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Jack Dandy

General disappointment with Double Fine

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Just wanted to let DF know that I've been generally disappointed with them in the last year.

First, Broken Age ended up tepid and uninteresting. 2nd part gets delayed to who-knows-when.

The whole Space Base fiasco where DF pooped on a good deal of customers.

And now, Tim throwing his lot with a guy who gloats about generating moral panic:

w4DpMxu.jpg

I expected better from this studio. :(

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I've been pretty pleased DF. I think they can and should do more things better (communication, PR, development) but I look forward to Act 2 for Broken Age, and the finishing of Massive Chalice. I'll probably also pick-up Hack N Slash in a holiday steam sale I imagine.

Smiles

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First, Broken Age ended up tepid and uninteresting.

Is uninspired really the word you want to use there? If you're dissapointed in the game, then that's your freedom to express that. But uninspired? In what way?

2nd part gets delayed to who-knows-when.

We actually do know. Early 2015. Look at the latest docs and and production updates for quite clear status reports on what state Act 2 is in now.

The whole Space Base fiasco where DF pooped on a good deal of customers.

I wonder how many of them that were people who bought the game. Did you?

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I wonder how many of them that were people who bought the game.

Good point. If the amount of noise was representative of the amount of costumers, what ended up happening to the game wouldn't happen.

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Just wanted to let DF know that I've been generally disappointed with them in the last year.

First, Broken Age ended up tepid and uninteresting. 2nd part gets delayed to who-knows-when.

The whole Space Base fiasco where DF pooped on a good deal of customers.

And now, Tim throwing his lot with a guy who gloats about generating moral panic:

w4DpMxu.jpg

I expected better from this studio. :(

Just wanted to let you know that you're part of what I dislike most about video games (especially that last comment).

I expect better out of people. =(

Have a nice day.

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I don't think a customer expressing disappointment with a company is quite the same as personally attacking that customer for daring to be critical.

Anyway, this is tangentially related, but Jonathan McIntosh INCENSES me. I am probably a feminist, too, so we fundamentally agree on a lot of things. I don't know if he's ever read a book in his life. All he does is sit back on Twitter and make general pronouncements and moral judgments, completely unsourced -- presumably drawing on his stock of knowledge, experience, and wisdom as a 30-year-old with dubious real-world credentials.

We need to stop glamorizing ignorant philosophers just because they agree with us. There are thousands of scholars who never get a second glance because they're not fashionable or incendiary enough. Yet, sadly, this random kid gets attention because he helps write Anita's videos -- whose weakest point, by the way, is their completely lazy attitude toward establishing a theoretical and empirical foundation.

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I think it's great, that Tim Schafer speaks out for Anita Sarkeesian and against Misogynie in games. I personally cannot enjoy playing games like GTA for that exact fact. Tim Schafer makes games I can enjoy.

Nowhere ever have I gotten so much value for 30$ like I did for this kickstarter. Not just a game but a multi-hour documentary. This ongoing criticism is ridiculous.

And on top of all, doublefine provides a forum where people post things like this:

Yet, sadly, this random kid gets attention because he helps write Anita’s videos—whose weakest point, by the way, is their completely lazy attitude toward establishing a theoretical and empirical foundation.

Haven't had such a great lough in a long time. Thank you.

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I don't think a customer expressing disappointment with a company is quite the same as personally attacking that customer for daring to be critical.

I expressed disappointment in him for having opinions/criticisms about things, kinda like he expressed disappointment in Tim for having opinions/criticisms about things.

But what he's really saying is that he's disappointed that Tim has an opinion that he does not have, and that makes him feel negatively about Double Fine as a whole. I think that's pretty sad--especially when we're just talking about criticism.

In my mind, this would be the same as someone showing up to the forum and posting, "I've been really disappointed in Double Fine this year---especially after I found out that Tim thinks The Evil Within has too much blood in it. I expected better out of him."

I mean, come on.

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The things that people care about are hilarious to me. Carry on, everyone. I am entertained.

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I don't know who the twitter guy the OP mentioned is, but if the displayed tweet is the most damning thing he could find on him, well.. *slow shrug*? Is something supposed to be offensive in that tweet?

Also, OP has a right to his opinion on Broken Age... but I have the right to think he has terrible taste because of that opinion. I've played a number of Point n Click adventures for comparison, and Broken Age represents the pinnacle of the genre slash art-form. :smirk:

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Seeing as OP has been on these forums for two years, I'll assume this isn't just a trolling attempt, merely someone's opinions. All I would like to do in response is offer mine:

I thought that Broken Age Ep1 was fantastic. I trust DF to deliver the 2nd half as soon as they can without compromising the game's quality or the studio itself. I don't mind the delays, because they happen to every studio, as a Kickstarter backer I expect no guarantees, and I understand that the discrepancy between initial goal and final total threw the whole thing out of whack, delivery-estimation-wise.

I very much agree with Tim's views on gaming culture and appreciate him stating them openly.

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I'm in the disappointed camp as well. With all the remastered edition announcements, I can't help but consider what could be if the work that is going into them was spent developing their new, amazing IP: Hack N Slash, Massive Chalice, and Space Base.

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I'm in the disappointed camp as well. With all the remastered edition announcements, I can't help but consider what could be if the work that is going into them was spent developing their new, amazing IP: Hack N Slash, Massive Chalice, and Space Base.

Well, not much probably. The remastered teams, at least for GF, aren't very big. They don't need to be - they're small projects. Creating new things needs more people - which is why the bulk of DF is working on new things right now.

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As someone who's worked on GTA, I find that tweet hilarious, these people really don't know the depth to the game and how many strong female characters are actually in the series, instead all they see is "YOU CAN PICK UP PROSTITUTES AND THEN KILL THEM TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!", but hey, it generates headlines and in the end is a positive in driving more sales for the game.

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I'm in the disappointed camp as well. With all the remastered edition announcements, I can't help but consider what could be if the work that is going into them was spent developing their new, amazing IP: Hack N Slash, Massive Chalice, and Space Base.

"What could be": well, they might go broke from not having enough projects generating revenue I guess.

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As someone who's worked on GTA, I find that tweet hilarious, these people really don't know the depth to the game and how many strong female characters are actually in the series, instead all they see is "YOU CAN PICK UP PROSTITUTES AND THEN KILL THEM TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!", but hey, it generates headlines and in the end is a positive in driving more sales for the game.

I wouldn't say GTA was mysognyst, but rather just incredibly purile.

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As someone who's worked on GTA, I find that tweet hilarious, these people really don't know the depth to the game and how many strong female characters are actually in the series, instead all they see is "YOU CAN PICK UP PROSTITUTES AND THEN KILL THEM TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!", but hey, it generates headlines and in the end is a positive in driving more sales for the game.

I wouldn't say GTA was mysognyst, but rather just incredibly purile.

And that is the fun part about GTA if you don't like it dont play it. It's as simple as that.

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As someone who's worked on GTA, I find that tweet hilarious, these people really don't know the depth to the game and how many strong female characters are actually in the series, instead all they see is "YOU CAN PICK UP PROSTITUTES AND THEN KILL THEM TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!", but hey, it generates headlines and in the end is a positive in driving more sales for the game.

I wouldn't say GTA was mysognyst, but rather just incredibly purile.

I'd say the transphobia against trans women in the game is enough alone to mark it out as, in places, misogynist. Doesn't mean it doesn't have merit, too, but there's some stuff I find pretty hard to ignore nowadays, especially when I have friends affected by the issues the lazy stereotyping and high-school level jokes help to perpetuate.

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As someone who's worked on GTA, I find that tweet hilarious, these people really don't know the depth to the game and how many strong female characters are actually in the series, instead all they see is "YOU CAN PICK UP PROSTITUTES AND THEN KILL THEM TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!", but hey, it generates headlines and in the end is a positive in driving more sales for the game.

I wouldn't say GTA was mysognyst, but rather just incredibly purile.

And that is the fun part about GTA if you don't like it dont play it. It's as simple as that.

It isn't as simple as 'if you don't like it, don't play it' that when, say, it openly belittles and mocks trans people and helps perpetuate stereotypes. This stuff has an effect, and it absolutely should be called out. You may disagree with specifics, or have no personal problem with it - and that's fine, I guess, but it really just isn't as simple as 'don't like it, don't play it.'

I think by now we're post-"games can't possibly affect people's opinions about anything," and into: Okay, games are part of our culture, and therefore they're subject to the same criticisms (which are, of course, up for debate) as any other medium, rather than treating them as these things that exist in a vaccuum and we can happily just ignore if they do something we don't like.

I don't really think GTA is the worst example of a lot of bad examples in games right, now. But I definitely think as a series for a long time it's been muddled for a long time - wanting to be taken more seriously, culturally, since GTAIV at least, but still acting very much like a 20 year old game in other ways. And I think it's valid to suggest that one of those ways is -some- forms of sexism. Others may disagree. It can be a discussion, the sky isn't falling.

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It can be a discussion, the sky isn't falling.

Gamers like "repugnant misogynist garbage", everyone else outside doesn't. What a nice discussion.

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It can be a discussion, the sky isn't falling.

Gamers like "repugnant misogynist garbage", everyone else outside doesn't. What a nice discussion.

I'm not that guy. I agree with some of what he says, other things I don't. I wouldn't have put it that way, but yeah - a lot of GTA I do find trashy, and it's a shame because it seems to me they are at least aspiring to be more meaningful. Meanwhile, the recent Saints Rows feel both sillier, in some ways less interesting, but more inclusive. There isn't just one axis these things fall upon, is what I'm trying to say.

I'm interested in nuance, but are you? It seems unlikely, given how reductive you seem to have been about both this thing and the 'gamers are dead' thing.

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I don't particularly like GTA myself, but I absolutely hate this tribalistic us vs them bullsh*t. This is why I took a strong stance against Gamergate right at the beginning. And the way gamers are stereotyped as white straight males who live in their own small world is no better in my eyes.

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I don't particularly like GTA myself, but I absolutely hate this tribalistic us vs them bullsh*t. This is why I took a strong stance against Gamergate right at the beginning. And the way gamers are stereotyped as white straight males who live in their own small world is no better in my eyes.
As we said at the time, that's gamers -as they are marketed to-, which is pretty undeniable, really. That's the concept to kill, that the concept which, if it isn't dead, is failing, now. That there's a sort of gamer you can market to at the expense of everyone else.

The people you should be mad at aren't the ones writing those articles, it's the publishers who have created this artificial construct of 'gamer' that gives themselves an excuse to play it safe, while not really looking anything like the array of people who actually play games and want to feel welcome in that space.

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Do you really want to rehash the conversation? The idea that it should be implicitly understood that it's only a particular type of gamers that are being attacked does not hold much water to me.

What about people who have built their own gamer identity, not just borrowed the one that the marketers target?

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Do you really want to rehash the conversation? The idea that it should be implicitly understood that it's only a particular type of gamers that are being attacked does not hold much water to me.

I'm willing to rehash it as often as is necessary to get the point across. You say that the argument doesn't hold much water to you, but it's right there in the article. Could you indulge me for just a minute?

1) The title of the one people got most mad about: "'Gamers' don't have to be your audience. 'Gamers' are over." So first of all, this is addressed to people selling games. It's talking about audience, and the concept of target audience and what 'Gamer' has traditionally meant. Which I don't think you disagree, games have traditionally been marketed to young white males demographics, even if more people actually play them than just that, right? It's a fairly uncontroversial starting point.

2)

All of us should be better than this. You should be deeply questioning your life choices if this and this and this are the prominent public face your business presents to the rest of the world.
Again, addressing the people selling, and 'this' referring to examples of the recent unpleasantness.

3) So then we get to the part that most people get their pants all in their twist about, if they do at all:

Suddenly a generation of lonely basement kids had marketers whispering in their ears that they were the most important commercial demographic of all time. Suddenly they started wearing shiny blouses and pinning bikini babes onto everything they made, started making games that sold the promise of high-octane masculinity to kids just like them.

Context is important here, specifically some of the context I left out from the preceding paragraphs because I don't want to repeat it wholesale, but can you see how what's being said here is not 'all gamers are lonely basement kids' but they're the ones who have, historically been sold these power fantasies which have emboldened them to form up into some of the less pleasant parts of gaming culture we've been seeing lately.

There haven't been any blanket statements yet, just a discussion about how marketers have sold games, historically, and how that might have helped create the situation we see now where certain people feel like they have more ownership of the label than maybe they should.

...

And so the piece goes on, the focus fully on the relationship between people who play games, people who make them, and people who market them, and how the safe 'gamer' demographic that used to be the 'go to' audience for safe, reliable income is no longer really working.

To read that as an attack on gamers is surely to entirely miss the point, isn't it? It's an attack on two things - 1) a particular group of people lately doing really very unpleasant things, and 2) the way that marketers have coddled that group for years into believing the medium is just for them, and therefore instilled in them a deep suspicion of any ideas that deign to 'step on their turf'.

If you don't recognise a little truth in that based on what we've seen the last few months, I don't know what to tell you.

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She's describing the gamer identity as something made up by marketers and gamers as basically the idiots who drank the Kool-Aid. The idea of gamer identity as a demographic created by marketing is bad enough, but labeling this group as the bad apples is even worse. She is stereotyping gamers in a way that's not only insulting to the lonely basement kids, but also many other people who have been wearing the gamer label.

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She's describing the gamer identity as something made up by marketers and gamers as basically the idiots who drank the Kool-Aid. The idea of gamer identity as a demographic created by marketing is bad enough, but labeling this group as the bad apples is even worse. She is stereotyping gamers in a way that's not only insulting to the lonely basement kids, but also many other people who have been wearing the gamer label.

Well, I tried. I listen to these people who are apparently in your eyes being so beastly. Some of them I speak to, on occasion. And they're not who you think they are. That's all I can really say about it.

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I don't have anything against them personally. I don't subscribe to their particular idea of what a gamer is and the idea that gamer identity is something that's becoming irrelevant is in my opinion wishful thinking at best and a delusion at worst.

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