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Acheron

Is there any way to buff same-sex hero partners?

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I don't know if I'd suggest the following as the solution, but adoption could be an automated process, just like birthing babies.

e.g. once you pair up pair up heroes of opposite genders, baby making more or less starts (caveats with certain fertility traits, age, etc). Adoption simply could be automated the same way when you pair same-sex heroes together (with or without controls to say no more than 'x' automated adoptions in a given time period). Their 'babies' would have randomly generated genes, but the personality traits would be influenced by the same-sex couple.

Smiles

This solves a lot of problems but kind of obviates the actual adopt baby chalice power, because why do you not need to have it actively running for same sex heroes? And we want the adopt baby power to patch hetero couples when things go wrong. The other thing is that the ease of constant adoption creates a dominant strategy to pair all bad genes guys/gals with decent personalities together, which is both odd (since it's strange to find a workaround to include them in the game while simultaneously doing even more to incentivize people to dump bad genes heroes into them).

As a side note, in my current game I'm using both same sex couples and adoption frequently. I don't need much research, having only hunters, so lots of it is dedicated to basically creating constant adoption in the background. I have 3 keeps, 1 sagewrights guild, and 5 crucibles, so as long as two of my keeps have hetero couples I can afford to have another same-sex keep basically running on adoptions (boy, girl, boy, girl...) I'm at year 150, I have plenty of high-level hunters (15 year olds are coming out at level 8 now, newborns will probably be level 9-10 given some recent crucible upgrades), and the control of timing I have with adoption is nice for calibration. So mid to late game, this might not be as much of a problem as we thought. Of course, that is all subject to change with possible crucible/guild nerfs.

EDIT: Sorry for the duplicative post, didn't see KestrelPi's response. I started replying awhile ago and then got caught up in something else.

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Of course, that is all subject to change with possible crucible/guild nerfs.

Right, I think it actually makes sense to see the patches for the various systems that impact heroes before jumping directly into trying to patch adoption, at least in the next patch or two.

Smiles

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I don't know if I'd suggest the following as the solution, but adoption could be an automated process, just like birthing babies.

e.g. once you pair up pair up heroes of opposite genders, baby making more or less starts (caveats with certain fertility traits, age, etc). Adoption simply could be automated the same way when you pair same-sex heroes together (with or without controls to say no more than 'x' automated adoptions in a given time period). Their 'babies' would have randomly generated genes, but the personality traits would be influenced by the same-sex couple.

Smiles

It could be, sure. That would fix one problem (the one we're talking about) but it would also create the problem that adoption currently fixes - which is that it works as a sort of safety net for if you want to continue a bloodline and have no other way.

I kind of like the adoption system feeling distinctly, uh, distinct from birth, because it draws attention to the differences, but I just think it's not balanced right now to be a strategic option so much as a 'we really need to do this' option.

Eh. I think the most we'll get are a few tweaks probably for the system.

Smiles

It might be that a few tweaks are all that's needed to tip the balance from 'Adoption is an occasional necessary evil' to 'Adoption is a secondary side-strategy'

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As a side note, in my current game I'm using both same sex couples and adoption frequently. I don't need much research, having only hunters, so lots of it is dedicated to basically creating constant adoption in the background. I have 3 keeps, 1 sagewrights guild, and 5 crucibles, so as long as two of my keeps have hetero couples I can afford to have another same-sex keep basically running on adoptions (boy, girl, boy, girl...) I'm at year 150, I have plenty of high-level hunters (15 year olds are coming out at level 8 now, newborns will probably be level 9-10 given some recent crucible upgrades), and the control of timing I have with adoption is nice for calibration. So mid to late game, this might not be as much of a problem as we thought. Of course, that is all subject to change with possible crucible/guild nerfs.

EDIT: Sorry for the duplicative post, didn't see KestrelPi's response. I started replying awhile ago and then got caught up in something else.

It would be interesting to see that working. I always found that I was in such need of babies all the time, that having a keep rely solely on adoption even for a short period of time would be a huge risk with little reward, especially because I also felt like I was constantly behind on research.

It was only my first game, mind, but still, I was actively seeking opportunities to do this, but never really felt like it would be the right decision. Even if I felt like it would be a good decision 2 or 3 times in 300 years of play, I think that would tip it from where it is now to something that is at least encouraged as a form of strategic experimentation.

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It would be interesting to see that working. I always found that I was in such need of babies all the time, that having a keep rely solely on adoption even for a short period of time would be a huge risk with little reward, especially because I also felt like I was constantly behind on research.

Keep in mind I'm "gaming the system" right now. I don't need much research with an all-hunter group, only veil armor, steady hand, and no weapons because I just farm for relics, and 2 of my 3 keeps are the same bloodline (with the third basically existing to plug in partners, cus incest) so it's very easy to share.

It all depends on your strategy, but adoption is a viable strategy later in the game if you go for the fewer keeps, more crucibles approach. I need 19 heroes to stay fully staffed (5 fighters, 5 standards, 3 regents, 3 partners, 3 sagewrights). This basically means I need 6 babies every 15 years or so to replace the old people, or 2 per keep. Once the crucible machine is up and running, each 15-year generation gains 1-2 levels over the last even without fighting (I think right now each trainee gets slightly over 11k over fifteen years from my five standards). Adoption helps me make sure I'm getting the numbers I need, plus it lets me be more selective with traits because I can focus the perfect genes on 2 keeps and have a "dumping ground" keep where I predominantly adopt and hope to get at least 1-2 good parents by sheer force of numbers.

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What if you made happy marriages an XP bonus... and that way you would care about good matches because they would result in happier marriages.

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What if you made happy marriages an XP bonus... and that way you would care about good matches because they would result in happier marriages.

Yeah, we've definitely talked about that sort of thing. I'm not sure about framing it in that way, but I can imagine there being a sort of 'friendship bond' status that could exist between two people which would improve their XP if they retire to a keep together

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Hmm. For a game about "bloodlines" the idea of adoption doesn't seem to work for me, plus it complicates things unnecessary. This is a feudalistic game world, and throughout history monarchs have married for reasons of power, not love, and it seems to me to be the case with Massive Chalice, too.

That said, if there does need to be a way to include a same sex bloodline, then not get the magical powers of the Chalice involved? Why doesn't the Chalice generate ALL babies based on the two genetic traits of the selected monarchs? This could be the same for same sex and opposite sex pairings -- the children produced aren't "normal" humans after all, they're humans with additional abilities (right?). So why not just get magic involved?

(Sorry if this has been covered before.)

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Hmm. For a game about "bloodlines" the idea of adoption doesn't seem to work for me, plus it complicates things unnecessary. This is a feudalistic game world, and throughout history monarchs have married for reasons of power, not love, and it seems to me to be the case with Massive Chalice, too.

That said, if there does need to be a way to include a same sex bloodline, then not get the magical powers of the Chalice involved? Why doesn't the Chalice generate ALL babies based on the two genetic traits of the selected monarchs? This could be the same for same sex and opposite sex pairings -- the children produced aren't "normal" humans after all, they're humans with additional abilities (right?). So why not just get magic involved?

(Sorry if this has been covered before.)

For me it's always been about 'how can this make the game more interesting.' And I think adoption does make the game more interesting, in a lot of ways. Firstly it provides a way of deliberately bringing new traits into the bloodline (though it's a gamble), while keeping personality traits. The only other way is the low chance of 'mutation'. Secondly it brings in a way to increase the total number of potential partners when considering how to continue a bloodline. Finally, and perhaps least-interestingly, it's a way of generating an 'emergency baby' for when you need one of a certain bloodline.

None of these things seem to be unnecessarily complicated, rather they all have the potential to make the long-term strategy of the game more nuanced and interesting. The problem seems to be that right now there are relatively few cases where adoption is an interesting strategic choice, and so a lot of that good stuff I just mentioned gets eclipsed.

I do agree that we don't need to be overly-precious about the 'realism' of the story, as long as it doesn't come across as incredibly hamfisted. But I don't have a problem with adoption as a concept in general. This world is doing its own thing, and I don't get the sense that adoption is weakening the fiction. It's just not handled all that great right now.

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What if you made happy marriages an XP bonus... and that way you would care about good matches because they would result in happier marriages.

Yeah, we've definitely talked about that sort of thing. I'm not sure about framing it in that way, but I can imagine there being a sort of 'friendship bond' status that could exist between two people which would improve their XP if they retire to a keep together

I was just thinking off tossing in a few more variables related to "compatibility" relating to sexual preference (same, opposite, either)... maybe that's messier than it needs to be but basically: If a males is attracted to the gender of his mate he would get extra points of "compatibility" when marrying a mate of that gender... if the mate he marries is attracted to males that's twice as many extra points of compatibility... then, you include compatibility in your XP bonus for raising a kid such that you might choose to do a non-procreating pair if their compatibility and personality traits were strong enough to outweigh their lack of genetic offspring.

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right now heros rely on:

1: lvls and xp

2: age and fertility

3: relics

4: genetic traits

5: personality traits

6: stat growth based of a combination of parent's classes and parents's lvl at birth

7: resurch to support playstye

8: hybrids and core class balance (not an issue yet)

all these things come out of the breeding system... and same sex couples have literaly no stake in the breeding system.

furthur more all these things that come out of the breeding system need to be balanced somehow. these core driving concepts stem out of birth and bloodline management

if you add ontop of this system (which isnt quite balanced yet) some hack to make same sex marriages viable. i think you risk unbalancing the pyramid which already canbe gamed and heavily favors xp over traits anyway.

if the game is about breeding and maintaining bloodlines to serve an end goal. then same sex couples have very little to contribute to that core mechanic. in fact from a purely fictional perspective same sex marriages have little to do with the entire fictional situation of this nation under seige. right now you can have a same sex couple and not suffer badly for doing so, you can even (in some rare circumstances) benifit from same sex couples when a families traits are poor. that for me is enough.

you can imagine that this kingdom is full of same sex couples, you can imagin that these heroes are going buck wiled with each-other off screen in all kinds of fulfilling and freaky ways. but from the players perspective, as immortal rular, guiding bloodlines towards a battle 300 years in the future... the "in-game" validity of same sex marridge is a non issue. same sex marridges dont progress the bloodlines... and they don't hinder the bloodlines.... so they dont effect the immortal rular's plans... so they arnt important to the game.... so... ya.

if there is time in development i would enjoy it if same sex marriages developed some sort of utility, but as i have said before. whatever that utility is, it should have something to do with an aspect of the game that isnt breeding. make a same-sex keep function like a halfway sage-write and crucible, or let same sex partners continue to serve as fighting heros or something.

buffing adoption is a bad idea. as it is, biological traits have a minimal effect on game play already. further reducing the importance of long standing bloodlines and passing on genes will only serve to gut the game of the strength in it's core conceit.--> the bloodlines!

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Zdesert, I think you've missed the nuance in the discussion being had here.

The point is not to figure out a way to make same sex or infertile couples just as useful in all situations. The point is that one of the cool things about their inclusion (except that it's just nice to have) is that it offers up another strategic option by providing moments where the number of potential partners might be broadened. But right now, there's very little incentive to ever explore that option.

Let me try an analogy. Let's say you had a card game where most of the time you draw cards into your hand of 5 cards from a regular draw pile. But there's a second draw pile which contains different cards, but when you draw from there you have to discard 2 cards.

Drawing from the second pile is never going to be as common as drawing from the regular pile because you'd be discarding too much (similarly, same sex or infertile couples will never be as common because you'd be adopting too much and leaving a lot of free kids out of the picture.)

But it may be an interesting side strategy to employ on occasion. But it would only be interesting if the other pile of cards sometimes offered you something you wouldn't get from the other pile, and what it offered was interesting enough to sacrifice a couple of cards for.

In MASSIVE CHALICE what this means is that there's not much point having this as an option unless the game is balanced such that

a) adopting feels like slightly less of a penalty

b) there are occasion, but not necessarily constant or forced ways of making it a strategic choice.

My thread on adoption talks about a) and here we are talking about b) and a) both. Suggestions so far have included:

*Being able to see physical traits of adoptees before choosing to adopt

*a mechanic where certain characters have bonds as a status or trait regardless of gender which improve stats when they marry.

*a slightly lowered birth rate and/or a slightly cheaper adoption rate.

None of these things would turn adoption into a dominant strategy (and seriously can we PLEASE stop with the insinuation that including same sex couples is going to take our videogame away) . But they might turn it into that second pile of Cards that it's occasionally useful to draw from.

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Just some random thoughts on the matter:

-Maybe give a bonus to adoption research rate for every same sex couple? Would make adoption less punishing for them.

-I like the personality trait idea, but I think bonded pairs could be hard to set up (as you need to reference another character). What might be easier is to have something like the Fancies Men/Women potentials from Valkyria Chronicles. Have it give a buff in combat if near appropriate member or some buff to trainees when appropriately paired as regents.

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My really quick thoughts on distinguishing hetero and same-sex couples.

* Same-sex couples get a trickle of "free" adopted babies as if they were a hetero couple.

* Adopted children of a same-sex couple have zero chance of earning their parents' Traits, but a higher-than-normal chance of taking on their parents' Personality. This makes the choice between a hetero couple and same-sex couple "Traits & Personality" vs. "no Traits, more Personality".

* This system would be in addition to "Chalice adoption", which would exist, with some tweaks, to fill in other strategic holes.

To me, the sticking point with this is how it interacts with "Infertile" and "Bountiful". In essence, having an "Infertile" member of a same-sex couple should prevent this free adoption, but that makes no thematic sense. The Traits could be renamed to be more generally about child-rearing (i.e., "Curmudgeons" refuse to willingly have or adopt children), but that sort of thing should very much be a Personality, not a Trait. Hrmm.

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Yeah, I think it's important that it makes both thematic and strategic sense. No sense in adding buffs purely to fix balance problems, because if there's no reason for the buff to exist then it becomes very unintuitive. So I always favour indirect buffs (the stuff that has been suggested such as lowering the birthrate slightly, is a good one because that is already upgradable, so does the stuff about personal bonds between potential mates, as they can be between any gender)

Generally I'm interested in organic ways to solve the problem.

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To add to this, here are current small tweaks I think they could make to make adoption (and therefore same sex partners and infertile partners) more of a strategic option, while making them not 'cheaty', in combination:

* Lower the birthrate a little for standardly fertile and bountiful couples.

* Lower the time it takes to adopt.

* Add a couple of research options to buff adoption, e.g by increasing the chance of positive traits, or giving a choice or children to adopt

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To add to this, here are current small tweaks I think they could make to make adoption (and therefore same sex partners and infertile partners) more of a strategic option, while making them not 'cheaty', in combination:

* Lower the birthrate a little for standardly fertile and bountiful couples.

* Lower the time it takes to adopt.

* Add a couple of research options to buff adoption, e.g by increasing the chance of positive traits, or giving a choice or children to adopt

I don't mind the first two. The third seems bit haphazard.

Smiles

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To add to this, here are current small tweaks I think they could make to make adoption (and therefore same sex partners and infertile partners) more of a strategic option, while making them not 'cheaty', in combination:

* Lower the birthrate a little for standardly fertile and bountiful couples.

* Lower the time it takes to adopt.

* Add a couple of research options to buff adoption, e.g by increasing the chance of positive traits, or giving a choice or children to adopt

I don't mind the first two. The third seems bit haphazard.

Smiles

Well it's in line with stuff that's already in the game, like right now there are 'boost' research options for fertility, XP, etc. Why not a boost option for adoption that makes adoption significantly more useful?

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A suggestion I didn't see in other places, hope I didn't miss it:

Make couples with no children act as standards (Give XP \ personality traits to all trainees). The explanation is that couples without children have time to train others. That way, if you have enough children in a generation, maybe you create a same sex couple to get an XP bonus. Different sex couples are at a disadvantage in this aspect because they'll eventually have a child without your control (unless you also add a research item "birth control"?). Most of the code and interface for this could be co-opted from the crucibles. The only problem is that it might make crucibles less important, but that could be countered by making this kind of training much weaker (e.g. two level 5 heroes in a keep with no children train like one level 5 standard). Alternatively you could ditch crucibles entirely (If you want a "crucible", put a partnerless regent in a keep), but that might be too difficult to rebalance.

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A suggestion I didn't see in other places, hope I didn't miss it:

Make couples with no children act as standards (Give XP \ personality traits to all trainees). The explanation is that couples without children have time to train others. That way, if you have enough children in a generation, maybe you create a same sex couple to get an XP bonus. Different sex couples are at a disadvantage in this aspect because they'll eventually have a child without your control (unless you also add a research item "birth control"?). Most of the code and interface for this could be co-opted from the crucibles. The only problem is that it might make crucibles less important, but that could be countered by making this kind of training much weaker (e.g. two level 5 heroes in a keep with no children train like one level 5 standard). Alternatively you could ditch crucibles entirely (If you want a "crucible", put a partnerless regent in a keep), but that might be too difficult to rebalance.

I don't think it's a bad idea, but then you hit the problem of why you'd have crucibles - it would seem a shame to lose them, and also adoption and so forth, because adoption can occasionally be an interesting mechanic.

But it is more in line with my original ideas that spawned the initial discussion over a year ago - my original idea is that couples of any combination could marry and either build a keep for having children and breeding heroes, or become more of a research partnership to invent cool stuff.

This idea eventually morphed into the Sagewright's guild that we see in the game today, but now it's for individuals rather than couples.

This makes total sense, but I still find the idea that a couple can offer more than simply the next generation of heroes. I just think that the way that the game works now, that's unlikely to happen, so the best way to make infertile or same sex couples really viable in the game seems to me to be to make adoption slightly less punitive.

There's no evidence it needs to be so punitive, is where I'm at with this right now. People are occasionally adopting when they have no other choice, or toward the end of the game, but it's never going to be a mechanic which completely overtakes other options, so why not do some things which make it an interesting side strategy.

But anyway, I asked Brad if he thought we'd given enough feedback in this area and he said that yes we have and he'd be thinking about how to approach this. So I guess we'll see!

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A suggestion I didn't see in other places, hope I didn't miss it:

Make couples with no children act as standards (Give XP \ personality traits to all trainees). The explanation is that couples without children have time to train others. That way, if you have enough children in a generation, maybe you create a same sex couple to get an XP bonus. Different sex couples are at a disadvantage in this aspect because they'll eventually have a child without your control (unless you also add a research item "birth control"?). Most of the code and interface for this could be co-opted from the crucibles. The only problem is that it might make crucibles less important, but that could be countered by making this kind of training much weaker (e.g. two level 5 heroes in a keep with no children train like one level 5 standard). Alternatively you could ditch crucibles entirely (If you want a "crucible", put a partnerless regent in a keep), but that might be too difficult to rebalance.

I don't think it's a bad idea, but then you hit the problem of why you'd have crucibles - it would seem a shame to lose them, and also adoption and so forth, because adoption can occasionally be an interesting mechanic.

But it is more in line with my original ideas that spawned the initial discussion over a year ago - my original idea is that couples of any combination could marry and either build a keep for having children and breeding heroes, or become more of a research partnership to invent cool stuff.

This idea eventually morphed into the Sagewright's guild that we see in the game today, but now it's for individuals rather than couples.

This makes total sense, but I still find the idea that a couple can offer more than simply the next generation of heroes. I just think that the way that the game works now, that's unlikely to happen, so the best way to make infertile or same sex couples really viable in the game seems to me to be to make adoption slightly less punitive.

There's no evidence it needs to be so punitive, is where I'm at with this right now. People are occasionally adopting when they have no other choice, or toward the end of the game, but it's never going to be a mechanic which completely overtakes other options, so why not do some things which make it an interesting side strategy.

But anyway, I asked Brad if he thought we'd given enough feedback in this area and he said that yes we have and he'd be thinking about how to approach this. So I guess we'll see!

Sounds interesting and simple.

There could be only one kind of building (The keep).

When assigning regents, you'd decide what duty they have :

- Training their own children (High XP boost to local Trainees)

- Training all the children (Standard ; low XP boost to all Trainees)

- Research (sagewright)

Once assigned a duty, the regent will execute it until no longer a regent. All other heroes are "active" and ready for battle. A couple doing the same duty might have a bonus to that duty, at a disadvantage (ex : less fertility due to intensive research).

A couple doing research could have a bonus to research, they still have children, but their children will have less XP when becoming active at 15 years old.

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I that what you've described was the initial brainstorm MC had back in early development -- you'd tell your heroes to focus on specific aspects of childhood training or researching, etc.

Smiles

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I that what you've described was the initial brainstorm MC had back in early development -- you'd tell your heroes to focus on specific aspects of childhood training or researching, etc.

Smiles

Oh, I wasn't there :-D

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I that what you've described was the initial brainstorm MC had back in early development -- you'd tell your heroes to focus on specific aspects of childhood training or researching, etc.

Smiles

Yeah, that had it's origins in the question I posed in the same sex partners thread right at the start of the project which was "what if the output of a relationship could be more than just kids" but the idea drifted away from relationships and more towards just heroes.

To be honest I'd be in favour of having Bloodline Keeps, Training Keeps and Research Keeps, all of which needing a regent to run (and optionally a partner for chance of children/research boost/training boost)

But on the other hand I'd miss the nice thematic contrivance of the Sagewrights stripping heroes of their bloodline and so forth. I feel like it might just be a bit late in the design to change that stuff (even if I can think of ways of doing it that maybe wouldn't be tooo crazy). But it's quite an interesting way to look at another possible approach the design could have taken.

As it is, I think we're probably better off looking at ways to tweak what's already there.

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@Kestrel Actually I think what I said was riffing off a vague memory of your original idea to turn it into a smaller change. Thinking about it more, maybe the best solution would be that you could marry an infertile \ same sex partner into a crucible, and thus have double the XP gain. Could be justified in lore by saying that fertile couples are not allowed to be standards together because the children would distract them. That could be a very small interface change (depends on how the code is arranged) and it's not a huge rebalancing.

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@Kestrel Actually I think what I said was riffing off a vague memory of your original idea to turn it into a smaller change. Thinking about it more, maybe the best solution would be that you could marry an infertile \ same sex partner into a crucible, and thus have double the XP gain. Could be justified in lore by saying that fertile couples are not allowed to be standards together because the children would distract them. That could be a very small interface change (depends on how the code is arranged) and it's not a huge rebalancing.

Or the partner could pass on personality traits but not XP to recruits.

That said, I tend to err on the side of thinking these things have wider ramifications than we're immediately aware, though. For example if you allow a partner to marry a standard, aside from the slight balance screen you'd have to adjust the screen where you assign the standard, explain what the partner is there for if not to have children, remove or in fact probably change those lines in the dialogue about the Standard being a lonely job, during the tutorial part, etc.

And then the changes would need to be even wider ranging for the Sagewrights, if they went down the same road.

Nowadays I always tend to assume that a change, minor or major is always at least twice as much work as it sounds ;)

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Of course - even a small change is a lot of work, but it's less work than a big change :-) Anyway, as you said earlier, I guess this is all out of scope anyway.

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A lot of good thoughts in this thread.

In all of my time playing MC, I think that I have married same-sex couples perhaps once or twice. I agree, that too often the chance for additional babies (even if low) outweighs the potential experience gain or personality traits, which are currently the only strategic reasons to have a same-sex couple. And because you cannot "pause" research, but instead must restart it, doing multiple adoptions for a same-sex couple can be quite damaging to your overall strategy. Also, the time that you sacrifice continues to increase as well.

One thought that came to mind was in regards to how same-sex couples will affect hybrid classes. I'm not sure if Brad has mentioned it anywhere, but what if the trainees' classes were determined by their parent and their partner when they came of age, rather than when their biological parents when they were born?

For instance, you really love Caberjack-Alchemists. You have a Caberjack regent and they marry an old Alchemist and they have 3 babies. Ten years later, the partner (Alchemist) dies of old age. Now because the class of the new partner matters, you have an extra axis of restriction for whom the regent will marry.

Perhaps you really want those Caberjack-Achemists and you're now willing to only have 3 trainees to do it. That's cool, but you have to marry in another Alchemist, and if you're short on Alchemists, the extra restriction of the class may outweigh the potential loss of extra babies and you may end up going with a same-sex couple. This would potentially give you another strategic reason to set up same-sex couples.

You could make the system a little more random and give each trainee's class to be determined by the percentage of time they were under each partner as well, though I'm not sure if the extra uncertainty would be fun or not.

I don't know, just a thought I suppose.

This has the side effect of giving a reason for older regents occasionally wanting to experiment later in their lives. And... I'm not sure if that's the message that DF wants to go for either.

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as far as i can tell the partner dosn't contribute any xp to a marridge anyway and is just there for genetic traits. so same sex marriages are not nearly as bad as you might think. actually they are no different then single parent keeps.

also i have done a bunch of testing and the genetic system is so random, unless you are marrying two incredibly similar heros your traits dont really pass down. and if you have 1 shared trait between 2 partners, you have about a 1 in 6 chance of passing it on. and i have seen no evidence that recessive or non-active traits stay in a bloodline over more then 2 generations. so mathematically adoption is about as good as any other way to get heroes.

my two cents

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