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Geisterkarle

My big feedback

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Ok, I am now in my second final battle around the 7 or 8 wave, so still the program can't count to 5 correctly... time to throw a little bit feedback out. It's a little bit brainstorming, so "random" order. Also: In this game I have Caberjacks and Hunters, no Alchemists! So I can't give to much intelligence on them...

1. game variety

While there are quite nice and random things, like events, how many children are born etc., I would like the overall "map" a little bit more diverse. It's always the same, always you get the same buffs in the same places. How about "randomizing" the map? We could always get the same amount of countries (or even that varied in a small window), but maybe it could be more or less "outside" places, that can be attacked, also more and different buffs to build something in the areas. Like, higher fertility, higher evasion, ... and maybe even make those buffs quite significant, so that you could change your "game plan" a little bit around it. I wouldn't mind if negative effects would be there too!

Now it's basically "too easy" to get to the end, because it is always "the same"!

2. Save abuse

I admit it: I abuse the save function! I will not miss or not get a critical, because there is always a save game I can fall back to and try again! And this is quite too strong! Maybe deactivate the save function completely (so you can only start at the beginning of the fight), but maybe then we need some adjustments to the enemies, because it will get really hard to live through it, if ! Or there could be an autosave every 3 rounds or so... or at least give a few more game options to get this for easy to hard games! For now we only have "normal" game play!

3. Items

Maybe I'm playing wrong, but most items are really irrelevant. Latest in the final fight the level 10 is crucial and because of Lapses it's Wünderpants all around! And even before I normally get Vitalibands on Caberjacks and Steady Hands on Hunters. Sometimes I got Experience Scarfs. But that was it. Now that I think about it, maybe the Livesteal could be nice for Caberjacks if it's not capped (never used it for now, so I really don't know :P) Alchemists can get 2 items (if skilled) and so are a little bit more diverse, but they need other items and also are quite useless in the end fight for now (I get to that).

Also I never found out, why Hunters should wear anything else then Veil Armor... Caberjacks I go with Bulwark armor, but lately maybe the Advanced Caberjack armor could also be quite nice, because the first hit can be really evil... alchemists just standard and be happy, I guess

4. Hunter

Of all hero types I think Hunters are the best how they are now! The latest changes to their "Chalk up" are fine (but bugged: its not +5% every time, but the first is 4%! Or was this like this?). Also their weapons are quite useful overall! Relics are great, of course. Blunderbows are dealing quite great damage. Barbs have nice utility usage, especially in the end fight to Hobble more than one enemy and overall getting enemies a little down. I currently blunder and relic with my two hunters in the end fight, but with chalk up the multiple hits could be quite relevant, if you manage to "Chalk up". (little side question: if you kill more than one enemy in one round; do you get two+ "Chalk up" or only one? Anyone managed that?)

5. Caberjack

It is probably the most important part of the end fight, because he can take out a whole wave spot in one turn! But I'm not convinced of its weapons... the knockback caber is sooo strong, if you can line up the enemies to walls or other enemies. And you don't have to get lucky for critical hits by relics. Those relics are not dealing that much more damage! And I don't use Timefists. They don't crit and they don't deal Knockbackdamage. Oh yeah: Knockback cabers are the natural enemy of Ruptures; I like that! ;)

So overall, the relics should be stronger to be more relevant. Now it's more a "double damage without a wall" against the knockbacks!

6. Alchemist

Like I said, I don't have any and I don't use them. So it seems they are irrelevant.

In my first final fight I had one but after its flask run out it was dead meat. They have nice usages, but for now there should be more ... maybe I will use them more in my next run, for now I can't say too much.

7. relics

I mentioned relics already, but one thing I would like of them is to add more than the weapon. The deal damage and crit, that was it. But what about if they all get a special, random buff for the carrier? Like a higher evasion or a better accuracy? More life? ...Makes them more special and useful!

8. Standards

There is a thread that deals with level 10 "kids" at year 150. And while I got there now at around year 220, I think Standards are really important; maybe too important, because it is damn important to get your youth to level 10, because you don't have time in the end to level all of them up.

I'm not sure how to deal with this ... you should be able to get to level 10 but to early and it gets too easy. In this "tactic", you don't even use Sagewright’s Guilds. Maybe there is the key: That you have to research higher levels or something like that. Also over there is a nice discussion going on!

Ok, now I'm out of items (or maybe just my brain), but wanted to get it out now! Hope it helps! Really fun game and I'm happy supporting it!

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Regarding the map, I'm pretty sure that the bonuses for the outer ring are randomly selected each game. Otherwise good feedback!

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@ 2. Please by God dont disable save, it is not my (nor anyone elses Problem) if some people abuse saves. Ive seen this discussion in the WL2 Board over at Inxile, please dont make it a major inconvenience for players. If people have fun playing with save scumming so be it, thats a choice not encouraged or forced. Thank you

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@lordofriva - we don't plan on disabling saves! We'll put the IRON MODE in soon and then you can decide if you want to remove the crutch or not. :D

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@Geisterkarle - thanks for the feedback! Some really great notes in there! :D!

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@Geisterkarle - thanks for the feedback! Some really great notes in there! :D!

Thanks. We are beta testers, so we should try to give nice feedback :)

I forgot one thing I had on my mind:

In a fight,when you walk around, the screen will show you enemies, when you hit someone there is a message (maybe glancing blow, miss, ...) then you get your xp shown, maybe an "upgrade" like "chalk up", then a comment from the hero or some voice acting, ...

sometimes I think "get on with it!!!" and it feels really "slow"!

Could we have an fight "style" for experienced players that don't care about all those messages? Then it would feel faster, more fluid, more "hit, ok, next!"

Maybe the screen focus to found enemies could stay ... or we get this "overview map" that I think was requested a few times already! ;)

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Maybe there could be a compromised solution for the saving games issue? Afterall it's not there to allow you to cheat, it's there to allow you to save your game and return to it at a later date.

If it's too easy to be midway through a level and "Save > Move > Miss > Load > Move > Hit > Load > Move > Critical Hit > Save" then you could change the in-level save to "Save & Quit". This solution should please illathid, as it won't affect them in the slightest, while also addressing the valid issue that Geisterkarle raised: Namely it's human nature to take the path of least resistance when something gets difficult.

Obviously really determined people can still "cheat" if they wish, but it won't be quite as effortless.

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Hmm, I just assumed that during a fight you cannot save, only on the timeline. Don't know why I assumed this but that would be OK for me if that was a possibility. Haven't been able to really played a lot and didn't get past 250 years yet, so maybe the endgame needs the saving option more.

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Hmm, I just assumed that during a fight you cannot save, only on the timeline.

Same here, actually. Do levels really go on so long that you need to save mid-fight? Seems unnecessary to me -- but it just struck me that an "in level" Save & Quit function would make everyone happy.

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Maybe there could be a compromised solution for the saving games issue? Afterall it's not there to allow you to cheat, it's there to allow you to save your game and return to it at a later date.

If it's too easy to be midway through a level and "Save > Move > Miss > Load > Move > Hit > Load > Move > Critical Hit > Save" then you could change the in-level save to "Save & Quit". This solution should please illathid, as it won't affect them in the slightest, while also addressing the valid issue that Geisterkarle raised: Namely it's human nature to take the path of least resistance when something gets difficult.

Obviously really determined people can still "cheat" if they wish, but it won't be quite as effortless.

A good idea, but I wasn't the one worried about save stuff. ;)

I think it would be fair to not be able to save during a fight. Or maybe just have any save made make a duplicate of the autosave from the first round of combat?

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I'd definitely like to save during fights (and autosave, too). They lasted between 20-40 minutes for me, on average, and that's definitely enough time to cause frustration if I have to suddenly shut down, or something crashes, or any number of other reasons I might have for not doing a mission all in one sitting.

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I'd definitely like to save during fights (and autosave, too). They lasted between 20-40 minutes for me, on average, and that's definitely enough time to cause frustration if I have to suddenly shut down, or something crashes, or any number of other reasons I might have for not doing a mission all in one sitting.

Did you save during fights while playing so far? Also, would an autosave plus a manual "Save & Quit" option suffice for you? Just wondering. Maybe they need to keep it for some people, but I can understand the desire to remove temptation.

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Did you save during fights while playing so far?

Yes

Also, would an autosave plus a manual "Save & Quit" option suffice for you?

No. I like the way it is at the moment.

Save&Quit; as the only option would be very annoying

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I'd definitely like to save during fights (and autosave, too). They lasted between 20-40 minutes for me, on average, and that's definitely enough time to cause frustration if I have to suddenly shut down, or something crashes, or any number of other reasons I might have for not doing a mission all in one sitting.

Did you save during fights while playing so far? Also, would an autosave plus a manual "Save & Quit" option suffice for you? Just wondering. Maybe they need to keep it for some people, but I can understand the desire to remove temptation.

Yes, and sort of. It'd solve the problem most of the way, but wouldn't guard against unexpected crashes etc. I like autosave for that.

But I just think more than anything that players can be trusted to play the game how they like it. I didn't reload or anything. If someone wants to do that to "brute force" a win, then that's their business.

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Save&Quit; as the only option would be very annoying

Can I ask why? (Note: We're only talking about saving during fights, not outside of them... The save function would remain the same there.)

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I'd definitely like to save during fights (and autosave, too). They lasted between 20-40 minutes for me, on average, and that's definitely enough time to cause frustration if I have to suddenly shut down, or something crashes, or any number of other reasons I might have for not doing a mission all in one sitting.

Did you save during fights while playing so far? Also, would an autosave plus a manual "Save & Quit" option suffice for you? Just wondering. Maybe they need to keep it for some people, but I can understand the desire to remove temptation.

Also, I'd ask whether YOU saved during fights so far? If not, then I'm curious about the motivation for policing how other people might choose to play. What's it to you?

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Also, I'd ask whether YOU saved during fights so far? If not, then I'm curious about the motivation for policing how other people might choose to play. What's it to you?

I didn't save during fights because I wasn't aware it was an option.

I'm curious about this from a game design POV. At the moment the system seems to serve the function to allow people to cheat, which as been identified as a problem for some players. (And I wonder if I'll find myself doing it if I get annoyed, too.) I'm interested to see if there's another reason for keeping it the way it is.

Thinking about it more, I wonder if the problem some are having isn't with the saving, it's with the loading. Being able to quickly load a save from the pause menu is probably what creates this issue for players.

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Can I ask why? (Note: We're only talking about saving during fights, not outside of them... The save function would remain the same there.)

Sometimes I like to try something very risky (or very stupid?) during a fight and I like to have that safety net.

I think for all the people who don't want to save but don't have the self control to do so, the mentioned "IRON MODE"-mode is the perfect solution...

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Can I ask why? (Note: We're only talking about saving during fights, not outside of them... The save function would remain the same there.)

Sometimes I like to try something very risky (or very stupid?) during a fight and I like to have that safety net.

I think for all the people who don't want to save but don't have the self control to do so, the mentioned "IRON MODE"-mode is the perfect solution...

I agree. Save scumming has its place, especially when you want to try something quickly without consequences, test out a "perfect" run, etc. iron mode is for emergent stories and playing the game hardcore. This won't be much of a problem once that option has been implemented.

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Also, I'd ask whether YOU saved during fights so far? If not, then I'm curious about the motivation for policing how other people might choose to play. What's it to you?

I didn't save during fights because I wasn't aware it was an option.

I'm curious about this from a game design POV. At the moment the system seems to serve the function to allow people to cheat, which as been identified as a problem for some players. (And I wonder if I'll find myself doing it if I get annoyed, too.) I'm interested to see if there's another reason for keeping it the way it is.

Thinking about it more, I wonder if the problem some are having isn't with the saving, it's with the loading. Being able to quickly load a save from the pause menu is probably what creates this issue for players.

There is just no issue though.

If people want to cheat, let them cheat. It doesnt do harm i mean its a SIngle player game. If you look at it from a game design perspective try it the other way around (because that is how its is atm) What would a restricted save system ADD to the game?

I didnt save during missions so far (i wasnt even aware that it is possible) before i read this thread. Restricting the save system only adds one thing, it makes the game less accesible for people who have troubles with the game mechanics/feel that the game is too hard.

This may not include me or you or anyone in this Topic, but still saving helps closing the gap here and i couldnt care less if you cheated yourself on the chess game with yourself.

For all that matters, Brad already said that saving will stay, also we will get a Iron(man?) mode that disables saving. Problem solved?

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I guess you missed it, but the first post in this thread specifically talks about the problem the OP (and his friends?) were having by it being too easy to save.

Iron Man mode disables ALL saving, as I understand it, so it's possibly little bit too hardcore for most players (especially ones who already find themselves save scumming).

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@Geisterkarle : I will answer/complete your feedback with mine.

In this game I have Caberjacks and Hunters, no Alchemists! So I can't give to much intelligence on them...

I had 6 families, 2 of each class. At any time, I would have 2 caberjacks (one of each family), 2 Hunters (one of each) and a mascot.

1. game variety

[...] I would like the overall "map" a little bit more diverse. [...] Now it's basically "too easy" to get to the end, because it is always "the same"!

I don't mind about the game set-up. I was thinking about other issues :

1) Considering 6 Keeps, 2 crucibles and 2 sagewright. Sometimes, Relics can become "in danger" if a family line would stop : either because of fertility problems, or the loss of a Region in end-game.

=> A power-player would just make 2 castles per blood-lines, and the problem is solved. I think having two Keeps of the same Bloodline goes against the "game ideology", and should be banned.

=> Instead I suggest One keep maximum per bloodline, and the added ability to appoint a "Heir" in advance, who would live at the castle, procreate with his partner, but wouldn't participate (or less) in the trainee's training.

2) Not mentionning an "Alchemist-only game" (which I'm trying right now), I think the battles are too easy (because Monsters do not play as a Team). Battles should be harders, with a twist : think every hero living in a defending region (Standards & Regents) should have the opportunity to join in the fight. It's good for the Morale if the Regents defends his people.

2. Save abuse

Not an issue. You decide if you use it.

3. Items

Maybe I'm playing wrong, but most items are really irrelevant.

Indeed. Items:

=> Caberjacks MUST have Wunderpants. A caberjack cannot lose his level 10 ability, because it makes it too Harper strong.

=> Hunters are required to have SteadyHands against Hi-evasion enemies (they never get hurt anyways)

=> Alchemists : They bring healing potions but are never used.

=> Aging potions : Why do they even exist? Battles are so rare, you cannot "risk" trying such an item, without knowing the effect in advance.

Armors :

=> Caberjacks : I tried the full plate armor, but not worth it (not enough damage-reduction). Since monsters do not play in Team, a caberjack in Bulwark-amor would often get hit by a seed first, then absorb all the rest of the damage.

=> Hunters : Veil Armor. Unless regular armor boosts the attack, hiding is better.

=> Alchemists : Not sure, but they look nice.

Weapons :

=> Caberjacks : With a Rupture-Caber, you can kill 3 enemies in a single line, and stun the 4th. It is as strong as a level 10 relic (one of each in a team is great). Time-fist caber is not even worth mentioning ; if it had 20-30 base damage, and then maybe I would consider one.

=> Hunters : Balanced enough. Relics are the best. Blunderbow is a good second choice, although "Bone-barb bow" is better than the Blunderbow in the very last mission (otherwise I don't use it).

=> Alchemists : Due to lack of Ruptures, I discovered the Boom-Slinger in year 290, and it's the best. Pillar pitcher is useless. I don't know for relics, never had one.

4. HunterOf all hero types I think Hunters are the best how they are now!

Hunters a great and needed, but a level 10 caberjack is better.

5. Caberjack

Once they reach level 10, and have wonderpants, the game is won. Again, a level 10 relic is just as good as the Rupture-caber.

6. Alchemist

Like I said, I don't have any and I don't use them. So it seems they are irrelevant.

In my first final fight I had one but after its flask run out it was dead meat. They have nice usages, but for now there should be more ... maybe I will use them more in my next run, for now I can't say too much.

I just started an "all-alchemist team", to get a fair challenge against the game, and to try their "different skills", because most of them seemed useless.

I think

1) they need an ability to fill/make potions

2) second item slot should be free at level 4. Abilities at Level 6 should be between "item throwing" and "3rd item". We never used "Item throwing" because it seemed extremely specific for the "Rupture core", but we never used it (since throwing potions was never needed, nor throwing a steady hander).

Suggestions :

1) Every hero should have 2 item slots : 1 for equipable item, and 1 for usable item. Alchemists would have and extra "free" slot in which they can put whatever they want. THEN, most items would have a use.

2) Maybe if we could go "Hunt" for cadence for fun, and try different skills and items in less dangerous battles, with less useful heroes (ie : aging potions)

7. relics

I mentioned relics already, but one thing I would like of them is to add more than the weapon.

I suggest relics are more frequent, and that we turn relics into special weapons (caber with explosive tip, or higher critical and damage, ...)

8. Standards

There is a thread that deals with level 10 "kids" at year 150. And while I got there now at around year 220, I think Standards are really important; maybe too important, because it is damn important to get your youth to level 10, because you don't have time in the end to level all of them up.

I'm not sure how to deal with this ... you should be able to get to level 10 but to early and it gets too easy. In this "tactic", you don't even use Sagewright’s Guilds. Maybe there is the key: That you have to research higher levels or something like that. Also over there is a nice discussion going on!

Hrm... yeah. I discovered the research for BonusXP like 75 years after all my kiddies were level 10. I hope for a higher Xp cap.

Got to go!

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Idea : we could start with less regions, and be able to conquer regions. Once the game ends, the game could "continue" with total conquest of the planet, without teleportation, as initially offered by the chalice... or something...

That would be ... very different.

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I like the idea of of separate equipable/usable slots for each hero type. Maybe let the Alchemist's bonus slot be either?

I also like the idea of going on a cadence hunt to try out different builds, units, etc. It would probably need to have some balancing factor though (reduced or eliminated xp and/or kills, time limit, etc. Making it a repeatable research project like adoptions could be interesting too).

I think you're right about the same bloodline having multiple keeps too. It makes it pretty easy to keep bloodlines alive, and feels a bit weird too since the keeps have the same name.

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More mission ideas :

=> missions could have sub-objectives, like saving local "people" (non-hero), or helping a random local Hero to defend something, granting additional bonuses (xp?) if the locals are kept alive. Some local heroes could even offer to join?

=> Infiltration mission (Hunter mission) : you go destroy an objective in a corrupted land, where the cadence is at his strongest. As long as your Heroes go "unseen", you can progress safely, but if the creatures see you, the could communicate to nearby allies, and blow the Horn of alarm, summoning extra ennemies each turn, until you die, you win or you retreat.

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More mission ideas :

=> missions could have sub-objectives, like saving local "people" (non-hero), or helping a random local Hero to defend something, granting additional bonuses (xp?) if the locals are kept alive. Some local heroes could even offer to join?

I'll second that idea. The keep battles are neat because you get your regents to help out, but in regular battles where are the local people?

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More mission ideas :

=> missions could have sub-objectives, like saving local "people" (non-hero), or helping a random local Hero to defend something, granting additional bonuses (xp?) if the locals are kept alive. Some local heroes could even offer to join?

I'll second that idea. The keep battles are neat because you get your regents to help out, but in regular battles where are the local people?

This probably is too late to add in, unless they can quickly take say the sagewright model and adapt it to "local populous" model. In general, the terror missions in x-com weren't really that fun to me. They were a thing to do and that was different, but I am not sure that the difference actually had much of an impact on the fun value. I had much more fun with alternate human enemy missions.

Smiles

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