Sign in to follow this  
CrashFu

Where are Double Fine's Supporters on Steam?

Recommended Posts

So... there's an organized attempt on Steam to abuse Valve's poorly-thought-out review/rating system and maliciously sabotage the public perception of Valve's games... it started with Spacebase and I've been told it's spread to their other titles... yes, even the utterly flawless ones.

Discussion pages are filled with slander, DF being maligned as villains who take your money and run, despite all their years of gold-standard loyalty to their fans..

And I just now heard about death threats and DDoS attacks against the company.

Because of one small Early Access fiasco? Because Tim defended a controversial youtube feminist when she was getting death threats? Because Tim dared to tell his royal highness Jontron that it wasn't cool to snap at one of his fans and call them the R word?

This is insane. This is absolutely heartbreaking. Tim and the rest of Double Fine are some of my biggest heroes and I know there must be thousands who feel the same way, and they're being put through hell right now... So why is nobody standing up against this? Why is nobody speaking out? Why is nobody fighting back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So... there's an organized attempt on Steam to abuse Valve's poorly-thought-out review/rating system and maliciously sabotage the public perception of Valve's games... it started with Spacebase and I've been told it's spread to their other titles... yes, even the utterly flawless ones.

Discussion pages are filled with slander, DF being maligned as villains who take your money and run, despite all their years of gold-standard loyalty to their fans..

And I just now heard about death threats and DDoS attacks against the company.

Because of one small Early Access fiasco? Because Tim defended a controversial youtube feminist when she was getting death threats? Because Tim dared to tell his royal highness Jontron that it wasn't cool to snap at one of his fans and call them the R word?

This is insane. This is absolutely heartbreaking. Tim and the rest of Double Fine are some of my biggest heroes and I know there must be thousands who feel the same way, and they're being put through hell right now... So why is nobody standing up against this? Why is nobody speaking out? Why is nobody fighting back?

I don't want to go into details but it was recently suggested to me by a DF staff member that perhaps responding to ignorant threads makes it worse. I certainly think it's better to contribute to constructive discussion on these forums, but yeah, they're not fun to visit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So... there's an organized attempt on Steam to abuse Valve's poorly-thought-out review/rating system and maliciously sabotage the public perception of Valve's games... it started with Spacebase and I've been told it's spread to their other titles... yes, even the utterly flawless ones.

Discussion pages are filled with slander, DF being maligned as villains who take your money and run, despite all their years of gold-standard loyalty to their fans..

And I just now heard about death threats and DDoS attacks against the company.

Because of one small Early Access fiasco? Because Tim defended a controversial youtube feminist when she was getting death threats? Because Tim dared to tell his royal highness Jontron that it wasn't cool to snap at one of his fans and call them the R word?

This is insane. This is absolutely heartbreaking. Tim and the rest of Double Fine are some of my biggest heroes and I know there must be thousands who feel the same way, and they're being put through hell right now... So why is nobody standing up against this? Why is nobody speaking out? Why is nobody fighting back?

Where did you hear about death threats? I sincerely hope that's just a rumor, since that's utterly despicable and also extremely disproportionate compared to what anyone could believe Double Fine has done to wrong them. Though it's not entirely surprising considering recent events on the internet. People do awful things under the veil of anonymity, and I have myself considered that this whole thing wouldn't have blown so completely out of proportion if Tim Schafer hadn't been the decent guy he is and stepped into a wasp's nest when he saw people behaving like douche bags on Twitter.

If I remember correctly, there were at least one or two DDoS attacks before the whole Spacebase thing. Have there been any recently?

I've seen a lot of the discussions on Steam in the wake of this, and there are actually several who has tried to talk reason in the face of this "internet mob". It is however exhausting to keep it up after a while, since anyone out to discredit Double Fine has the advantage of not having to base their accusations on facts, but can instead just spool off an endless tirade of slander. And because it only requires a small number of dedicated individuals to keep it up, they'll always win until they tire of it or move on to their next target. There are legitimate concerns and disappointments of course, but they almost completely drown in the noise.

I also hope this thing doesn't end up hurting the sales of Massive Chalice, since it's already a very good game and a lot of fun. Double Fine should, I think, avoid putting it in bundles or sales until at least after its official release for three reasons: 1) It's already funded through spring of next year, 2) they shouldn't undervalue it and 3) they also should avoid giving people a cheap way in to troll the reviews. The latter is a problem I think Spacebase DF-9 and maybe Hack 'n' Slash has suffered from. Double Fine is no doubt aware that this is a potential problem though.

In the long run I hope and think this thing will blow over, since it already shows signs of dwindling down on Steam, and most importantly because most people don't care about what a bunch of angry people on the internet think. It's always comforting to see people stand up for Double Fine though. You and the ever reasonable KestrelPi included.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't want to go into details but it was recently suggested to me by a DF staff member that perhaps responding to ignorant threads makes it worse. I certainly think it's better to contribute to constructive discussion on these forums, but yeah, they're not fun to visit.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a good course of action. I did make a few of posts in some of those threads myself, but it is perhaps better to not fuel the fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't want to go into details but it was recently suggested to me by a DF staff member that perhaps responding to ignorant threads makes it worse. I certainly think it's better to contribute to constructive discussion on these forums, but yeah, they're not fun to visit.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a good course of action. I did make a few of posts in some of those threads myself, but it is perhaps better to not fuel the fire.

Me too, and sometimes it's hard not to respond to some of the more egregious falsehoods. Most recently I'm so disheartened by people gleefully thinking that that unannounced project being cancelled and people getting laid off proves some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly think it's better to contribute to constructive discussion on these forums.

Yeah, it's really the only way.

Pretty much all of these jerks arguments can be killed off with calm discussions since they almost always have no clue about what DF actually did when the Spacebase project was ending, the promising state of Broken Age Act 2, the discussed release dates of Broken Age Act 2 and the fine state of Massive Chalice. They're ignorant and dumb, and it's very hard to do anything against such people other then trying to be better then them.

So yeah, either calm constructive discussions, or just ignoring. Things like the abuse of reviews and ratings are things you can't really do anything about. Haters gonna hate, etc.

Or maybe the absolute best thing to do, is to be part of or start positive constructive threads about the games on the forums, without any references to the haters at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oftentimes it comes from a position of ignorance rather than outright malice, too. Like there are tons of people that just don't know there's been a release window for Broken Age since July and are wondering where Act 2 is. And it all adds up to the idea that nobody knows what's going on at Double Fine when in fact of course we know better than most developers.

I really think they ought to invest in a paid community manager role if even remotely possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I heard about the DDoS and death threats from Cheeseness.

I think you guys are right, I need to stop arguing with these insufferable tools (and MAN have I been arguing with them. Sorry if I embarrassed the rest of you) it just gives them their "lawls"

I should focus more on giving and rallying positive support for Tim and DF... make sure I've taken the time to leave good reviews on all of their games I've enjoyed on steam (even if they're just going to be immediately down-rated by so many trolls that nobody will ever read the review...) and maybe write a nice letter or think up some kind of fan project..

Hey, let's encourage everyone we know to do the same, right? Grassroots movement of love and support (and some patronage wouldn't hurt either, for those of us who can afford it) ... is Massive Chalice backing still open? EDIT: oh, the Early Access already started!? I need to keep up to date on these things, I didn't realize it was that far in development already. :red:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you say 'silent majority' ?

I hope that was the case, but yeah it sure feels bad wading thru non productive posts on Steam, just to read those insanely rad modding ideas.

One rotten food will always be smelly and stand out, compared to the other good foods on the whole table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the vast majority don't care about these vitriol-slingers, yeah. But it's still a nasty undercurrent that has got nastier in recent times.

It has always existed, the DF hate crowd that just LOVE an excuse to say bad things about Double Fine, and they're having a field day because right now pretty much anything they do can be twisted into a reason to have a go at them. It's too easy, for them:

Broken Age split into two acts: "Aaargh, Broken promises! 3 Million! Can't manage money!"

Broken Age Act 2 not out yet and other games coming out: "Why isn't this out yet? Guess it'll NEVER be out. Also, it'll suck because I read someone didn't like Act 1.

Elijah Wood: Oh, so THAT's where all the money went."

Spacebase DF-9 Early Access: "Again, can't manage money! Lied about it at the time!" (n.b. I think there are certainly legit criticisms of Spacebase as a project, but I think the reaction is overblown because of the hate mob).

Massive Chalice goes onto early access: "AGAIN? after the last time? What are they thinking?!"

Staff Layoffs: "I guess they couldn't manage that project either. I guess this means every single other DF project is getting cancelled now. Also, where is Broken Age Act 2 again? Cancelled, I bet."

Day of the Devs: "They're throwing a huge party amid staff layoffs and budget problems. Well, I'm certainly not going to check if this cost them anything, because it really fits my narrative of them not being able to manage money or projects."

Broken Age Act 1 nominated for an award: "This is corrupt BS, the full game isn't even OUT yet. Also where is BA act 2? Never gonna happen, I tell ya."

And so on and so on, forever. Ugh, I feel dirty now.

The problem is, the hate mob has reached a critical mass which is very difficult to do much about, because of this simple law:

bullsht-asymmetry-brandolini.jpg

We can be positive, we can talk in more constructive ways, but this principle is still going to remain, and that's a shame. As I've mentioned before, I worry that ultimately DF might decide that the price of being a more open sort of developer is too high. That it gives people too many targets to for this principle to be fired at.

Costume Quest 2 was released to minimal drama, and I start to wonder whether it's because development was more or less traditionally private. It's a bummer, if that's the case. Because I love interacting with all these guys. It's fun, and informative, and I feel like we've had a chance to make a real difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We can be positive, we can talk in more constructive ways, but this principle is still going to remain, and that's a shame. As I've mentioned before, I worry that ultimately DF might decide that the price of being a more open sort of developer is too high. That it gives people too many targets to for this principle to be fired at.

Costume Quest 2 was released to minimal drama, and I start to wonder whether it's because development was more or less traditionally private. It's a bummer, if that's the case. Because I love interacting with all these guys. It's fun, and informative, and I feel like we've had a chance to make a real difference.

I really hope they don't stop being open with their development because of this, as it's one of the things I really like about Double Fine. Hopefully it won't come to that, but to be honest, I really wouldn't blame them if they did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you say 'silent majority' ?

I hope that was the case, but yeah it sure feels bad wading thru non productive posts on Steam, just to read those insanely rad modding ideas.

One rotten food will always be smelly and stand out, compared to the other good foods on the whole table.

Nahhh, come on. The overwhelming consensus right now is against Double Fine. Rightly or wrongly, that's the way it is right now, and the reasons are obvious in retrospect: Broken Age, two (as-yet unfulfilled) Kickstarters, Space Base, and sadly Tim's strong strong position / provocateur act vis-a-vis #Gamergate.

Sucks, but that's the way it is right now.

This forum is of course a special case, because 1) the biggest loyalist fans tend to gather here, and 2) they're enforcing positivity recently. Definitely not representative of the majority opinion.

Hopefully Double Fine can do some things right in 2015 and turn their PR problem around. The documentary, at least, has been ballin'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted a lot of comments for a while on the Broken Age Steam forums. I focused mostly on correcting the multitudes of egregious falsehoods. But I'm not too fond of the direction Double Fine has gone into recently myself, so I have become more critical, though of course not in the baseless fashion many other commenters indulge in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you say 'silent majority' ?

I hope that was the case, but yeah it sure feels bad wading thru non productive posts on Steam, just to read those insanely rad modding ideas.

One rotten food will always be smelly and stand out, compared to the other good foods on the whole table.

Nahhh, come on. The overwhelming consensus right now is against Double Fine. Rightly or wrongly, that's the way it is right now, and the reasons are obvious in retrospect: Broken Age, two (as-yet unfulfilled) Kickstarters, Space Base, and sadly Tim's strong strong position / provocateur act vis-a-vis #Gamergate.

Sucks, but that's the way it is right now.

This forum is of course a special case, because 1) the biggest loyalist fans tend to gather here, and 2) they're enforcing positivity recently. Definitely not representative of the majority opinion.

Hopefully Double Fine can do some things right in 2015 and turn their PR problem around. The documentary, at least, has been ballin'.

There's sampling bias on the Steam forums too. So neither place can be called representative. And Tim's stance likely made him more friends than enemies. GG isn't a big group. It's a puffer fish.

I think the average person who plays games doesn't much care about the stuff people are arguing about over on the steam forums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DF has made a couple of things right but a couple of others also wrong.

So, some of the critiques are justified whilst others aren't.

It's up to DF to draw the right conclusions and steer the studio accordingly.

As for gamers, the more lunatic fringe on both sides are of no help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Definitely not just the Steam forums ;)
I didn't say it was just the Steam forums, though did I? I just said the steam forums is not representative. And this topic is about them.

Nor are the comments sections of enthusiast press sites representative, by the way. You only engage with that stuff if you are pretty invested in the argument, either way. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people playing games are uninterested in this squabble. Broken Age had 90k backers. Not even close to that number is engaged in a discussion about them. That should give you an idea of how small this bubble actually is.

Unfortunately, it does have an effect - because this audience is the audience that is also a bit more likely to go for things like Early Access (and Kickstarter, I suppose). Which is another reason why I suspect that sadly they will have to explore other avenues for a while (and it seems they have been).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does rile me up when I read people twisting the truth, or not even that, people who you can see don't even care to understand it because they have the opportunity to bash something. Anonymity + ignorance + ego... it's a bad combination and happens everywhere to everything.

For my part, I've upvoted all of the DF games I own on Steam - almost all of which have very strong ratings and I'm sure will stay that way. And I'm always posting my enthusiasm for new games on Facebook and Twitter. I think the genuine responses are a lot more powerful than the typical background hate-noise of the internet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been involved in a couple of pro-DF posts on the Steam forums. I do agree there's almost definitely a silent majority of support for DF -- but the vocal minority is pretty large and loud (and unbelievably dumb and ignorant to boot).

The only thing DF is guilty of is not being completely open about how close to the edge Spacebase was. It's a real lesson in PR to not suddenly announce the end of a project like that, especially for a company that people see as being large and stable (even though we know they're actually smaller and more indie than their high profile might suggest).

People will occasionally come into the Spacebase Steam forums and attempt to call BS on all the nonsense, but they generally get swamped by the buffoons and drowned out before anyone can get in and offer support.

If I were DF, I'd shut down all my Steam forums for a while (they already don't have one for Massive Chalice I see). At the moment all they're doing is helping propagate the FUD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Because Tim dared to tell his royal highness Jontron that it wasn't cool to snap at one of his fans and call them the R word?
Just wanted to point out that this isn't what happened at all. JonTron was retweeting Tim's tweets about Anita Sarkeesian and was stating things about how the videos were wrong and stuff. Tim responded saying it was sad. They later talked directly and are on friendly terms now. "The R word" thing was a different controversy with JonTron where he used the word to jokingly describe the PS4. People got upset about it (many unreasonably so, IMO), and he gave a dumb non-apology about it. I'm of the mind that the way JonTron voices his opinions on things does not work well on Twitter.

Anyway, yeah, there's some dumb hate going around for DF. Even on these forums. It's one of the reasons I don't hang around here much anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"The R word" thing was a different controversy with JonTron where he used the word to jokingly describe the PS4. People got upset about it (many unreasonably so, IMO), and he gave a dumb non-apology about it. I'm of the mind that the way JonTron voices his opinions on things does not work well on Twitter.

You must have missed the tweet exchange where someone VERY POLITELY told jontron that it was really offensive to use the word "retarded" as a general pejorative, to which Jontron replied, AND I QUOTE, "Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you're retarded"

Instead of accepting that his word usage was hurting and offending people, he snapped at polite fan and called them retarded, just to rub it in that he'll shamelessly use any slur he feels like using. In other words, Jontron officially came out as a "shock comic" like Daniel Tosh and probably narrowed his fanbase to just the "teenage boys who call each other slurs on 4chan" demographic.

Later, Jon greeted Tim on twitter and told him he was a big fan or something. Tim replied with something to the effect of "Thanks, but I'm afraid all I know about you is [reference to the R word incident, forget the exact wording] to which Jon claimed to have done nothing wrong. Again.

The Anita thing came later, and you left out the part where after days of Jontron's fans sending Tim death threats and other hatemail, Jon made a big tweet accusing Tim of sicking HIS [Tim's] fans on HIM [Jontron], which was both complete B.S. and spurned Jon's army of preteen 4chan-and-reddit-ers to further attacks against Tim and DF.

I'm sorry to derail the topic like this and potentially start an argument, but I couldn't let the record go uncorrected; Jontron deserves NO sympathy from any of us after what a horrible, unapolagetic, apathetic jerk he's been or after all the hate he purposefully generated against Tim and Double Fine.

Maybe Tim has forgiven him as the later tweets said, but I sure haven't. Not until he feels some shred of guilt or shame for his actions.

I do apologize for showing this kind of anger in such a kind and peaceful community, though. I'm sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the vast majority don't care about these vitriol-slingers, yeah. But it's still a nasty undercurrent that has got nastier in recent times.

It has always existed, the DF hate crowd that just LOVE an excuse to say bad things about Double Fine, and they're having a field day because right now pretty much anything they do can be twisted into a reason to have a go at them. It's too easy, for them:

Broken Age split into two acts: "Aaargh, Broken promises! 3 Million! Can't manage money!"

Broken Age Act 2 not out yet and other games coming out: "Why isn't this out yet? Guess it'll NEVER be out. Also, it'll suck because I read someone didn't like Act 1.

Elijah Wood: Oh, so THAT's where all the money went."

Spacebase DF-9 Early Access: "Again, can't manage money! Lied about it at the time!" (n.b. I think there are certainly legit criticisms of Spacebase as a project, but I think the reaction is overblown because of the hate mob).

Massive Chalice goes onto early access: "AGAIN? after the last time? What are they thinking?!"

Staff Layoffs: "I guess they couldn't manage that project either. I guess this means every single other DF project is getting cancelled now. Also, where is Broken Age Act 2 again? Cancelled, I bet."

Day of the Devs: "They're throwing a huge party amid staff layoffs and budget problems. Well, I'm certainly not going to check if this cost them anything, because it really fits my narrative of them not being able to manage money or projects."

Broken Age Act 1 nominated for an award: "This is corrupt BS, the full game isn't even OUT yet. Also where is BA act 2? Never gonna happen, I tell ya."

And so on and so on, forever. Ugh, I feel dirty now.

The problem is, the hate mob has reached a critical mass which is very difficult to do much about, because of this simple law:

bullsht-asymmetry-brandolini.jpg

See?

Broken Age Act 2 delayed until early 2015: "OMG, see how bad they are??? With these delays? That they've been telling backers might happen for a while?"

Yup, this sort of thing is happening already. It's lose-lose with DF at the moment. Everyone who is actually interested in Broken Age knows that the REAL story here is that it sounds like Part 2 is gonna be about twice as long to play through as 1. But yet again, it's much too easy to highlight the delay, totally out of context.

Only yesterday, I saw someone comparing the ORIGINAL 400k estimated release with the current one. It's embarrassingly stupid and I wish I knew what they could do about it. Right now, it feels like there's absolutely nothing DF could say that won't be taken negatively by a distressingly vocal group of people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the announcement was made in early 2014, I'd understand. But this announcement was made in late 2014, like November and December, and the idiots on places like Steam and 4chan that are attacking Double Fine are doing this when 2015 is just less than a month away.

Why can't these people just WAIT ONE MONTH before making judgments about Double Fine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why can't these people just WAIT ONE MONTH before making judgments about Double Fine?

Because when you're pre-judging someone, you look for ANY shred of evidence that suggests they're bad and latch onto that like a barnacle, while ignoring any evidence to how good they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why can't these people just WAIT ONE MONTH before making judgments about Double Fine?

Because when you're pre-judging someone, you look for ANY shred of evidence that suggests they're bad and latch onto that like a barnacle, while ignoring any evidence to how good they are.

mhhh, I'm neither a hater nor fanboy of DF so i kept out of this mess, but i'm wondering.. whats your evidence for "how good they are"?

and did'nt DF plan to release late 2014? Did they really communicate the 2015 date early, or was this just our/the backers expectation that they will delay it again? (aka "we saw it coming")?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and did'nt DF plan to release late 2014? Did they really communicate the 2015 date early, or was this just our/the backers expectation that they will delay it again? (aka "we saw it coming")?

They never announced any date, so early 2015 wasn't a shock at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and did'nt DF plan to release late 2014? Did they really communicate the 2015 date early, or was this just our/the backers expectation that they will delay it again? (aka "we saw it coming")?

They never announced any date, so early 2015 wasn't a shock at all.

Another blind defender?

Until recently the store page on Steam clearly stated that part 2 would be released later this year. How is that not communicating a release in 2014?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MINE EYES, MINE EYES -- opaque and blind to the truth! Fun pills and sleds for everyone.

Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this