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KestrelPi

Have hunters been over-nerfed?

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Since the latest patch and early access release, I've seen more than one person say they don't rate hunters very much, they're not doing enough damage or whatever.

Has anyone here had a chance to play with hunters on .85 from the start? How do you feel about their damage output now. I know that when I played with hunters after the first nerf, I was finding that at around level 6 they were doing much less damage than their similarly leveled friends, unless they had a relic equipped. Has it gone too far now, or do you think it's about right?

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I never got to play the before .85, so I can't say.

However, I'm finding their other abilities, like the ability to stealth anywhere with veil armour and 11 or 14 range attack, to be insanely overpowered.

Ran 5x hunters the whole game, never lost a hero in battle, never lost a battle (except first attempt to beat the final battle, won on the 2nd attempt).

I have 6 level 10 relics (made 5 of them in the last 60-70 years).

The fact that the regular crossbow cannot kill an enemy unit is actually an advantage! It makes it much easier to feed kills into a hero (and get a hero a relic).

Once I knew relics were in the game, I was able to generate a relic every single battle by feeding like 8-13 kills into a level 7-9 hunter.

However, I think hunters are still OP for the simple fact that I was able to win losing only 1 hero (in the final battle) by getting just nothing but Hunters.

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I find Hunters to be really good in the early game, as Follow Up + Put Them Down can take care of most enemies you encounter. Later game, I find they shift to a scouting/support role as Cadence get stronger and can't be put down so easily. I still find them useful for stealthing around, using Flarrow, and finishing off enemies, while Caberjacks and Alchemists get strong enough to drop enemies themselves.

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However, I think hunters are still OP for the simple fact that I was able to win losing only 1 hero (in the final battle) by getting just nothing but Hunters.

Not sure that says too much, as I was able to win losing nobody, using 3 caberjacks and 2 hunters (and caberjacks did most of the work)

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I find myself running 1-2 Hunters at all times. With Veil Armor, Bone Barb bows. I also went for 'Put them down' ability. They become almost what they were before the nerf, slightly less damage overall. (Follow-up)

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To me the nerf seems about right. They still seem overpowered too quickly in the mid to late game, but I think this has more to do with the experience gain issues than anything. The flarrow is still too powerful too because of the ability to essentially make defenseless a large group of enemies.

I'm finding that the early game gives me a good sense of how hunters are meant to be used: caberjacks are the heavy hitters and the hunters are the scouts used to plan attacks and whittle away at the strength of the enemy. Caberjacks wade in and take the most risk--they take the most damage, risk experience loss, and aging--and so also get the most experience. Hunters need to hang back and set up the enemies to be killed and so get a lower amount of experience (with followup and shooting ruptures (and a little later seeds) being the main way to get experience). Early game, hunters seem just right--its when they level too fast and get veil armor that it all goes off the rails. Of course, now caberjacks (as fun as they are to play) seem a little too strong--their stun is just too good. I consistently stun multiple enemies at once and with two caberjacks I can knockout the whole current crop of enemies and leave them to be whittled down by the rest of the team. With three caberjacks, battles are over in no time. All I need hunters for is making sure I don't charge too many enemies! I still have no idea what to use alchemists for.

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However, I think hunters are still OP for the simple fact that I was able to win losing only 1 hero (in the final battle) by getting just nothing but Hunters.

Not sure that says too much, as I was able to win losing nobody, using 3 caberjacks and 2 hunters (and caberjacks did most of the work)

I meant through the whole campaign.

Early on, I choose the best heroes I had for Regents, and ended up with 3 hunter house and 1 alchemist house.

I experimented with using alchemists early on (1 or 2), but after the first 50 turns, my armies were nothing but 5x Hunters.

i think there's a bit of an issue when you can go for nothing but a single class of units, and breeze through the game.

Alchemists have 2 useful abilities:

Flasks: AoE attack, where:

- they can throw their flasks over rocks and such, hitting the enemy on the other side even if you don't see them.

- they got a double throw ability early on that lets them throw 2 flasks in 1 turn.

Can equip 2 accessories: double healing and such is useful!

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Alchemists are for dealing with densely packed groups of enemies (Caberjacks aren't great at that until Kill Rush and Hunters have to kill one enemy at a time). They're also great against Bulwarks, as The Acid Solution and Bees in a Bottle both bypass Shell Defense. Free Throw makes them good at dishing out a lot of damage (even without relics) at short notice, whether that's softening up a bunch of enemies or piling it on one guy. Also, the fact that they can lob flasks over LoS-blocking obstacles is amazing on certain maps, especially in conjunction with stealthy Hunters scouting. My Alchemists can often soften up or destroy enemies before they're even aware of my heroes, and that combos great with just lobbing a single flask and letting the acid finish them.

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@Nelyo: I definitely see the benefit of the Alchemists once they start getting their later abilities, but the Hunter and Caberjacks seem to have clearly defined areas immediately and the Alchemists . . . just don't. Their AOE abilities are useful once there are more and more enemies, but early on they don't bunch!

Although, now that I set my mind to it, with an eye towards the Alchemist's later abilities, I think I'm getting it:

Caberjack: control enemy positioning and ability to attack

Hunter: weakens enemies and gives perspective to identify best avenues for attack

Alchemist: alter the battleground and create debuffs on the enemy, changing their behavior.

Of course, I don't see this early in the game--they are really just big damage dealers who can't aim well. But once bottle of bees, fertilizer flasks, and acid solution are in place, they allow you to mold the map itself (pillar pitcher does the same thing).

Then again, maybe it's just playstyle!

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Playstyle & your POV coming into the game are definitely coloring your experience. My not fully grasping the strategy layer at first colored mine: In my first game (which I finally won last night) I ended up with 2 Alchemist houses and 1 each of Hunter and Caberjack—and because I realized my mistake late enough that I nearly didn't have any Caberjacks, their birthrates/generations were off; except during a weird Alchemist drought in the mid-200's all my teams had 2-3 Alchemists, and frequently either Hunters or Caberjacks.

So I learned, very quickly, how powerful/useful the Alchemists can be.

And I adapted my play style to include quite a bit of Cadence-herding.

If you can guess how the Cadence will behave on their turn (or later, when you have boomsticks... err... Cadence Cabers, and can reposition enemies with every caber hit) you can get them to bunch up, in throwing range, even in the early game. Additionally, I found Alchemists to be my strongest units, even for single enemies, during the mid-game—flasks easily deal more damage than any other weapon or ability until Caberjacks reach level 8+. Bring 3+ Alchemists on a Bulwarks mission (most of the time if you use Free Throw, even if they appear to Bone Shell, a 2nd flask will hit for full damage—though I suppose that may be a bug, rather than an analog of the Hunter's double shot), Bulwarks will give you little/no trouble. Flasks were consistently doing 2x-3x the damage of any other hit my heroes could dish out.

Re: Hunters, though... Ugh. What a useless mess. (I came in with the EA/$20-backer release, so I assume that's post-nerf.) Reasonably good in the early game, but just a terrible mishmash of capabilities. They have stealth, which makes them good scouts, but if you actually use that ability to send them scouting ahead, you just have to wait for the rest of your heroes to catch up before striking anyway—they're good at ranged attacks and not particularly high on HP, so it makes sense to have them stay back, shoot from afar, and not attract too much attention, not rush up front invisible and unleash an attack before their melee & short-range buddies catch up... So by mid-game I'd almost entirely stopped using their hidden movement abilities, and I only equipped the Veil armor once or twice, to see what it could do—what it did was get my hunters killed, by putting them up front when they ought to be in the back. (I can see how this problem could be mitigated by having 5 Hunters.)

What was worse was that, by end-game, the hunters couldn't shoot for ... well, they missed a lot. I blame a misleading stat system, where having 120%+ Accuracy somehow makes sense but gives 45%-70% chance of hitting endgame Cadence. I'm thinking now that I need to put Steady Handers on my level 10 Hunters with natural 125% Accuracy, just to hit anything. In the final battle I ended up with 2 Hunters, 1 Caberjack, and 2 Alchemists (due largely to the juggled generations) and by mid-battle wished I'd brought 4 Alchemists and a Caberjack, or 3 Alchemists and 2 Caberjacks, because my Hunters were missing 1/2 or more of their shots, and when they hit, it was for a fraction of the Advanced Cadence's HP—where my Caberjack could run around with his kill rage and take out 3 or 4 Cadence in a turn, and my Alchemists could take out 2-3 Cadence with a couple flasks. These were level 10 Hunters, one with a level 10 Relic, the other started with a level 6 relic (because after mid-game, Hunters don't naturally get kills, they just soften Cadence up for the other classes unless you're gaming the system) and they were hitting for 17-24 on a single (non-crit) shot. If they could hit at all.

tl;dr: I had a completely different experience with Hunters, and am considering not bothering to give them a keep in my next game, since they're poison during the end-game.

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I feel that Hunters did get hit a little hard with the nerf hammer in the last update. They sure didn't need any damage reduction, and maybe it's just me, but now my hunters seem to miss more often than not. I find them nearly useless now, about on the same level as the crap-tastic Alchemists!

My big question is, why did we get another Hunter-nerf update, and no help for the Alchemist, the class that really needs it?

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modernevil:

raises some good points.

Just a point though, I believe the dodge skill reduces accuracy (seems to be a flat accuracy - dodge). And wrinklers and seedlings have really high dodge (let's say 65, to reduce the base hunter HR to like 60%) while cradles, lapses, seem to have like 25-35 or so (easy to hit).

So from my experience, used en-masse, hunters are OP due to the fact that:

- if you got all hunters, it's fairly easy to breed for desired traits (Personality: young at heart, and patriotic. Trait: nimble is nice, but not required).

- you can force small-scale engagement on every map, and you can always veil your whole group if you need to.

- Since they don't kill enemies in 1 hit, it's easy to farm Relics: (my method was generally use 3 veiled hunters that would fire flare arrows to blind enemies so they can't attack, and then have 1 hunter weaken the target, and the other hunter get the kill until he gets a Heroic nickname)

- For keep defenses, you can just make your regent and partner invisible, and then they're safe (no need to rush towards them to save them).

- Even in the final battle, once they reach the +50% attack bonus they can basically kill everything in 1 hit.

Note: one weakness of hunters for the final battle is that the age-related dex bonus comes from Young (below 30?), whereas prime age gives Strength (which buffs Caberjacks).

It's hard to have Young heroes for the final battle.

On the other hand, Young at Heart always puts heroes at prime age.

Nonetheless, with Patriotic, young at heart, and Steady Handers, I had a 99% hit rate at worst, even on the 70 year old heroes.

Used in a mix group, they're terrible because:

- when alchemists and caberjacks can 1 shot enemies and hit multiple enemies at once, why would you want a unit that can only target a single enemy, and won't even kill it (unless they use the Follow-up skill, which is once every 4 turns, or manage to get kills, to get +5% damage boost per kill, for up to 50% extra damage).

- The only appeal of hunters in this case would be flare arrows (blind all enemies in a pretty wide radius for 1 turn, and light that area for 3 turns), and the ability to sense enemies behind cover.

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Hunters really are fine the way they are now.

In the early game they are right where they need to be and they will always have the advantage of having magnificent range and the ability to stealth. The ability to hit without getting hit is such a big advantage that I think it excuses their slightly lower late-game damage.

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Hunters being ranged gives a lot of advantages that other classes don't have. When you attack an enemy with a hunter, it's less likely for you to sight more enemies and get yourself in a harder situation. They can also switch targets easier and kite melee enemies, or be able to attack while hiding from a ranged enemy.

And all that would be fine, because hunters are there for assisting with damage, not one-shotting Cradles like Caberjacks might. However, hunters get some damage boosting skills early that lets them infringe on the Caberjacks' role and forces the other classes to play catch-up. I would prefer it if Put it Down was put deeper in the skill tree, maybe trading places with Hobbling Shot.

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Hunters being ranged gives a lot of advantages that other classes don't have. When you attack an enemy with a hunter, it's less likely for you to sight more enemies and get yourself in a harder situation. They can also switch targets easier and kite melee enemies, or be able to attack while hiding from a ranged enemy.

And all that would be fine, because hunters are there for assisting with damage, not one-shotting Cradles like Caberjacks might. However, hunters get some damage boosting skills early that lets them infringe on the Caberjacks' role and forces the other classes to play catch-up. I would prefer it if Put it Down was put deeper in the skill tree, maybe trading places with Hobbling Shot.

I always saw Caberjacks as intended to be more crowd control/tank class, than damage dealers. That's what their abilities, say, anyway (knockback skills, protective skills, prime target, etc). Only kill rage really makes sense as a damage dealing class, and that's level 10.

Hunters I see as scouting/damage which is kinda an odd combo, sure, but I think they're meant to be played like rogues, getting into a great position and then doing lots of damage in one go.

Alchemists are about versatility - mid-ranged, and then depending on which abilities and equipment you spec them out with, they can cause a lot of damage mayhem, or primarily be used in a support capacity, or a bit of a mixture.

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This isn't WoW, there doesn't need to be a "tank class" and a "DPS class."

I'm aware of what this game isn't, thank you very much!

I'm just saying, broadly speaking, where I view the strengths of the classes to be.

Let's look at the evidence, what skills do the classes have:

Hunters:

Basic: Stealth = Scouting

Level 2: Follow-up = Extra Damage

Level 4: Honed Hearing/put it down = Scouting or Extra Damage

Level 6: Flarrow / Hobbling Shot = Scouting (+debuff) or Debuff

Level 8: Dead Eye / Shoot 'n' Scoot Accuracy/Range or Extra mobility (arguably scouting)

Level 10: Chalk One up = Extra Damage.

So most of the hunter's skills are geared towards dealing more damage, or increasing mobility or scouting abilities.

Caberjacks:

Basic: Knockback = Crowd control

Level 2: Prime Target = Tanking AND Crowd control

Level 4: Fury/Rebound = Extra Damage or Crowd control

Level 6: Stun Slam / Charge = Crowd control or Mobility + Crowd control

Level 8: Stand Ground / Fortify = Tanking or Group Buff

Level 10: Kill Rage = Extra damage (but only on kills, so arguably a form of Crowd control)

So, that's Tank/Crowd control, and only one skill in the set which is purely about extra damage compared to 3 in the Hunter's set. And 4 skills which can be used to stun enemies.

Alchemist:

Basic: Throw Flask = Ranged attack

Level 2: Free Shot = Extra damage and/or mobility

Level 4: Acid Solution / Eagle Eye = Poison damage or Accuracy

Level 6: Extra Item Slot or Throw items = More choice or Group support

Level 8: Bees in a Bottle or Fertilizer = Area damage or Group evasion buff

Level 10: Mad Bomber = Extra flasks, etc.

So this one's a lot less clear than the others and that's because Alchemists can be built quite differently I think depending on the skills you emphasise. Someone with Acid, Extra Item, Bees might be damage/chaos focused, while someone with throw items and fertilizer will tend more towards support, so this is why I view alchemists as the flexible class.

So, I'm just going by what the skills tell us about the classes.

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Well I have to say that I suspect your desire to codify these as support/tank/dps will probably be a better discussion with the Hybrids in play.

I think the appeal for me so far on the tactical map is the flexibility of the Alchemist, and the clarity of the Caberjack ability trees. I'm still struggling to get Hunters to work, as I don't fully trust their hidden ability. But treating them like scouts, with the occasionally fortuitous positioning to take down an exploder or finish off a Cradle/Bulwark - plonking for 1 damage x 4 is surprisingly satisfying... the rarity of it's occurrence not withstanding. I think the problem with the Hunter's is that the 1. more difficult than they first appear to be, and 2. not always reliable for damage (this is partially do to their difficulty). If they were meant to be traditional support they'd have a net or a smoke bomb, possibly a trap they could deploy without breaking the Hidden status. I've kind of come to appreciate the choice to go with Hunters, they aren't Hunters of the cadance so much as Hunters trying to make do as warriors. It doesn't gel as well with the Caber and Alchemist yet because they have a nice zone of influence.

Caberjacks have: cc, dps=chain, tanking.

Alchemists have: dps=bomb, dps=acid, utility/support.

Hunters have: utility, dps=burst single target.

The Hunter without the piercing bow is the only one with clear single target dps limitations. Even Shoot 'n' Scoot doesn't let them have multiple targets in a turn. However, the mobility comes less from (all Hunters can are sprinters through ability choice) and more from the ability to Hide. They are guerrilla warriors, they don't function well as Snipers (XCOM) or even single target burst DPS Heroes (LoL). Their main ability is to finish off targets, or get a good advanced position. There was a suggestion in another forum that rather than double-up, or even as a second ability alongside double-up, a Hunter who hasn't moved gets to take an extra shot. I think this suggestion was in place to help make the Hunter into a sort of assassin character.

Is Chalk One Up providing a permanent damage boost? This might let a Lv 10 Hunter become an assassin, through sheer damage boost. I get the impression it was on a per-map basis? Maybe replace Put It Down with Chalk One Up on a p/map basis.

Basic: Stealth = Scouting

Level 2: Follow-up = Extra Damage

Level 4: Honed Hearing/Chalk One Up = Scouting or Stack-able Damage Buff

Level 6: Flarrow / Hobbling Shot = Scouting or De-buff

Level 8: Eagle Eye / Shoot ‘n’ Scoot = Accuracy or Scouting

Level 10: Dead Eye

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well i think this discussion is moot seeing how hybrids are comin in soon ish

the pure hunter has been nerfed, lost some of it's dps, lost some of it's relyability but is a really competant scout.

the hunter/caber-- there will be your single target damage hunter back in action and on steroids

the hunter/alchemist-- there is your hunter with multiple targets per turn and gaurentied hits

the pure hunter isnt a crowd control or a super dps hero and dosnt need to be. has the nerf enphasised scouting, utility and fragility? yes. and that is the nich of a pure hunter.

end of story.

P.S. they are still very strong

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I think "codifying" into whatever isn't quite what I'm trying to do here - I definitely don't think any of the classes are "pure" anything. But it's pretty clear to me that they are skewed in particular directions. They're definitely designed to be able to stand on their own.

Interestingly I think the latest patch very slightly lessens the stunning capabilities of the caberjack but it strengthens the tank side.

And the Alchemist changes definitely make it more of a choice between offence or support.

And I still think that (basic) hunters are very clearly designed for single target damage (let's stop calling it DPS, we're not playing real time) as their particular skew. Again: the mandatory level 2 and level 10 skills are both about dealing extra damage. That's gotta count for something. So when at level 10 they're doing noticeably less damage than the other two classes, despite all this, that feels odd to me.

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As someone who's still a greenhorn at the game, all I can say is: After having two of my alchemists accidentally murder two of my other precious, irreplaceable troops on the same turn, while my hunters have yet to cause any teamkills...

I like having the hunters around just 'cause they're safe and they can scout. Oh, being the best at killing Ruptures and Lapses, the two things I'm hating the most in the game so far. :-P

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As someone who's still a greenhorn at the game, all I can say is: After having two of my alchemists accidentally murder two of my other precious, irreplaceable troops on the same turn, while my hunters have yet to cause any teamkills...

I like having the hunters around just 'cause they're safe and they can scout. Oh, being the best at killing Ruptures and Lapses, the two things I'm hating the most in the game so far. :-P

Yeah, I know the feel. It's not a proper playthrough before the first Alchemist teamkill :P. (Srsly tho. They're good if you know how to maximise their accuracy)

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To say nothing of the first time you get a Bonebarb Crossbow teamkill. Or two at once...

I definitely found Hunters to feel underwhelming in my playthrough. I never got a relic (since I used Bonebarbs and didn't realize they can't become relics), and never got enough Hunters to breed for ideal traits. Consequently, I used 1x Hunter, 2x Alchemist, 2x Caberjack, which meant that whittling enemies down with the Hunter's pitiful damage wasn't really an option, and therefore the Hunter's contributions to fights felt extremely marginal with regards to damage (i.e. much less than 20%). On the other hand, their excellent scouting definitely made the other classes (who depend heavily on distance, position, enemy detection to move in for a kill without dying) much stronger.

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To say nothing of the first time you get a Bonebarb Crossbow teamkill. Or two at once...

I definitely found Hunters to feel underwhelming in my playthrough. I never got a relic (since I used Bonebarbs and didn't realize they can't become relics), and never got enough Hunters to breed for ideal traits. Consequently, I used 1x Hunter, 2x Alchemist, 2x Caberjack, which meant that whittling enemies down with the Hunter's pitiful damage wasn't really an option, and therefore the Hunter's contributions to fights felt extremely marginal with regards to damage (i.e. much less than 20%). On the other hand, their excellent scouting definitely made the other classes (who depend heavily on distance, position, enemy detection to move in for a kill without dying) much stronger.

It kinda makes sense for the bonebarb bows to do less damage than the regular bow, buuuut.... alchemists just do the AoE damage thing so much better, that I can't see why I would bother at the moment. This might change with the hybrids, though :)

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I used bonebarbs almost exclusively on my run pre-hunter-nerf (at 0.84) and at that point it still seemed totally viable at 10, but they still weren't as good as my caberjacks with ramjacks. Still, they were taking a lot of cadence out in that final battle, and often more than one at a time thanks to the bone barb. I suspect now it wouldn't work out so well.

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I think "codifying" into whatever isn't quite what I'm trying to do here - I definitely don't think any of the classes are "pure" anything. But it's pretty clear to me that they are skewed in particular directions. They're definitely designed to be able to stand on their own.

Interestingly I think the latest patch very slightly lessens the stunning capabilities of the caberjack but it strengthens the tank side.

And the Alchemist changes definitely make it more of a choice between offence or support.

And I still think that (basic) hunters are very clearly designed for single target damage (let's stop calling it DPS, we're not playing real time) as their particular skew. Again: the mandatory level 2 and level 10 skills are both about dealing extra damage. That's gotta count for something. So when at level 10 they're doing noticeably less damage than the other two classes, despite all this, that feels odd to me.

Well I've been calling it DPS only to be clear, and it's shorter than damage type/targeting ... :P

I actually think my post was saying that Hunters are pretty much scouts. They don't have pure damage abilities, they have one sometimes very useful single target execution depending on accuracy (explode-crabs*) but largely aren't meant to be assassins or stand still and launch arrows en masse into the ranks of the enemies (They ain't British bowmen). I wasn't a fan before of the Hunter, but using him primarily as a scout works okay. But given them a per map damage bonus gives them an edge getting over that small edge of damage. Now I make these suggestions to encourage the use of Hunters in the late game. There are two things I've been reading, but yet to experience. In the late game Hunters aren't very accurate, and in the late game Hunters don't do a lot of damage.

What was worse was that, by end-game, the hunters couldn’t shoot for ... well, they missed a lot. I blame a misleading stat system, where having 120%+ Accuracy somehow makes sense but gives 45%-70% chance of hitting endgame Cadence.

tl;dr: I had a completely different experience with Hunters, and am considering not bothering to give them a keep in my next game, since they're poison during the end-game.

This isn't WoW, there doesn't need to be a "tank class" and a "DPS class."

Vitruviansquid is right, but I'm not trying to make the Hunter into a pure damage dealer, I'm trying to imagine simple changes to ensure their early game viability - where I have problems - and having a late game accuracy & strength equal to the other classes - which is where everyone else has problems. Keeping the functionality of his scouting abilities, by making two changes, to create a choice in early emphasis that of a Scout - hearing, or a Hunter - chalk one up. Either way I think the end result here is more significant than "damage" versus "scout" its, a touch of the same flexibility you have in the other classes and late game viability.

*I haven't had much luck doubling up on a Lapses, they seem to survive with either a few hit points or you miss and it's a wasted action.

**I'm unclear if hybrids will have stealth, perhaps stealth becomes a choice, perhaps honed hearing gets replaced with stealth and it becomes a base hunter ability only.

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Indeed, -nobody- is saying there needs to be a "tank class" or a "damage class" or whatever. Just looking at what the skills 'say' about the classes.

What I pointed out earlier

Basic: Stealth = Scouting

Level 2: Follow-up = Extra Damage

Level 4: Honed Hearing/put it down = Scouting or Extra Damage

Level 6: Flarrow / Hobbling Shot = Scouting (+debuff) or Debuff

Level 8: Dead Eye / Shoot ‘n’ Scoot Accuracy/Range or Extra mobility (arguably scouting)

Level 10: Chalk One up = Extra Damage.

says Scouting + Extra Damage. It's hard to argue with, really.

This is 3 skills that grant extra damage, 2 of which must be chosen at that level, 4 scouting skills, only 1 which is mandatory to choose. That's a pretty good balance between damage and scouting, but it's worth pointing out that it's pretty possible to build a hunter with almost no real scouting skills except stealth, while your hunter will ALWAYS get 2 of those extra damage skills. (and no, they're not 'pure' damage abilities, they're dependent on other stuff, but they still form the basic function of allowing the hunter to do extra damage on their turn)

So if you nerf the damage a hunter does too much, you get rid of some of what was interesting about the class skills (the ability to do super heavy single-target damage under the right conditions). Right now it seems to be the case that by level 10 you need follow-up and chalk one up simply to get the hunter back to the level that other classes are managing on their regular, no-frills hits.

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Right now it seems to be the case that by level 10 you need follow-up and chalk one up simply to get the hunter back to the level that other classes are managing on their regular, no-frills hits.

Which is I think, where my suggestion to move one of the clearest damage boost abilities to much earlier in the ability tree.

I tossed in Eagle eye in the hole created by that abilities movement earlier in the tree as a late game response to the hidden calculations of accuracy occurring, which the user observes only as a marked decrease in late game Hunter accuracy, despite having > 100% accuracy, sometimes by as much as (from what I've read) > 150%. Making dead eye the late game ability reinforces the scout trend, and is a unique and thematically appropriate never bad final ability. I don't think much of the current skill tree's late game options because I have to really take it on faith that a low level Hunter is a better choice in the early to mid game than an Alchemist. The ability changes I suggested, make an earlier choice to go scout or damage clear. Currently to my experience only a Hunter with early accuracy bonuses is viable, because they can save my team mates with a last hit. But the early game low accuracy Hunter only makes sense as a scout. It feels forced.

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