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ThunderPeel

Opening sequence confusion

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The opening sequence was utterly baffling.

I assumed it was the man and his wife pouring something into the pond that were talking. Then it appeared it was the Chalice talking. Ok, that's fine. But who was the Chalice talking to? I assume it was the crowd standing and staring at it, but then it kept referring to "you", so then I assumed that it was talking to the player... but what is the player, and why can I hover over a pond, and why is everything looking at the Chalice if the Chalice isn't actually talking to them?

In short: Baffling.

Loving the rest of it, though! :)

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I hear you man. the execution is, a little hard to follow. The Intro sequence feels like it needs a little tweaking to better get across the setup. After multiple playthroughs I'm still not a hundred percent on sure where I stand in the grand scheme of things. I'm basically a King who can live for centuries?

But I'm enjoying the rest of the game so far pretty much, if they address it, nice, if not, I'm not going to mark them down for it. As long as the combats fun!

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I agree - there is a lot of ambiguity in the intro. This would probably be OK if the Chalice didn't wait until near the end of the intro before it started to make any sense.

After I saw the Massive Chalice, I came to the conclusion that there were two people standing behind the chalice talking, that the yellow lights were there to make it obvious that there were two different people speaking, and that I was also probably standing behind the chalice waiting to be introduced to the crowd or something.

Then I believe the Chalice mentioned the fact that it was a giant talking chalice, and I had to re-frame my understanding of the entire intro and start watching it again.

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Oh yeah, I had that confusion as well. I'd forgotten. I still don't fully understand what's going on -- although it is a massive chalice talking. I get that much, I guess!

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From what I gather, you as somehow spiritually bound by the Chalice so as long as the Chalice survives you cannot die.

The heroes you control are "attuned" to the Chalice so they can fight the cadence without dying instantly but they still suffer the effects of aging/death.

The rest of the populace is just normal and die instantly if the cadence touches them.

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Yeah, I only followed the intro because I've been following the teamstreams/updates. The crowd in front of the chalice is very bizarre. They seem to be listening to the chalice's announcement, but the writing seems more like the advisers are talking to you in a private setting. I think the crowd might be there just for scale? I don't know, it didn't really work for me.

The exposition at the beginning is all over the place. It seems very aware of the fact that it's confusing, with most of the discussion being about how there's no time to explain (horns blaring). The male chalice's says a bunch of titles for the immortal ruler, but the fact that the "immortal ruler" is you isn't all that well communicated, especially because the heroes then have to jump into battle and the chalice starts talking to them saying "the hero will be with you shortly" and even though you're presumably standing right there, it's not like the chalice's body language tells you that it was talking to the people standing on it and not you for a brief moment.

It seems like an intro that wants to be short and just get you into the game, but it's not really that short. I do like the characters and I even the think the writing itself is clever when you see it written out and you know what the story is, and that the talking chalice is a talking chalice with two personalities living in the negative space around it, and that you're an immortal ruler who is somehow related to the bloodlines, and also that heroic bloodlines are a thing, and there's a war going on with the cadence, which are demons (but don't call them demons) embodying various aspects of the abstract concept of the ravages of time. I don't want to be too hard on the opening, because I'm hoping that improvements to the art/animation before release will spruce it up a bit, but I agree that it needs work.

I was also wondering if the talking chalice might read better if it was animated by lights/shadows around the "mouth" areas of the chalice's faces instead of the god rays that are currently used. The rays are good for showing that something is talking, but they seem to come from the foreheads of the figures and they make it hard for me to see the face outlines as faces. It doesn't help that the figures on the chalice are subtle to begin with (I have trouble seeing the male face at all).

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ooh, from the Rim of the Chalice. That's a good Idea. Nice. That could convey the Chalice is the actual one talking a lot better.

Noted.

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ooh, from the Rim of the Chalice. That's a good Idea. Nice. That could convey the Chalice is the actual one talking a lot better.

To clarify, I didn't mean the rim of the chalice. I meant the mouth of the "ground face" of the figure-ground chalice. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, the chalice is meant to be a type of Rubin vase. The two advisers are represented as silhouettes cutting in to the chalice. It is, as I said, pretty subtle. Oddly, despite the very unusual shape of the chalice, the adviser faces are a lot less discernible as faces than the ones seen in a typical symmetrical vase.

Edit: another silly idea to make the advisers stand out: make them dust clouds (or rather, create clouds of particles that highlight features of their faces in the negative space of the chalice, then get some volumetric lighting going with the god rays).

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Good job explaining things clearly and coming up with some solutions. It's weird for a DF game to have such muddled storytelling, but I guess we're in early beta!

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I haven't played in a while, but I just got an update that we're getting close to the end... Did they fix this aspect yet? Thanks.

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I haven't played in a while, but I just got an update that we're getting close to the end... Did they fix this aspect yet? Thanks.
I guess you will see in the new patch. ;-)

Smiles

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ooh, from the Rim of the Chalice. That's a good Idea. Nice. That could convey the Chalice is the actual one talking a lot better.

To clarify, I didn't mean the rim of the chalice. I meant the mouth of the "ground face" of the figure-ground chalice. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, the chalice is meant to be a type of Rubin vase. The two advisers are represented as silhouettes cutting in to the chalice. It is, as I said, pretty subtle. Oddly, despite the very unusual shape of the chalice, the adviser faces are a lot less discernible as faces than the ones seen in a typical symmetrical vase.

Edit: another silly idea to make the advisers stand out: make them dust clouds (or rather, create clouds of particles that highlight features of their faces in the negative space of the chalice, then get some volumetric lighting going with the god rays).

*ahem*

DO IT

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I haven't played in a while, but I just got an update that we're getting close to the end... Did they fix this aspect yet? Thanks.
I guess you will see in the new patch. ;-)

Smiles

I just played the latest version... It seems better than I remember, but maybe that's because watching it after you've played the game means it makes more sense. The first time I was utterly confused.

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I just played the latest version... It seems better than I remember, but maybe that's because watching it after you've played the game means it makes more sense. The first time I was utterly confused.

I hope you were confused, as in "Confused like someone that was just created from nothing to rule a Kingdom at war with monsters, and there is a battle now, so fly over there NOW"

Makes sense to me!

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I hope you were confused, as in "Confused like someone that was just created from nothing to rule a Kingdom at war with monsters, and there is a battle now, so fly over there NOW"

Makes sense to me!

Wait? I was just created? I didn't get that bit.

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Yeah, somehow the chalice created you, the immortal ruler (I think), from the bloodlines of the people somehow. I don't know what that has to do with pouring water in the pond you hover over but you were created just then.

It all sounds cool but is quite hard to follow.

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I don't remember have that much confusing with the introduction, but as already quoted, when you have seen it multiple time and moreover if you have seen the end, perhaps it changes the vision.

For me it's been quickly clear that the Chalice is speaking directly to the player, and there's no Avatar unlike in a game like Ultima 7. Yeah there's some joke of the chalice voices about the non full clarity of your situation in the game but I don't remember to had troubles with the whole.

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I always find it amusing that the entire room is awaiting your awakening...and not a single person is looking at you. I know it's a talking Chalice and all, but HELLO immortal ruler come to save the world...over here! Hello? Anybody? :D

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So close to release, and nothing has been done about the confusing opening sequence. I wonder if they'll have time to tackle it? Sigh.

(See my first post, above, for an explanation of how it looks to a new player.)

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Good stuff! I know it makes sense once you've played it (kind of), but I feel new players will be as confused as I was. That would be a shame.

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I hope you were confused, as in "Confused like someone that was just created from nothing to rule a Kingdom at war with monsters, and there is a battle now, so fly over there NOW"

Makes sense to me!

Wait? I was just created? I didn't get that bit.

I think I just wasn't as confused as you by the intro, and I think some of these things were actually quite well explained:

I thought that it was reasonably clear that I was the one being talked to, given that they are talking amongst themselves until you look up, at the chalice then they say 'good morning', and then refer to you by various names.

I also thought it was clear that you were created. I think the dialogue goes:

"But they will listen to you because you're of their blood."

"Forged from the blooodlines of the great houses!"

Or something along those lines.

Then later on they talk about how the ritual used to "create you" also "bound you to us"

I guess a few things in it could be clearer, but I was never in any doubt about who was being spoken to or what my role in it was. I was actually quite impressed by how much info they managed to get into such a brief scene. It tells you:

You've just woken up, perhaps after some sort of ceremony

You're being talked to by a big chalice

The chalice has created you because of some kind of need, as a leader of sorts

That you will command heroes who use the chalice to reach their destination

That you will remain close to the chalice and command from your mind's eye.

That they'll fill in more of the specifics later, and for now just to focus on winning a battle.

Are a lot of people finding this overly confusing?

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I think I just wasn't as confused as you by the intro, and I think some of these things were actually quite well explained:

I thought that it was reasonably clear that I was the one being talked to, given that they are talking amongst themselves until you look up, at the chalice then they say 'good morning', and then refer to you by various names.

I also thought it was clear that you were created. I think the dialogue goes:

"But they will listen to you because you're of their blood."

"Forged from the blooodlines of the great houses!"

Or something along those lines.

Then later on they talk about how the ritual used to "create you" also "bound you to us"

I guess a few things in it could be clearer, but I was never in any doubt about who was being spoken to or what my role in it was. I was actually quite impressed by how much info they managed to get into such a brief scene. It tells you:

You've just woken up, perhaps after some sort of ceremony

You're being talked to by a big chalice

The chalice has created you because of some kind of need, as a leader of sorts

That you will command heroes who use the chalice to reach their destination

That you will remain close to the chalice and command from your mind's eye.

That they'll fill in more of the specifics later, and for now just to focus on winning a battle.

Are a lot of people finding this overly confusing?

I get it now, as you do. But when I first played it, it was incredibly confusing -- which kind of defeats the point of an introduction sequence.

It's interesting to me that you knew it was a chalice talking, when you hadn't even seen the chalice when you first hear them. How did you know that?

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It's interesting to me that you knew it was a chalice talking, when you hadn't even seen the chalice when you first hear them. How did you know that?

I didn't know it, until I looked up, and then I knew (because of the light from the chalice, and then later the them describing themselves as a 'giant talking chalice')

In my response I was more talking about they fact that you seemed to have missed some things in the intro which are actually explicitly explained, like the fact that you are created. They imply it a couple of times and then outright say it once, so I guess I'm puzzled by how this was missed.

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Huh. I think you need to re-read the original post. I never said I didn't understand the Chalice was talking, or that the chalice was talking to me (once the camera panned up), either. My point is that it's confusing on first viewing, for all the reasons I lay out.

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Huh. I think you need to re-read the original post. I never said I didn't understand the Chalice was talking, or that the chalice was talking to me (once the camera panned up), either. My point is that it's confusing on first viewing, for all the reasons I lay out.
I don't think I said that?

I was referring to this bit:

I hope you were confused, as in "Confused like someone that was just created from nothing to rule a Kingdom at war with monsters, and there is a battle now, so fly over there NOW"

Makes sense to me!

Wait? I was just created? I didn't get that bit.

Which seemed particularly well-explained in the intro, to me.

As for the very first part of the intro, I think it is supposed to deliberately be disorienting. It works for me. The main bit of confusion was cleared up once I looked up and saw the chalice, and then after the horns of battle sound it's clear that I'm some sort of military leader and there's no time to explain right now and ... I feel like that's all I need to know, at that point.

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Whew! Glad I wasn't the only one who thought the intro was a bit muddled. I addressed it in one of my posts on my thoughts on the game. A big part of the confusion for me comes from the first person point of view. Are we hovering over the stream, or sitting in a throne at the end of it? I think if we saw our feet and the bottom of the throne as we're waking up it would create a more clear sense of "space" and first person point of view.

Secondly, the dialogue is a little weird. The Chalice is arguing amongst themselves abotu how it's taking too long, then you fully wake up and they jump directly into the whole greeting and spiel without any sort of transitory "Ah, they're awake!" or something like that. I'm sure it's difficult because they have to avoid any gender specific pronouns....but I'm sure there's a way to tidy it up more.

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Whew! Glad I wasn't the only one who thought the intro was a bit muddled. I addressed it in one of my posts on my thoughts on the game. A big part of the confusion for me comes from the first person point of view. Are we hovering over the stream, or sitting in a throne at the end of it? I think if we saw our feet and the bottom of the throne as we're waking up it would create a more clear sense of "space" and first person point of view.

Secondly, the dialogue is a little weird. The Chalice is arguing amongst themselves abotu how it's taking too long, then you fully wake up and they jump directly into the whole greeting and spiel without any sort of transitory "Ah, they're awake!" or something like that. I'm sure it's difficult because they have to avoid any gender specific pronouns....but I'm sure there's a way to tidy it up more.

1.0 is around the corner. Will everyone be as utterly confused as I was? It seems by just changing the opening image to an empty throne room is might make more sense. It's the crowd (and the man and woman pouring things into the stream) that really confuse a first time viewer... and not confuse in a good way.

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Hurrah! Finally started playing 1.0 -- they fixed this, and a lot of other stuff that bugged me as well.

Really enjoying it so far!

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