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Simosso

Stun Slam

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I really like charge on my caberjacks (as do many others according to other topics). Sometimes I pick Stun Slam to check it out again, but it just doesn't feel worth it. While rocking a party of 5 caberjacks today, I began thinking about the double move + attack feature of Massive Chalice. It feels good and cinematic that you can charge the enemy, melee hitting them after a double move. The standard knock-back + stun ability of the caberjack is also a melee attack, making it able to use after a double move.

My thought was, to make stun slam and charge more of an even choice, you could make it so stun slam also works with a double move. This tackles the mobility issue of stun slam versus charge. It also feels cinematically cool as your caberjacks charge into the fray end slam their caber into the ground as a battle opening.

I feel that the only reason for it not being a double move at the moment, is because it doesn't actually target an enemy while using the skill. What do you guys think?

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I think stun slam is almost worthless at the moment. It doesn't have enough of an area effect to be useful in a lot of situations, and there are several other Caberjack powers which also stun, including the alternative Charge skill. Given that these powers are at least as likely to multi-stun enemies (when they are in a line, for example) but provide other benefits too, there seems to be no real advantage for picking Stun Slam.

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I think stun slam is almost worthless at the moment. It doesn't have enough of an area effect to be useful in a lot of situations, and there are several other Caberjack powers which also stun, including the alternative Charge skill. Given that these powers are at least as likely to multi-stun enemies (when they are in a line, for example) but provide other benefits too, there seems to be no real advantage for picking Stun Slam.

As I said, I totally agree. So I came up with an idea that might improve Stun Slam and I want to hear your thoughts. Maybe even increasing the area of the slam to 2 tiles around the unit instead of 1, atop of the added double move plus stun slam improvement (but this might be too good?).

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I posted elsewhere about changing the "stun slam" into a "leaping slam" to give it some flair and range. (It's like the alchemist flask throw, exept it uses both action points at once: first for the sprint, and then for the jump) Unfortunately, that would include animating new movements, so I know it probably won't happen. (it isn't even a new mechanic, so I doubt it would cut it in the expansion pile)

The increase in the area of effect is the most probable solution, because I think we can all agree that we would rather make the awesome ground pound move work than scrap it for a new skill. Maybe add a bit of a re-tooled lapse visual effect in, wait.... THAT'S IT! you take the Lapse explosion-knockback animation, recolor it, paste it on top of the slam animation and slap on a different sond effect! It's a Shockwave Slam! The Ground Pound! The Lapse effect has a 3 square range I think, and it can knock back objects and multiple foes!

....

...

..

Ok, so I thought about it a little bit, and it does kinda feel like it would be the most fantasy-y move in the game. Not very realistic, and kinda messes with the setting, but it is SO cool though! ...And obviously it's essentially creating a new animation and the new skill, which kinda sorta isn't happening at this stage, as I've been telling everyone else, so just increasing the range of stun slam is easier and replacing it with a passive skill is more probable, but... gah, I just love the idea!

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Honestly I think charge needs to come forward, preferably to the level 2 unlock position. Knockback could be replaced, because charge does the same thing but is more interesting.

Only then can I think clearly about what to do with Stun Slam. But, initial thoughts:

I think even with more mobility, Stun slam is just a bit weird now, it's another stunning ability and there are already plenty of ways to stun the enemy. My inclination is to lose it. Replace it at level 6 with two abilities that strengthen the 'tank' side of the class - perhaps one that allows you to take a hit for an adjacent hero, and another that which is a straight increase to defense or something else.

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But charge doesn't do the same thing. You cannot charge behind the enemy and knock it backwards torwards your crew, nor can you take two moves to get into position to angle your charge right. Knockback is an exellent basic skill, because it functions just like a basic melee-attack, but differently.

I do agree that Stun slam is kinda useless right now, but I don't like dropping charge down to an early-game skill.

Charge is a very powerful skill, but that is precisely why it's better as a later unlock. I know you've been here longer (and longer and longer) than I have and have a better grip on the game's developement, but on this, we disagree.

Plus, Shokwave Slam, man! Now I'm exited about the idea, if it's feasible... (maybe it's feasible? I dunno...)

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But charge doesn't do the same thing. You cannot charge behind the enemy and knock it backwards torwards your crew, nor can you take two moves to get into position to angle your charge right. I do agree that Stun slam is kinda useless right now, but I don't like dropping charge down to an early-game skill.

Charge is a very powerful skill, but that is precisely why it's better as a later unlock. I know you've been here longer (and longer and longer) than I have and have a better grip on the game's developement, but on this, we disagree.

Plus, Shokwave Slam, man! Now I'm exited about the idea, if it's feasible... (maybe it's feasible? I dunno...)

Actually I think charge does do almost the same thing. In that as long as you're quite close to an enemy you can reposition yourself before charging it (including from behind). I think the only difference is current knockback can be used from in the white (2 action point) area so you can move closer to nearby enemies to do a knockback. Kinda difficult to explain without diagrams, but essentially what I mean is:

Knockback: At short range, you can knockback from any angle. At medium range you can knockback at any angle as long as you can move to it.

Charge: At short range, you can knockback from any angle (by moving then activating charge). At medium - long range, you can knockback but only in the direction you are running in.

It's different, but not that much. It's a trade-off (longer range, in exchange for precision at greater distances), but I'd argue an interesting one.

Maybe there's something that can be done to save stun slam, but right now I can't think of anything that would make it a good alternative to Charge. (I like shockwave slam, but I don't think I'd want to choose it over charge, which feels like an almost-necessary skill for Caberjacks right now)

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But charge doesn't do the same thing. You cannot charge behind the enemy and knock it backwards torwards your crew, nor can you take two moves to get into position to angle your charge right. Knockback is an exellent basic skill, because it functions just like a basic melee-attack, but differently.

I do agree that Stun slam is kinda useless right now, but I don't like dropping charge down to an early-game skill.

Charge is a very powerful skill, but that is precisely why it's better as a later unlock. I know you've been here longer (and longer and longer) than I have and have a better grip on the game's developement, but on this, we disagree.

Plus, Shokwave Slam, man! Now I'm exited about the idea, if it's feasible... (maybe it's feasible? I dunno...)

I really really like the idea of Shockwave Slam! I am, as ApexHawk, opposed to the idea of just dropping Stun Slam altogether (seems like extra work for DF to make new abilities where they have some interesting ones they can tweak a little). The charge ability is currently, except for the level 10 ability, probably the best caberjack ability out there. Lowering it in the skill tree feels weird since it is sooo good.

I don't know if this Shockwave Slam works in the massive chalice setting, but I feel that it might? That said it probably will still be hard to get into the proper spot for a good Shockwave Slam as it is. Though it would be way more worth it :)

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But charge doesn't do the same thing. You cannot charge behind the enemy and knock it backwards torwards your crew, nor can you take two moves to get into position to angle your charge right. I do agree that Stun slam is kinda useless right now, but I don't like dropping charge down to an early-game skill.

Charge is a very powerful skill, but that is precisely why it's better as a later unlock. I know you've been here longer (and longer and longer) than I have and have a better grip on the game's developement, but on this, we disagree.

Plus, Shokwave Slam, man! Now I'm exited about the idea, if it's feasible... (maybe it's feasible? I dunno...)

Actually I think charge does do almost the same thing. In that as long as you're quite close to an enemy you can reposition yourself before charging it (including from behind). I think the only difference is current knockback can be used from in the white (2 action point) area so you can move closer to nearby enemies to do a knockback. Kinda difficult to explain without diagrams, but essentially what I mean is:

Knockback: At short range, you can knockback from any angle. At medium range you can knockback at any angle as long as you can move to it.

Charge: At short range, you can knockback from any angle (by moving then activating charge). At medium - long range, you can knockback but only in the direction you are running in.

It's different, but not that much. It's a trade-off (longer range, in exchange for precision at greater distances), but I'd argue an interesting one.

Maybe there's something that can be done to save stun slam, but right now I can't think of anything that would make it a good alternative to Charge.

What I could see is giving the taunt level 1 (which also needs some upgrade) and removing the standard stun altogether. Giving caberjacks their first stun with charge on an earlier level because they are indeed kind of simular. The mobility that charge adds makes it too good for level 1 I feel though.

I would rather lose the standard stun in favor of an earlier charge than just deleting a tweaked stun slam from the skill tree.

I am more inclined to favor a lowered Stun Slam as it is instead of the very powerful charge ability though.

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Knockback: At short range, you can knockback from any angle. At medium range you can knockback at any angle as long as you can move to it.

Charge: At short range, you can knockback from any angle (by moving then activating charge). At medium - long range, you can knockback but only in the direction you are running in.

It's different, but not that much. It's a trade-off (longer range, in exchange for precision at greater distances), but I'd argue an interesting one.

Maybe there's something that can be done to save stun slam, but right now I can't think of anything that would make it a good alternative to Charge.

There is definately a need for both skills in the caberjack's repertoire, and for knockback to be the preliminary skill, mainly because it's less powerful, easier to use and to understand. Charge has a lot more positioning going on, but it can hurt a lot more. It's the more advanced move

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Knockback: At short range, you can knockback from any angle. At medium range you can knockback at any angle as long as you can move to it.

Charge: At short range, you can knockback from any angle (by moving then activating charge). At medium - long range, you can knockback but only in the direction you are running in.

It's different, but not that much. It's a trade-off (longer range, in exchange for precision at greater distances), but I'd arguean interesting one.

I, too, can bold particular bits of what I said in order to bias it towards my view ;)

Like you said, we just disagree on this point. I think it'd be good to give caberjacks a more advanced, more useful (it IS a trade off, but the trade is mostly in Charge's favour) move earlier on in the game. Especially one that adds so much mobility. Caberjacks tending to lag behind on the map is one of the reasons that they end up being not as useful as they could be in the early game.

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Oh hey guys what if Charge was the level 2 ability for Caberjacks?????????? :D

Sorry to be so silly! This is a suggestion that's been brought up a LOT on this forum and we're testing it out right now!

SPOILER

It's awesome! :D!

SPOILER

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Oh hey guys what if Charge was the level 2 ability for Caberjacks?????????? :D

Sorry to be so silly! This is a suggestion that's been brought up a LOT on this forum and we're testing it out right now!

SPOILER

It's awesome! :D!

SPOILER

Hey Brad! Glad it's being looked into, and hope it works out. My inclination is that it would immediately turn the caberjack into a more interesting class in the early game, but obviously my feeling might differ from reality!

The other thing is that by the time I unlock charge on my Caberjacks, I've usually sorta become set in my ways and I forget it's there most of the time. If it was there from almost the start I think I'd find more uses for it :)

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Oh hey guys what if Charge was the level 2 ability for Caberjacks?????????? :D

Sorry to be so silly! This is a suggestion that's been brought up a LOT on this forum and we're testing it out right now!

SPOILER

It's awesome! :D!

SPOILER

Sounds alright! Depends how you will rearrange the other skills tho!

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I think moving Charge down to level 2 is a good idea. Right now low-level Caberjacks are really hurting for good mobility options, and those are compounded if Asthma and Slowness is tainting your gene pool. It'll be interesting to see how you rearrange the skills. If you just straight up swapped Charge and Prime Target in the tree as it stands, I think I'd still lean toward Prime Target over Stun Slam, but it'd be a lot closer of a consideration. On the other hand, if you could have Charge, Knockback, and Stun Slam on the same Caberjack as they currently stand, you could potentially chain stuns indefinitely off a single character.

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I think moving Charge down to level 2 is a good idea. (...) On the other hand, if you could have Charge, Knockback, and Stun Slam on the same Caberjack as they currently stand, you could potentially chain stuns indefinitely off a single character.

On the gripping hand, chaining stuns means that character is locked up doing nothing but stunning and doing meager damage.

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OH MY GOD LOG JAM KNOCKS THINGS BACK NOW! SHOCKWAVE SLAM IS IN THE GAME!

THANK YOU WHOEVER DID THAT!

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...I gotta try this again. *ahem*

Gee-whiz, it shurr would be lovely if Twitchers had the Stand Ground skill. Dat would shurrly make 'em more unique, more dangerous and more interestin' to take do-wn. I shurr hope somebo-dy sees this and adds that to the game

*wink*

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I've actually had a couple fights where I Knockback a Twitcher into empty space to position them for a Charge or a Knockback Shot stun, but they snap back to the original square before my next action.

Is that something they do, or should I try to recreate and report that as a bug?

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Yeah, that's a bug. I just encountered the same thing when using ramcab caber with blastcap explosions. A cradle got knokced and then snapped back, and a seed dealt knocback damage even though it died from the blast in it's original position. Weird.

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If you guys come into a reproducible case by any chance and have a save handy, that'd be great. I know that I've seen an odd thing one time only where a caberjack charged into a cradle, which knocked into a rupture, and then the caberjack teleported to the rupture's position.

If you guys see it while streaming or something, send us a link :)

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Oh, oops, I just started a thread in the Bug Reports.

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/16140/

I'll try to keep an eye out for this again, and see if it's reproducible across saves.

It would be nice if there was some way to guarantee that combats would use the same random seed across saves so testers could get deterministic outcomes throughout a single fight...

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...I gotta try this again. *ahem*

Gee-whiz, it shurr would be lovely if Twitchers had the Stand Ground skill. Dat would shurrly make 'em more unique, more dangerous and more interestin' to take do-wn. I shurr hope somebo-dy sees this and adds that to the game

*wink*

Danks Mistah.

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Who dares to awake me from my slumber? Gravedigging awakes the dead. What did I miss since january?

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Was just browsing my old posts, and noticed I hadn't thanked anyone for including an idea I had an influence on.

So, Zombie Spam.

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