Jump to content
Double Fine Action Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Ofidian

I don't care about my characters, maybe these will help change that? (As well as 1 or two other fixes)

Recommended Posts

Hello, I have been keeping an eye on Massive Chalice for a while. Watching team streams, lurking around the forum, ect. After playing my first 4 hours of the game and getting over 100 years into the game I decided to bring up my ideas for what I think the game may need improving on.

Keeps and Bloodlines:

1.) When adding the same bloodline to a different keep change them slightly. In ancient times families that deviated like that would alter the name .Think KarStarks in GOT who were originally part of the Starks or McDonalds from the Donald family.

2.) Give yourself the ability to remove a bloodline from a keep. When you do so the entire family within that keep maybe gets a penalty personality such as depression or disloyal. But this at least gives players a safe button if they need to start a new bloodline right away.

3.) Reduce Birthrate. Right now the game feels exactly how you didn't want it to feel. Like a baby factory breeding simulator. Reduce the Birthrate will increase the importance of each character. This will need to be balanced with combat and the timeline and I will mention that in a later section.

4.) Give a big giant warning when you are creating in infertile keep. I have many times accidentally married a couple that is infertile either due to being the same sex or because of age. Not being able to dismantle a marriage makes this a big mistake that can last decades in game.

5.) Change the age to become Regent. Right now me and a ton of other people are adding a regent when they turn 16. This means that the final battle is less interesting and the character is nothing but a baby factory. If you make the age to become a regent 30 or something they will have to fight in battles. Get levels. And hopefully become more integral to you as a player.

6.) Make it so each Bloodline has 1 Relic and only 1 Relic. I think this was in your original plan. When a Keep is created and the first member of that family dies their item becomes a relic that is passed down through the family. This item has its own levels and every time a family member that holds it dies their experience is put into the weapon allowing it to level up over the centuries. This way you are not overwhelmed with relics, and you have a sense of progression through this relic.

Combat Ideas

1.) Wrinklers attack really faster. This is just an idea I think would be cool. Wrinklers get a random amount of times they hit with each attack but the damage and aging is reduced. So they can attack anywhere from 1 to 5 attacks (think fury swipe in pokemon?) and each attack ages you 1 year. This creates a cool tense feeling every time they get close.

2.) Allow the Hunter to attack twice every time. Not literally every time. But if you do not move you get two attacks, if you move then it reverts back to the having to wait a few turns for it to reset. Just another layer of strategy.

3.) Reduce random 1 hit kills. I don't know what this was about but the guys that lob the pawns around have a cannon that in the early game could 1 hit kill my guys. I think they would be more interesting if they flung more guys but did a little less damage. Though the lobbing guys is exploitable for xp.

4.) Hard to see edge of map. There has many a times I have accidently run my guys to the end of a map because I thought it was going to continue. I think there needs to be a better indicator of the edge of a map and just regular fog of war.

The timeline and quests:

1.) The timeline goes a bit fast. People are dying so fast that an entire generation can go by and I didn't even realize it. This makes it seem like any other game instead of an epic timeline. Slow down the timeline, make combat and quests more common. When a generation dies I want to feel it. Not just a bunch of minions fell to the wayside.

2.) When you are rewarded with a new character give them a back story as to how they came upon you. "Fredrick the Lvl 4 Caber never realized his connection to the great bloodlines of the chalice. He survived with his family in the cave beside his farmhouse when teh cadence came and spent many years down their surviving off the marsh fungus that grew on the moist walls. One day the cadence wandered in how ever and killed his family, he managed to kill the cadence as revenge. The last dying words from his father was that Fredrick was adopted and his bloodline is what saved him. Wandering outside for what seemed like years he finally stumbled upon the keeps"

3.) Detailed history of your characters. Every quest, battle, and event they are part of is recorded for you to view at any time. This will allow you to deepen you connection with the character. If you forget who someone is you can look at their history, see all they have been a part of and thus strengthen your bond with them.

These are my idea fixes for a big flaw I see in the game. The lack of importance of the characters. They may not work, but I figured it was better to get these ideas out here just incase they could improve the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with most of these, but especially the map complaint. Its really hard to tell what direction you're supposed to go in to find the rest of the enemies midway through a mission, especially when the maps are rather open ended. Also, the hunter's hearing skill is really short range and you have to actively look through the fog of war, making it difficult to see exactly where they're sensing it from. It would be helpful if there was a sort of arrow or some sort of notification that helped you know which direction to go to complete the mission so the fight doesn't turn into a scavenger hunt.

Another thing that bugged me (sorry for venting or hijacking on your post) was that i couldnt tell what the field of vision was for my characters, and especially for my hunters i couldn't tell what enemies actually were in their line of sight and which were around a corner, meaning that i'd position one and then find out that they needed to be one square over to hit the enemy i had in mind. if there was like a little indicator that poppped up indicating how many enemies that character could see, that would be helpful. An undo option, at least for moves would also be welcome but its not as annoying as not knowing exactly which enemies the characters can and cant see

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, they need more indicators in combat. Line of site, vision, ect. Considering they played Xcom they probably plan on implementing those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4.) Give a big giant warning when you are creating in infertile keep. I have many times accidentally married a couple that is infertile either due to being the same sex or because of age. Not being able to dismantle a marriage makes this a big mistake that can last decades in game.

I lost an entire house to this late game. I think I assigned two of the same gender without realizing it, both extremely young. When they died, there was no one left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree, they need more indicators in combat. Line of site, vision, ect. Considering they played Xcom they probably plan on implementing those.

They should also play Valkyria Chronicles, especially now it's on steam. The game does so much right in not just the turn-based combat, but also caring about your individual characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4.) Give a big giant warning when you are creating in infertile keep. I have many times accidentally married a couple that is infertile either due to being the same sex or because of age. Not being able to dismantle a marriage makes this a big mistake that can last decades in game.

I lost an entire house to this late game. I think I assigned two of the same gender without realizing it, both extremely young. When they died, there was no one left.

When you're selecting a partner, it sorts by compatibility and has a compatibility message below each candidate which collects information about age, gender, and traits to give you a pretty accurate fertility picture.

But yes, it would be nice to be able to free up a keep, even if that means that all the children in it retire to the countryside as well. Even if it's not a mistake you initially made, sometimes circumstances change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree, they need more indicators in combat. Line of site, vision, ect. Considering they played Xcom they probably plan on implementing those.

They should also play Valkyria Chronicles, especially now it's on steam. The game does so much right in not just the turn-based combat, but also caring about your individual characters.

I like Valkyria Chronicles a lot, but it seems to me that narratively it's a very different beast. MC was never about in depth personal stories that would continue through the game, rather than about creating the history of a particular bloodline which would have its significant players and ups and downs but not be so individually focused. And I'm personally okay with that.

I do think that there are things that coud be done to give more personal attachment to individuals in the game, but I also think it has to come from making sure the systems encourage stories that happen half in the player's head, rather than as narrative delivered to the player. It would just be too tricky to zoom in TOO much on the characters when they need enough of them to span a 300 year period (and sustain multiple play-throughs potentially)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree, they need more indicators in combat. Line of site, vision, ect. Considering they played Xcom they probably plan on implementing those.

They should also play Valkyria Chronicles, especially now it's on steam. The game does so much right in not just the turn-based combat, but also caring about your individual characters.

I like Valkyria Chronicles a lot, but it seems to me that narratively it's a very different beast. MC was never about in depth personal stories that would continue through the game, rather than about creating the history of a particular bloodline which would have its significant players and ups and downs but not be so individually focused. And I'm personally okay with that.

I do think that there are things that coud be done to give more personal attachment to individuals in the game, but I also think it has to come from making sure the systems encourage stories that happen half in the player's head, rather than as narrative delivered to the player. It would just be too tricky to zoom in TOO much on the characters when they need enough of them to span a 300 year period (and sustain multiple play-throughs potentially)

I think if we want the bloodlines to hold more importance than we need a family tree as well. A map that shows us the progression of the family and the people within it.

I feel my relic idea would also bring more significant to each bloodline. Same with the idea for separating a family that has more than one keep. I think for a game that is drastically relying on game created narrative then they need more events to sustain such a thing. I.E. better indicators of births, more prominent bloodline traits, a better emphasis on the importance of a regent ect.

I feel relics could hold a big key to it. It only gains xp when the character who holds it dies, and perhaps all the important traits effect how the relic levels (if a character with the bear strength trait wields it the relic will now give the ancestors a passive bonus strength.) (or a character with young at heart reduces aging) you can even have the negative traits of a character become imbued as a positive on teh weapon (feeble heroes would imbue the relic with an enfeebling strike) or maybe abilities (if a caberjack had alchemist sub class then the caber is now imbued with poison.)

Then during the final battle as each generation takes up arms they pass the relic to the next ancestor with its full power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I heavily agree with the notion that the game goes by too quickly. I get don't get enough missions with my heroes to get attached to them. And if I'm not attached to them, why should I care about their children. Plus with the game going so quickly, it's way too hard to put a veteran in as a regent. I've only had two or three missions with them by the time their almost out of the child bearing years. So the next regent choice is always just the youngest child that has the best genes.

Making the game go by so quickly really reinforces the idea that everyone is a baby farm and characters are judged by their genes. I don't like that. I want storylines. I want history with my guys. I want to remember how much of a bad ass Rogar was when his grandson is taking his first steps into battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with most of this, especially with reducing the birthrate, so I'm just going to comment on the things I disagree with:

-Nerfing Cradles was suggested, but I think they are fine where they are. They just come as a surprise because they are the first hard hitting enemy in the game. They have 58 hp, they are meant to be imposing.

-Buffing hunters was suggested. I thought that would be a mistake and sounded like it would make them too much like alchemists anyway.

-changing the age to become a regent would definately cause some problems. Setting the minimum age too high would create long gaps in the keep where having kids isn't possible, and that would make the game significanty harder. It would be a long process to adjust the game for everything that change would cause.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Quite like this, it would increase that tension between keeping someone on the battlefield and retiring them for children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Quite like this, it would increase that tension between keeping someone on the battlefield and retiring them for children.

Maybe 3 levels of XP passing down, which is tied to going on missions? As in, you get some sort of XP penalty if you've been in no missions, normal XP if you've been in one, and a slight bump if you've been in 2+ missions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Quite like this, it would increase that tension between keeping someone on the battlefield and retiring them for children.

Maybe 3 levels of XP passing down, which is tied to going on missions? As in, you get some sort of XP penalty if you've been in no missions, normal XP if you've been in one, and a slight bump if you've been in 2+ missions.

Mm. It could be handled in statuses (the buffs/debuffs at the bottom of the character, after traits):

Green (no battles): 20% reduction in passed on XP

Battle-hardened (3 battles): 20% increase in passed on XP

Or something. I -really- like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with most of these but I have an issue with the birthrate, every time I play the game I really struggle to keep my heroes alive and I'm not getting an influx of heroes fast enough at the rate the old heroes die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Quite like this, it would increase that tension between keeping someone on the battlefield and retiring them for children.

Maybe 3 levels of XP passing down, which is tied to going on missions? As in, you get some sort of XP penalty if you've been in no missions, normal XP if you've been in one, and a slight bump if you've been in 2+ missions.

Mm. It could be handled in statuses (the buffs/debuffs at the bottom of the character, after traits):

Green (no battles): 20% reduction in passed on XP

Battle-hardened (3 battles): 20% increase in passed on XP

Or something. I -really- like this.

I'd dig this.

Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

That's a nice straightforward approach, and I'd definitely be interested to see how it'd play in practice. The inability to eject a regent might be an issue though, since you're removing the heir from combat based on the game's schedule rather than your own. (Barring Keep Mission fatalities/suicides.)

I've also been bouncing ideas around in my head for a dedicated subsystem that would be a more elaborate means to this end. Based loosely on a post by nazareadain a long while back (LINK), the core is giving heroes and houses specific goals within the overarching "kill stuff, make babies" loop.

The big change is that Bloodlines themselves would have a discrete level (Minor/Major/Mythic?) similar to our individual Heroes. That level affects (at the very least), the maximum level a Trainee can graduate at. However, houses don't level up via basic combat experience; instead, they need to acquire Glory.

Each Trainee, upon graduating, would automatically be assigned a single personal Goal - essentially a character-specific achievement. That might take the form of: fight in 6 battles, kill 5 Cradles, raise 10 children, stun 4 units at once, kill 10 units with bees, defend a Keep/Guild/Crucible, complete a certain category of events, win a battle using no other families, or similar. If the character completes the Goal, (A) they receive a new positive Trait/Personality or remove a single negative one, and (B) their Bloodline is awarded Glory, progressing it closer to the next Bloodline level.

Heroes who earned Glory for their houses would be memorialized in their family's Keep (either as statues in the throne room or in a dedicated Crypt screen), and would receive a more detailed readout describing their exploits. These Glorious heroes are also the ones that would be relevant during the final battle, rather than it strictly using lineage.

It's certainly non-trivial from a scope perspective, but I think it'd do a good job of giving us more discrete moments of historical significance in the timeline & our family trees. And since it includes a hard cap on Trainee level, it means your Heroes need to actually display some swagger to net you long-term progress, rather than simply gaming Crucibles and the like.

For a slightly simpler approach, you could also assign the Goals to the Bloodline directly rather than the character, and simply bestow Glory on whichever hero happens to be the first one to achieve it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Quite like this, it would increase that tension between keeping someone on the battlefield and retiring them for children.

Maybe 3 levels of XP passing down, which is tied to going on missions? As in, you get some sort of XP penalty if you've been in no missions, normal XP if you've been in one, and a slight bump if you've been in 2+ missions.

Mm. It could be handled in statuses (the buffs/debuffs at the bottom of the character, after traits):

Green (no battles): 20% reduction in passed on XP

Battle-hardened (3 battles): 20% increase in passed on XP

Or something. I -really- like this.

Makes sense. Every hero starts at level 1 or 2 because there was no war, so each generation gradually became less good.

Some adjustment would need to be made then, in order to ensure that the Regents meet their battle requirement when necessary like :

=> a new reasearch to "Hunt for cadence", to find a quick battle before appointing someone regent.

=> allowing a regent or partner to join a battle on his territory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Quite like this, it would increase that tension between keeping someone on the battlefield and retiring them for children.

Maybe 3 levels of XP passing down, which is tied to going on missions? As in, you get some sort of XP penalty if you've been in no missions, normal XP if you've been in one, and a slight bump if you've been in 2+ missions.

Mm. It could be handled in statuses (the buffs/debuffs at the bottom of the character, after traits):

Green (no battles): 20% reduction in passed on XP

Battle-hardened (3 battles): 20% increase in passed on XP

Or something. I -really- like this.

Makes sense. Every hero starts at level 1 or 2 because there was no war, so each generation gradually became less good.

Some adjustment would need to be made then, in order to ensure that the Regents meet their battle requirement when necessary like :

=> a new reasearch to "Hunt for cadence", to find a quick battle before appointing someone regent.

=> allowing a regent or partner to join a battle on his territory.

I feel like those safety nets wouldn't be needed (though I do kinda like the idea that a regent can fight on home territory). I feel like appointing a regent who has never been in a fight should always feel like a genuine penalty, and that the choice of when to retire that hero (do I wait to give her one more fight, or do I retire now and have more chance of kids in the shorter term?) should feel weighty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are some great ideas here.

The Green and Battlehardened traits would be a great addition. Giving you a reason to have a hero fight some battles before putting them in the keep.

Regents being able to fight in their home territory would give them a greater sense of belonging in the world and give them more personality.

I like the idea of a house having its own levels that would help regulate hero power creep within the game. Maybe we could connect the relic to it somehow?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

Quite like this, it would increase that tension between keeping someone on the battlefield and retiring them for children.

Maybe 3 levels of XP passing down, which is tied to going on missions? As in, you get some sort of XP penalty if you've been in no missions, normal XP if you've been in one, and a slight bump if you've been in 2+ missions.

Mm. It could be handled in statuses (the buffs/debuffs at the bottom of the character, after traits):

Green (no battles): 20% reduction in passed on XP

Battle-hardened (3 battles): 20% increase in passed on XP

Or something. I -really- like this.

That's actuattly really simple, but elegant solution that works with the current systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One suggestion for encouraging, but not requiring regents to be battlehardened would be to have the amount of xp transferred be impacted by the number of battles (or kills?) they had when retired. They're better at training because they lived it!

That's a nice straightforward approach, and I'd definitely be interested to see how it'd play in practice. The inability to eject a regent might be an issue though, since you're removing the heir from combat based on the game's schedule rather than your own. (Barring Keep Mission fatalities/suicides.)

I've also been bouncing ideas around in my head for a dedicated subsystem that would be a more elaborate means to this end. Based loosely on a post by nazareadain a long while back (LINK), the core is giving heroes and houses specific goals within the overarching "kill stuff, make babies" loop.

The big change is that Bloodlines themselves would have a discrete level (Minor/Major/Mythic?) similar to our individual Heroes. That level affects (at the very least), the maximum level a Trainee can graduate at. However, houses don't level up via basic combat experience; instead, they need to acquire Glory.

Each Trainee, upon graduating, would automatically be assigned a single personal Goal - essentially a character-specific achievement. That might take the form of: fight in 6 battles, kill 5 Cradles, raise 10 children, stun 4 units at once, kill 10 units with bees, defend a Keep/Guild/Crucible, complete a certain category of events, win a battle using no other families, or similar. If the character completes the Goal, (A) they receive a new positive Trait/Personality or remove a single negative one, and (B) their Bloodline is awarded Glory, progressing it closer to the next Bloodline level.

Heroes who earned Glory for their houses would be memorialized in their family's Keep (either as statues in the throne room or in a dedicated Crypt screen), and would receive a more detailed readout describing their exploits. These Glorious heroes are also the ones that would be relevant during the final battle, rather than it strictly using lineage.

It's certainly non-trivial from a scope perspective, but I think it'd do a good job of giving us more discrete moments of historical significance in the timeline & our family trees. And since it includes a hard cap on Trainee level, it means your Heroes need to actually display some swagger to net you long-term progress, rather than simply gaming Crucibles and the like.

For a slightly simpler approach, you could also assign the Goals to the Bloodline directly rather than the character, and simply bestow Glory on whichever hero happens to be the first one to achieve it.

I know I'm new here, but this kinda feels like a set of ideas for the "expansion pile".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...