only three allowed though

2014-10-22_00003.jpg

2014-10-22_00004.jpg

2014-10-22_00006.jpg

2014-10-22_00003.jpg.1ce2d657e5a22da0954

2014-10-22_00004.jpg.b3551947642a9df0d7a

2014-10-22_00006.jpg.ad59aba4a6eb537d256

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Hah! You totally lost the same area i did :P

I had it a couple of times where i'd start surrounded by enemies and once where my characters were split up with enemies mixed in the middle of the group :/

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Put in a couple hours, so I can't say I'm a genius of the game or anything yet, BUT long story short I went to fill my roster about five battles in and realised "hey wait a second I only have... two heroes to pick from to fill this fifth slot". It just sorta snuck up on me. I had about ten to choose from for the previous battle, but somewhere between my first generation starting to pass on of old age and the establishment of new buildings before then I lost a lot of people quite suddenly.

I don't doubt for a moment that managing birth/death rates is meant to be a huge deal, and I'm glad it is! I'd just like to have easily at hand the ability to monitor my "active headcount", so to speak. Whether on the Heroes screen or even just on the nation overview (where time is passing quickly), just have somewhere we can look to get a quick look at how many people we have to spare - it can change quite quickly if a series of deaths from old age come up, and given that most ways to increase it require time investment it's helpful to be able to see in advance that our headcount is already running low before I decide I can spare this guy for a ten year journey.

Ideally for me it'd just be a number display of 'of age' heroes, with the ability to hover over it to get a little dropdown showing numbers by overall age group (and here including children not yet ready for battle).

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That sound like a really good idea! It would be great if on the map somewhere, maybe at the top by the timeline, you had a numerical display of active/living heroes :D

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yeah i agree a simple counter of battle ready heroes on the main map would be helpful

I'd like to see that sorted into main class, too. Or a grid like this:

MCdiag.PNG

Because this conveys a lot of info in a small space. It tells me I'm good for Caberjacks for the next couple of generations, but my Hunters are going to die out soon and that I'm super low on Alchemists.

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