Jump to content
Double Fine Action Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Acheron

Patch .86 - Trainees to level 10 before year 80 - Exploiting Parent XP

Recommended Posts

[EDIT: I edited this to show how it is possible to use this strategy after patch .86, including all the nerfs to buildings]

A while back I made a thread about a strategy to get trainees to level 10 before year 150. It was theoretical at first, but then I playtested it and got my first level 10 trainee in year 122. The strategy primarily involved XP farming (give all kills to one hero) and building lots of crucibles (Standards in crucibles give 1/3 of their XP to trainees over 15 years).

zdesert recently made a cool thread tracking info about how the game works. One thing he discovered is how parents XP passes down to kids: basically, trainees end up with the same XP as the highest level parent.

I think giving so much XP and focusing solely on one parent is a bad idea, too open to min/maxing, and I'm going to try and illustrate a strategy exploiting it to create level 10 trainees before year 80. Again, this will be theoretical at first but I'll playtest it out at some point to prove it (unless someone else wants to beat me to it). The point is to show that it's possible to max out in the early game exploiting this rule, without even building many crucibles.

----

This is sort of densely packed info, so I apologize if it's tough to read:

Step 1: In the opening battle, pick the highest XP hero (usually 500XP ish) and give her all the kills. She should now be around 1250XP.

Step 2: After the battle, retire two other young heroes to Keep 1 and build Keep 2. I won't talk about Keep 1 again, but your general strategy is to keep it staffed with the youngest and most bountiful heroes you can.

Step 3: After Keep 2 is finished, leave it vacant until you get your next battle. During that battle, bring back your high level hero and XP farm to her again. Now she should be around 3500 XP.

Step 4: It is now year 10. Retire your 3500 XP hero into Keep 2 (building bonus if possible) and give her a random partner. Immediately adopt a baby into that keep.

Step 5: It is now year 13. Your next research projects are to build Keep 3 and leave it vacant for now, then build two crucibles, and leave them vacant as well. That will take 10.88 + 12.75 + 25.5 years, taking you to year 62-63. Once the first adopted baby grows up (year 28), he is at 3500 XP and is your new XP black hole. Take him to every battle and give all the kills to him. I will not talk about Keep 2 again, but your general strategy is the same as Keep 1: retire the youngest and most bountiful heroes you can into it to keep the line going.

Step 6: Around year 63, Keep 3 and two crucibles should be built. Your XP hero should have been in around 4 battles and averaged roughly 2000 XP per battle, bringing him to around 11500 XP. Retire him to Keep 3 right after his third battle (Like I said, I think it should be around year 63), and marry him to a random hero (preferably bountiful). He is now about 50 years old. Adopt a baby.

Step 7: Before you start the timeline again, retire your two highest level heroes to the two vacant crucibles. These are likely children raised in Keep 2 (hopefully at least two natural babies were born). If you've brought them along on missions, they should have gotten mission XP and have at least 7500 XP between the both of them, giving at least 2500 XP to trainees, for a grand total of 11500 + 2500 = 14,000 XP (level 10) to your first trainee in year 78.

Step 8: As I said, your regent is 50 when you retire him, so he's not fertile and likely won't be around to fully train new kids. The way to solve this is to adopt several kids in rapid succession (3-4), varying boy girl to keep research low. Once the regent dies of old age, immediately appoint the oldest kid (who should be level 10 by then) as regent and have him continue training all the rest so they all end up at level 10. You now have a level 10 regent and 2-3 level 10 heroes soon afterwards for battles, new regents, appointment as standards, etc. At this point, you should be able to perpetuate level 10 no problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow.

I've been following these threads (and also playing) and I thought something seemed off. If I recall, the original idea was that children would come out of training with less xp than the parents, so even if the parent was level 10, for example, the children would only be level 8 (or something like this). I noticed that this didn't seem to be the case. I have to say that I thought this was a really good way to do things because it would also mean there would be periods where the battles had an uptick in difficulty due to the oscillation in hero level.

As it is now . . . wow, that clearly is too powerful!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the idea is to make XP levels a bit less important and equipment/research/other factors a bit more important, judging from what they have been saying lately.

It always seemed a bit weird to me that stat increases have SUCH an impact on everything, way more than anything else, because I think it would feel more natural if progression was mainly experienced through learning more powerful techniques and researching more powerful technologies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the idea is to make XP levels a bit less important and equipment/research/other factors a bit more important, judging from what they have been saying lately.

It always seemed a bit weird to me that stat increases have SUCH an impact on everything, way more than anything else, because I think it would feel more natural if progression was mainly experienced through learning more powerful techniques and researching more powerful technologies.

Someone has said this I think, but XCOM had a pretty elegant and easy to understand system. Research was primarily about getting you better weapons, which gives you increased damage. Levels were primarily about getting you better accuracy and more abilities, so that you could use the weapons more effectively. Focusing on leveling soldiers without research leaves you with pretty low damage potential, while only researching and keeping rookies means you've got lots of damage potential but low accuracy. There was no real dichotomy in XCOM, however, since research and experience operated in a much more parallel fashion than they do in Massive Chalice.

Right now the major way to increase damage in Massive Chalice is through relics, which are acquired through gaining XP in battle, the same way you level up your heroes. Accuracy is also increased through leveling heroes. The strategy I just explained will likely get you at least 2 relics by year 100, with level 10 trainees. High damage, high accuracy. Not much need for research.

I wonder what they will do to break this system. They might nerf damage considerably and have damage buffs through research, but they probably don't want to change the relic system too much, which means that it's still possible to get high damage without research. I suppose they could nerf accuracy level progression and tie that to training as well, although they don't want to do that too much either or the beginning game will be too frustrating (unless pawn evasion starts low and scales regularly). Maybe the best solution would be to allow for Cadence relics and make them significantly better than normal relics, forcing the player to focus on research early on in order to start creating the true damage dealers.

Either way, this strategy is a problem because with the way training works now, you don't have to worry about XP at all once you have some level 10 heroes, because you can lock in level 10 for all future trainees by retiring a couple of level 10 standards. If you get XP out of the way so early in the game, you can then spend all your time researching the training stuff before the pawns really start to scale up. I mean think about it, this strategy gives you 50 years to research whatever you want before advanced pawns emerge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either way, this strategy is a problem because with the way training works now, you don't have to worry about XP at all once you have some level 10 heroes, because you can lock in level 10 for all future trainees by retiring a couple of level 10 standards. If you get XP out of the way so early in the game, you can then spend all your time researching the training stuff before the pawns really start to scale up. I mean think about it, this strategy gives you 50 years to research whatever you want before advanced pawns emerge.

Yes. The trouble with this, I feel, is that it makes the XP curve a bit... anticlimactic. If you're all leveled up to 10 early on, then you've already discovered everything there is to discover about hero abilities only a 3rd into the game. When I played through a game with a bit more of a standard XP curve (All level 10 by 250, which still feels a -leeeeettle- soon) it was nice because it really felt like a game changer when I finally started unlocking stuff like Fertilizer or Kill Rage and so forth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just bumping this because I think patch .86 makes this strategy even more dominant, since crucibles have been nerfed much more than keeps.

Has anyone noticed if there was a nerf to parent XP? I didn't see it in Brad's notes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't see anything about the parent xp or the fertility rates. Both things that I think need a lot of tweaking. But I expect that simply was not the current priority. It'll be interesting to see what changes come down in the next patch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What this patch does, is reduce the population growthrate in the early game by slowing down keep production, crucible production and sagewright effectiveness. (and by extension, the bábè pro-duc-tion)It's already a part of the solution. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I'm having trouble following with the strategy is, how many different bloodlines do you end up as regents in keeps? It looks like you end up with most of your keeps belonging to the same bloodline (though I could be missing something). Obviously adoption creates enough genetic space that you can probably marry within the same family, but don't you end up with a bunch of heroes from only one class? Granted, you could probably beat the game easily with a uniform party of level 10 heroes, but it's nice to have some variety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What this patch does, is reduce the population growthrate in the early game by slowing down keep production, crucible production and sagewright effectiveness. (and by extension, the bábè pro-duc-tion)It's already a part of the solution. :)

I just edited the strategy to show how, after Patch .86, the situation is just as bad as ever. Level 10s by year 78, basically able to perpetuate indefinitely after that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One thing I'm having trouble following with the strategy is, how many different bloodlines do you end up as regents in keeps? It looks like you end up with most of your keeps belonging to the same bloodline (though I could be missing something). Obviously adoption creates enough genetic space that you can probably marry within the same family, but don't you end up with a bunch of heroes from only one class? Granted, you could probably beat the game easily with a uniform party of level 10 heroes, but it's nice to have some variety.

Nope, you are correct, same bloodline. As you say, adoption gets you through the first 78 years. Maybe I should edit this into Step 9 or something, but the next step is to occasionally recruit heroes to avoid incest problems. They are all level 1, but it doesn't matter, because you'll have level 10 regents who bring all kids to level 10 regardless of having a level 1 partner. It's a dirty exploit, but that's the point.

I agree with you, having one bloodline will be boring for some people (I recommend hunters for their early game appeal). But from a pure gameplay point of view, it's an absolute benefit because you can share relics easily among the houses. Also, the strategy only involves 3 keeps and 2 crucibles. That leaves 5 additional buildings, so feel free to build in new bloodlines by recruiting level 1 heroes, make the new class you want into a regent, and then have one of your level 10 heroes be a partner, so you automatically have level 10 caberjacks/alchemist houses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also with the sponge stone item and 2nd tier caberjack armor plus the knockback trait caberjacks are immune to seeds (seeds do 1 dmg and are knocked back giving the caberjack the hit point back). Add a cradle into the mix to produce seeds and the caberjack can gain a lot of levels in a single battle. Especially if you pick a mission w/ x2 exp for each kill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely the easiest solution would be to give out XP based on proportional damage, rather than on kills.

That way it's harder simply to line up kills for a particular player,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Surely the easiest solution would be to give out XP based on proportional damage, rather than on kills.

That way it's harder simply to line up kills for a particular player,

I think that's certainly a good idea, but I disagree that it solves the problem and think the only solution is to stop the way parent XP works. Or I guess nerf stealth. With hunters, I can stealth my way into solo kills (painstakingly). It's not so bad if you only have to do it for 6 battles, which is all that is required for this strategy (there is one additional battle in there when your last XP farm hero is being trained, but you don't have to worry about farming for that battle).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Surely the easiest solution would be to give out XP based on proportional damage, rather than on kills.

That way it's harder simply to line up kills for a particular player,

In fire emblem, each hit would give XP.

Maybe XP point should be awarded by damage done each hit? Does it makes sense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Surely the easiest solution would be to give out XP based on proportional damage, rather than on kills.

That way it's harder simply to line up kills for a particular player,

In fire emblem, each hit would give XP.

Maybe XP point should be awarded by damage done each hit? Does it makes sense?

Well.... in the fire-emblem system, the large xp-chunk always goes to the last-hitter, and everyone gets a sliver of xp on a successful hit. Massive chalice is way less about the leveling in battle than fire emblem, though.

I think Last-hitting should matter more than the damage dealt, because sometimes you're going to want to level the characters that deal less damage (oddly enough).

And saying that proportional Xp-distribution would help stop the funnelling of XP is... kinda the opposite of what would happen. The experience would naturally accumulate to the characters that deal the most damage, and evening out a team would become more difficult. It would also be another aspect where the control is taken away from the player. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And saying that proportional Xp-distribution would help stop the funnelling of XP is... kinda the opposite of what would happen. The experience would naturally accumulate to the characters that deal the most damage, and evening out a team would become more difficult. It would also be another aspect where the control is taken away from the player. :(

Agreed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a combination of

* Lower the XP for kills

* Raise the XP for simply completing a mission

And various other things would fix this.

That said, I have to say I'm not THAT bothered by this XP expoit. Half the time it just sounds like a boring way to play, and if someone wants to do something boring to win then... eh. And half the time it sounds like a challenge in itself. In the early game I'm usually just trying to keep people alive, if I was also thinking about who has to deliver the kills, I think I'd be making life hard for myself. So even knowing that this strategy exists, I doubt I'd actually do it. It sounds like kind of a pain. And then boring, later.

I agree that it should probably be addressed somehow, but I definitely think it's more important to fix the balance between building and equipment and etc first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think a combination of

* Lower the XP for kills

* Raise the XP for simply completing a mission

What about no XP for kills.

Kills would influence XP bonus given to children and chance to get a title/relic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cool someone useing my info!!

i am going to update that thread soon. had a few false starts, and more targeted runs i havent recorded/posted. just started a new spreadsheet for this patch and hoping i can get some late game info.

that said i see 3 problems to your strategy

1: if your lvl 10 regent is 50 years old, he may die before imparting all his xp- when parent dies xp stops flowing to the kid.

2: i haven't tested the partner xp past lvl 5-6 ish. there may be a max rate of xp transfer per parent. that would mean that higher lvls would require two parents to reliably train (just speculation, i never recorded info that late game)

3: you will have to care for that xp hero so hard lol, that is play at a lvl i cant achieve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cool someone useing my info!!

i am going to update that thread soon. had a few false starts, and more targeted runs i havent recorded/posted. just started a new spreadsheet for this patch and hoping i can get some late game info.

that said i see 3 problems to your strategy

1: if your lvl 10 regent is 50 years old, he may die before imparting all his xp- when parent dies xp stops flowing to the kid.

2: i haven't tested the partner xp past lvl 5-6 ish. there may be a max rate of xp transfer per parent. that would mean that higher lvls would require two parents to reliably train (just speculation, i never recorded info that late game)

3: you will have to care for that xp hero so hard lol, that is play at a lvl i cant achieve

Good points, and thanks for the data!

(1) as I explain, you retire the oldest kid once the regent dies. Even if kid 1 is only 12 or 13 at that time, he should have enough XP from dad +standards that the remaining kids will get to level 10.

(2) good point, we need more data!

(3) honestly with stealth and hunters it's not that hard. I don't even save scum to do it. I agree with you/kestrel that it's a bit boring, but like I said, it's only 6 battes (including the opening one). After year 80-100 you can create maxed out alchemist and caber jack houses and focus on cool tactical strategies without worrying about XP anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(3) honestly with stealth and hunters it’s not that hard. I don’t even save scum to do it. I agree with you/kestrel that it’s a bit boring, but like I said, it’s only 6 battes (including the opening one). After year 80-100 you can create maxed out alchemist and caber jack houses and focus on cool tactical strategies without worrying about XP anymore.

This may be just my opinion, and I've never experienced a party wipe... but I don't think you really need to use this exploit to pass the early game, or even to make the combat interesting.

Sure, I've been harping on the game for the ammount of stunning I've had to do, but facing superior Bulawrks and wrinklers with a median lvl3 crew has been interesting. Especially with caberjacks, I have had to balance the stuns and the charge positioning just right, keep my squad spread out, worry about the exp distribution and keeping my squad alive. The increased caberjack options in the patch have genuenly made the early game battles more engaging.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree it's totally not necessary. The point of this thread is to show how the game can be utterly broken fairly easily, and to illuminate the problem so brad can figure out how/if he wants to fix it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...