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Doberfrann

Not enough melee!

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I hear people keep saying the Hunters are OP, but I think the problem is that 90% of Cadence is range and there is not enough melee distribution.

Beside seeds which are the weakest Cadence the only other melee attacks are from Wrinklers.

Caberjacks are that kind of class that should take some heat, tanking some reselient enemies. However, tanking Wrinklers are not a good strategy because they age you. Seeds don't deal too much damage so is not an issue.

Bulwarks shell up so you need to deal a lot of damage(Hunters) or stun them(Cabers), but they are range units.

Lapses, range units.

Cradles, AoE damage/range.

the Twitchers, which can swap places.

...and Ruptures, need to be taken down before they get to you, therefore you deal with range attack.

Also the Cadence can cover a lot of ground.

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That's what I think. It's much easier to just snipe all the enemys than to do melee and get damaged a lot.

This is something that has to be fixed in the final game.

The "Wood-Punch-Dude" (I forgot the name) could maybe store some energy. You could hide him, power him some rounds up and than one-hit the shit out of the big-bad-dudes.

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The list is missing one melee guy, I forget the name of it at the moment. But it can switch places with your heroes, is blue, and has a giant club arm.

Anyway, even with those added, I still think you have a very good point. Melee is indeed discouraged in this game.

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Yeah hunters can be really powerful especially with relics 1 shotting almost everything.

Though it is really nice having a caber with 50-60 health and charge. Charge has very big range and the knockbacks let you do a lot of damage to multiple enemies at the same time. And also crowd controlling a lot of mobs

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How would you personaly fix it?

I think there are two ways to go about it. You can either have caberjacks stay the same mobility/damage wise, but care less about the effects of the pawns (lower damage/other effects) so that they don't mind wading in for a turn to get in and wreck faces. Or you can keep them as they are resistance wise and increase their mobility so they can get in and wreck faces. I would probably go the latter and I think just a tad more mobility (and maybe a little less on hunters) would make them very usable.

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The pawn that stands out the most as an enemy that melee attackers should be strong against is the Bulwark. Later on, the Twitchers are also clearly meant to favor melee types, but by the time they appear hunters will likely be dominating through house experience and relics.

The reason I say Bulwarks should be weak to melee is that when they're introduced in the VO, they're described as a powerful ranged attacker that doesn't like to fight up close. I've found that Bulwarks really don't mind fighting up close and in fact probably ought to prefer it since it makes their shots more likely to connect, they're extremely tough to beat with melee damage (as only one solid blow can be landed per turn), and they have better odds of lining up multiple heroes in shots when those heroes are in short-range positions.

I do like having Caberjacks around when facing Bulwarks as their stun capabilities are useful in preventing the Bulwarks from dealing too much damage while they're being brought down, but the fact remains that low-level hunters can one-hit kill Bulwarks while not triggering their armor at all on a complete failure, while Caberjacks of the same level depend on teamwork, rationing of stunning, and luck in not getting glancing blows which would trigger the boneshell.

Alchemists can only really contribute to bringing down Bulwarks if there are convenient line-of-sight blockers to protect them while they hurl potions over top and they are able to track the position of the enemy without line of sight (either because of help from another hero or by guessing their location). The number of potions available is also small and their damage is limited.

All in all, I think Bulwarks would make sense as "glass cannons" that deal ludicrous damage from a distance and have special protection from the super high damage of hunters, but crumble fairly easily if Caberjacks or Alchemists get within range. It would also make more sense to me if the boneshell armor reacted between the first and second shots from a hunter. The fact that hunters can get away with their slow followup shot but melee attackers gathered around the Bulwark can't get in simultaneous attacks quickly enough to thwart the armor just doesn't sit right with me.

As an alternative idea, it could be interesting if the Bulwark armor didn't activate until the end of a player turn, so you could get in a number of attacks, but it would then stay activated for a number of turns (the health of the Bulwark would need to be increased to compensate). Taking down the Bulwark would then require a coordinated use of attackers where the current mechanic encourages the player to attack with the single most damaging hero. If the Bulwark or its advanced variant could survive the initial round of assaults, players would then need to work out how to get in range, deal maximum in one turn, and retreat.

The Bulwark was designed to reduce the effect of "wailing on enemies until they're dead" but in its current implementation they do still encourage wailing on them until they die, you just need to do it quickly and with a single hero. However, the Ruptures already serve the purpose of having an enemy that you can't simply pile on with melee attackers because they damage all of those near them, whether they're killed directly or kill themselves.

TL;DR: Bulwarks.

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You could make them have a glass-back which means that a hunter can't strike back because the bulwark is facing him. But a caberjack or alchimist could sneak from the back on it and destroy him. That would also mean that the hunter has to hide well, so that he doesnt get killed by the bulwark.

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you could fix the caberjacks range problem by swapping prime target with charge, so that every caberjack can charge from a distance into battle.

i agree though most enemies are either ranged themselves or better tackled at range (the winkler and the rupture) and that big teleporter guy keeps moving so ranged is also better, to be honest they really need to add a mid level brawler (20-30 health that mainly does melee attacks) , but it seems a bit late now, but maybe an extra tough blob worm guy (whatever they are called) would be a good addition

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you could fix the caberjacks range problem by swapping prime target with charge, so that every caberjack can charge from a distance into battle.

i agree though most enemies are either ranged themselves or better tackled at range (the winkler and the rupture) and that big teleporter guy keeps moving so ranged is also better, to be honest they really need to add a mid level brawler (20-30 health that mainly does melee attacks) , but it seems a bit late now, but maybe an extra tough blob worm guy (whatever they are called) would be a good addition

I'm not sure that replacing prime target with charge would fix the caberjack. I agree that prime target isn't a great early ability for caberjack, but I would not feel safe using charge for the caberjack without seeing the whole area I'd be rushing into. Otherwise it would be very risky as I wouldn't kill my opponent and could end up surronded. My opponent would be stunned, but alive for next turn which would be my next action.

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you could fix the caberjacks range problem by swapping prime target with charge, so that every caberjack can charge from a distance into battle.

i agree though most enemies are either ranged themselves or better tackled at range (the winkler and the rupture) and that big teleporter guy keeps moving so ranged is also better, to be honest they really need to add a mid level brawler (20-30 health that mainly does melee attacks) , but it seems a bit late now, but maybe an extra tough blob worm guy (whatever they are called) would be a good addition

I'm not sure that replacing prime target with charge would fix the caberjack. I agree that prime target isn't a great early ability for caberjack, but I would not feel safe using charge for the caberjack without seeing the whole area I'd be rushing into. Otherwise it would be very risky as I wouldn't kill my opponent and could end up surronded. My opponent would be stunned, but alive for next turn which would be my next action.

you can use charge just to move fast (without a target enemy at the end), so once you have scouted out an area you can catch up with your scouts fast, and also, when walking up to enemies or them walking up to you the hunter and the alchemist can attack as they get close but a caberjack has to get all the way there, but with charge he can get there fast.

obviously charging into the unknown would be dangerous, but that would rarely be how it was used, especially early in the game

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Ah that explains my confusion. My playstyle is generally pretty slow. Either I have a lot of hunters who can wreck everything without support or I sit them there in stealth until my other units are in range (this is usually only when I am specifically training those champs). I don't think that having charge earlier to close the distance would help me much, but honestly I'd prefer most other things to prime target.

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Also on the subject of melee: I was surprised and disappointed to learn that a glancing blow from a Wrinkler still ages you 5 years. Come on man, why does everything suck for Caberjacks? q_q

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I never really used Caberjacks :(

I agree with the fact that melee/range is not balanced.

Hopefully once Hybrids make it in, the greater variety of classes (e.g. Caberjack Alchemists, etc) can help make things more interesting. But Pure Classes should still be interesting as standalones too.

Smiles

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I agree that i never use caberjacks that much, and it definitely does feel like a bit of a projectile battle most of the time.

I had a battle recently (around the 200 year mark, so most enemies are advanced now) that had a lot of lapses, bulwarks and ruptures. I didn't want to get close to any of these! Moving in for a melee attack would just be suicide for my troops, as a lot of the enemy seemed to of snuggled up onto one side of the map. So I kept my distance.

My squad consisted of 3 hunters, an alchemist and a caberjack. The Caberjack stayed at the back and the hunters, at a distance or with a ridge between them sniped the enemy.

If it was a Laspe all three would aim on taking it out as it could fire back. The Ruptures seemed to get confused with the ridge and so just meandered back and forth, and so I gradually whittled them down one by one for fear of close combat blowback.

I eventually got to a point where I knew where a large group were hanging out and If i got too close they'd all turn and blast my heroes. So I lined up all of my squad on the edge of where they were and kept hitting end turn until one enemy broke away from the pack and then took them down. Rinse and repeat.

Perhaps there's a way I can kit out my melee troops so i'm not so afraid of projectiles. I'll have to explore my options some more :\

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