Jump to content
Double Fine Action Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Cymen

Is this normal? [Imbalanced Starting Hero Classes]

Recommended Posts

My game is pretty much doomed at this point. All my warriors died in one mission due to two piercing double kills (turns out range doesn't matter if there is one more hero in line of the shot on the other end of the map). But I do not see how I could have played differently with what I had. I only had one hunter all game and no Alchemists. All Caberjacks. I also did not have any females, so breeding new heroes was out of question. So I tried recruiting new heroes but 40 years (2 seconds) before they arrived, the Cadence attacked. I had only one hero left so I couldn't send him into a Level 2 threat area. The land was lost. Is it normal that you do not get Alchemists until later in the game? Or am I just unlucky?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started my current game with no caberjacks, so you're not the only one at least.

I imagine it isn't intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah you were just very unlucky. Starting heroes are completely random (although more than one person has suggested having a more balanced option when starting the game) so start up another game and you'll probably find a better squad.

As for is it intended? I've come to the conclusion that Brad is a sadist and likes to see people suffer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started with no Alchemists. I managed to get 1 later down the road as a combat victory reward. I quickly put him in a keep and made sure he had lots of babies.

Next time try and do the same :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies. I have to say that they should at least start you with one of each class...I felt like there was nothing I could do which is frustrating. I am okay with chance and randomness screwing you over but not having an Alchemist and only one Hunter for half a century really made the game unplayable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Brad has liked an ultra random start, but I think for the sake of giving everyone at least one of each class, a little random fixing is probably better. But we'll see as the next patches come!

Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started a new game an got a nice mix of heroes right away. Still, they really should ensure you one of each class. It is the tutorial after all...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also after researching your first keep it might be smart to research the extra group of soldiers so to say.

That is usually the best way to get the other classes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also after researching your first keep it might be smart to research the extra group of soldiers so to say.

That is usually the best way to get the other classes.

Although once again it's completely random so it's no guarantee :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I think that the All Random start is the best, but I suspect this is because we have played the crap out of the game internally and it's a nice curveball that forces you to play the game in a different way. MASSIVE CHALICE is all about curveballs that force you to play the game in a different way, so I thought this one would be fine too!

We've gotten a lot of feedback about including a "balanced start" option. I think that we'll end up doing this, but the thing that bums me out about it is that the human brain is all about the path of least resistance. If we put this option in I don't think that anyone would NOT use it because they want to feel comfortable. And then I think players are missing out on the cool challenge of starting with only Caberjacks, or starting with only one crappy Hunter and trying to deal with it!

To me, game design is about constraints and trying to present interesting challenges to players. But I also understand that upon coming to the game for the first time you really want to have a smoother experience. So I think we'll jam this thing in there. :D

Any ideas for what the option should be called??? :D!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also @Cymen I just changed the title of this thread to make it more helpful for me so I can find it later! Hope you don't mind. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also after researching your first keep it might be smart to research the extra group of soldiers so to say.

That is usually the best way to get the other classes.

I started my last game with only one hunter who died in battle fairly soon. I managed to recover eventually, but it was rough for a while.

Personally I hit the hire additional heroes a few times in the first 20 years or so. It helps dampen the blow from the wave of death that hits when your initial heroes start to pass from old age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also @Cymen I just changed the title of this thread to make it more helpful for me so I can find it later! Hope you don't mind. :D

Maybe doing it as option random start group or that standard at the higher difficulty level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure lots of people will use the random start option, but it's pretty brutal for your first time out the gate.

If the option is for random heroes I like the word "Adventitious" (mode).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd call the forced class distribution option "Even Stevens," though I'd be tempted to also make it name all your starting heroes Steven. Alternatively; Noah Exceptions mode, ensuring you get at least a male and a female of each class to start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the biggest problem is just that people are not understanding the game when they first get in. They don't understand how keeps and starting families work so they end up losing their hunters in combat, or building keeps with only cabers or something like that.

The random generation of heroes will be easier once they make a better tutorial I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also @Cymen I just changed the title of this thread to make it more helpful for me so I can find it later! Hope you don't mind. :D

Not at all! I am happy to get a reply from you personally. I can totally see your point and the appeal of a completely random start. For example, my second game is going great with 1 Alchemist and 4 Hunters. It is just that my previous disadvantageous hero-composition was my first introduction to the game and I imagine other players who are not used to this type of game might be turned off. Players with less endurance than me, of course :P

Maybe there could be a balanced start for your first game ever? I just think it is important for completely new players to not get screwed. They could get an entirely wrong impression of the game. If you do implement a balanced start option, how about "Fortunate Ancestry" or "Remains of the Day"?

Unrelated PS: I would love a new episode of your podcast "Dota Today" but I can see where all your time has gone ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the random start is fine, but it's problematic because people are getting no information going into the game, and then get handed a non-representative starting party, that they assume is the standard.

For instance, on my first play-through, I got all Alchemists. So I assumed that Alchemists were the starting class, and I'd unlock others later. After the first battle, I had no idea how Keeps worked, so I stuck my level-2 Alchemists in there as Regents, resulting in...more Alchemists. I ditched that game when Bulwarks started ripping my alchies apart, started a new game, and realised my first experience was idiosyncratic.

If there was information in the introduction telling you that:

1) Members of your starting party are randomly chosen from among three classes

2) Descendant's classes key off your Keep's Regent's class

3) The "Recruit" research item can be used to get another random batch of heroes, to hopefully shore up missing classes

Then I think the random starts wouldn't be so bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah I think that the All Random start is the best, but I suspect this is because we have played the crap out of the game internally and it's a nice curveball that forces you to play the game in a different way. MASSIVE CHALICE is all about curveballs that force you to play the game in a different way, so I thought this one would be fine too!

We've gotten a lot of feedback about including a "balanced start" option. I think that we'll end up doing this, but the thing that bums me out about it is that the human brain is all about the path of least resistance. If we put this option in I don't think that anyone would NOT use it because they want to feel comfortable. And then I think players are missing out on the cool challenge of starting with only Caberjacks, or starting with only one crappy Hunter and trying to deal with it!

To me, game design is about constraints and trying to present interesting challenges to players. But I also understand that upon coming to the game for the first time you really want to have a smoother experience. So I think we'll jam this thing in there. :D

Any ideas for what the option should be called??? :D!

Maybe you can build this into the difficulty levels?

At the introductory difficulty, you get five of each type in your initial 15 and at least one of each type in your starting five. It also gives at least 6 of each sex.

At the normal difficulty, you get a minimum of three of each type in your initial 15 and at least one of each type in your starting five. It also gives at least 4 of each sex.

At the hardest difficulty, everything is totally random and its time to harden up.

If you don't do that, I think "Balanced Start" is a pretty clear description of what the option is. Or "Randomised Start" if you make the balanced start the default.

Another thing that makes getting past the first 50 years hard is too many Infertile heros and your normally fertile heros randomly deciding to not have children for long stretches of time. I saw that you are looking at making Infertility much rarer, but I suspect you need to look at how strong bountiful is compared to normal fertility and if normal fertility is good enough. If you have 2 or 3 keeps failing to have more than 2 or 3 babies over the first 20 years, it is really quite hard to keep going as your population just implodes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We've gotten a lot of feedback about including a "balanced start" option. I think that we'll end up doing this, but the thing that bums me out about it is that the human brain is all about the path of least resistance. If we put this option in I don't think that anyone would NOT use it because they want to feel comfortable. And then I think players are missing out on the cool challenge of starting with only Caberjacks, or starting with only one crappy Hunter and trying to deal with it!

I think a lot of people will still use it, especially the repeat players. Gamers like new challenges. Once we've beaten the game one way, we impose new challenges on ourselves to make it more interesting. (I once beat Final Fantasy tactics using a part of only bards, dancers, and mimes. Why? I wanted a new challenge.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one started my second playthrough with 5 hunters on the first mission. It was a pain killing mono seeds I can tell you that much, but I still like the idea of random starting heroes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I will say is that back when the game was much less class-balanced, a few weeks ago, this imbalance in starting classes was kind of a bummer. But now I've had a chance to get used to it, I'm kind of into it.

It really isn't too hard to recruit other classes, but it's just hard enough to provide a nice little extra challenge to the early game, if you do want the balance of classes.

I like the thought that your 'starting roll' isn't necessarily going to feel 'fair' in that someone might get better or worse traits and distribution of classes, but it's very rarely so unfair that you can't deal with it. I like modern roguelike games for the same reason - there's a degree of unpredictability there, but not so much unpredictability that you can't work with what you're dealt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been thinking about this a little more. How about the ability to designate exactly what classes you have available in your campaign?

For instance, you decide you want to play with nothing but Caberjacks. You select that and all things that generate Heros (starting 15, hero research, events, mission victory) will only generate Caberjacks. Also, region buffs that only apply to Alchemists and Hunters won't appear.

Or maybe you decide you want to play with nothing but Caberjacks and Alchemists. So anything that could generate a Hunter no longer does and Hunter region buffs no longer appear.

You could even make these a Hard Mode only feature or a New Game+ only feature so that only players that want/need more challenge will be getting them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've been thinking about this a little more. How about the ability to designate exactly what classes you have available in your campaign?

For instance, you decide you want to play with nothing but Caberjacks. You select that and all things that generate Heros (starting 15, hero research, events, mission victory) will only generate Caberjacks. Also, region buffs that only apply to Alchemists and Hunters won't appear.

Or maybe you decide you want to play with nothing but Caberjacks and Alchemists. So anything that could generate a Hunter no longer does and Hunter region buffs no longer appear.

You could even make these a Hard Mode only feature or a New Game+ only feature so that only players that want/need more challenge will be getting them.

Does anyone think we should start a Mod Pile? 'Cause I think this goes in the Mod Pile. (Assuming the final game is moddable and develops any modding community at all :P) Though at the moment its more of a Mod Stack.... a Mod Slip?....

The thing is, creating a kingdom of only one class is relatively easy. All you need to do is only use the one class in keeps, and only use the people from the keeps in battle. Even if you start with one character with that class, you should have a totally one-sided run by year 50 or something. So if you wanted to make a mod that changes your starting setup, that's a pretty simple change, but probably only for a fraction of players. Which usually spells: "Mod".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will starting heroes have the possibility of being Hybrids, or will they be pure classes?

Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will starting heroes have the possibility of being Hybrids, or will they be pure classes?

Smiles

It's a good point, but I'm guessing not- I imagine that would make it more confusing than gradually introducing them through marriages.

I'm quite interested, actually, in how they're going to go about conveying all that needs to be conveyed about hybrid classes, as they sound REALLY cool, but have the potential to be weird and confusing if not properly explained.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'd argue that Easy/Normal difficulty (or Tutorial Mode, if it exists) should force a relatively distribution of all of the core classes, and Hard (or non-Tutorial) should open the floodgates for whatever - uneven distribution, hybrid classes, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To me, game design is about constraints and trying to present interesting challenges to players. But I also understand that upon coming to the game for the first time you really want to have a smoother experience. So I think we'll jam this thing in there. :D

Any ideas for what the option should be called??? :D!

I think the default generation should have at least one character of each class/sex (6), and extra siblings of these characters.

Then, the option should be called "True random hero generation" or something, which would activate the actual (harder) generation.

With the Hybrids, I suggest the default generation to give at least 1 character of each profile (9), and that the first combat starts with the classic 3, and two others at random.

Bonus? : When starting a new game, I'd suggest that you display the hidden option for "Main starting bloodline", so that we could choose a family name/banner that we like. The default option should be [Random].

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone think we should start a Mod Pile? 'Cause I think this goes in the Mod Pile. (Assuming the final game is moddable and develops any modding community at all :P) Though at the moment its more of a Mod Stack.... a Mod Slip?....

The thing is, creating a kingdom of only one class is relatively easy. All you need to do is only use the one class in keeps, and only use the people from the keeps in battle. Even if you start with one character with that class, you should have a totally one-sided run by year 50 or something. So if you wanted to make a mod that changes your starting setup, that's a pretty simple change, but probably only for a fraction of players. Which usually spells: "Mod".

I've actually been trying it out a bit. It's not as easy as it sounds to get a decent start with only one class.

You can't be sure you'll get enough of your preferred class in the initial setup. You can't be sure that enough of the right guys will be fertile (much less bountiful) to make growing your population possible at all. You can't be sure that the guys in your preferred class won't have all the wrong stats and be completely useless next to some absolutely brilliant guys in another class. You can't be sure that rolling extra random guys is going to be of any use at all. You can't be sure that your guys with the extra level or two will be the class you wanted. With hybrids coming, it'll be even harder to keep pure classes because your pool for valid regents and partners will be even smaller.

What that means is a lot of effort on top of the normal effort of surviving the first 50 years just to get a viable start for something that can be easily added as an option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a good point, but I'm guessing not- I imagine that would make it more confusing than gradually introducing them through marriages.

I'm quite interested, actually, in how they're going to go about conveying all that needs to be conveyed about hybrid classes, as they sound REALLY cool, but have the potential to be weird and confusing if not properly explained.

I think the best way would be for an info dialog to pop up the first time you attempt to pair a regent and partner that would produce a new hybrid. Ex:

"If Bob Splattercorpse (Caberjack) and Jane Killsalot (Hunter) are married, they will produce Cabunters. Cabunters fight with cabers like normal Caberjacks, but have the stealth and scouting abilities of hunters. OK/Cancel"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...