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Potato Shaven

Suggestion: Fine Tuning Double Tap.

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If you use a Double Tap on a creature and, on first hit, kill the creature, you don't trigger the cool down for Double Tap. That is to say, unless you actually use the Double Tap, it doesn't act as if you used it. Especially with the critical hits that relics add to the game.

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Then why would you ever NOT Follow-up?

because its on Cooldown. The OPs suggestion makes sense in a logical way, i still prefer me having control about it instead of the RNG.

If i think using a follow up now is the best approach i will need lve with the resulting cooldown.

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Then why would you ever NOT Follow-up?

because its on Cooldown. The OPs suggestion makes sense in a logical way, i still prefer me having control about it instead of the RNG.

If i think using a follow up now is the best approach i will need lve with the resulting cooldown.

Yeah. The battles are a lot more interesting, when you have to take into account the risk of going on cooldown when you take a shot. Tactical decisions stem from limitations.

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If I want a double tap, I'll order a double tap.

If I don't want a double tap, I'll not order a double tap.

If I don't want a double tap, but for some reason I ordered one, then I'm a damn fool and I don't deserve to have double tap for the next turn.

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If I don't want a double tap, but for some reason I ordered one, then I'm a damn fool and I don't deserve to have double tap for the next turn.

Critical hits are not something you can predict, so how can you know you didn't need to use it until afterwards? The "damn fool" is the one who can't tell the enemy has already died.

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Yeah. The battles are a lot more interesting, when you have to take into account the risk of going on cooldown when you take a shot. Tactical decisions stem from limitations.

Agreed.

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If I don't want a double tap, but for some reason I ordered one, then I'm a damn fool and I don't deserve to have double tap for the next turn.

Critical hits are not something you can predict, so how can you know you didn't need to use it until afterwards? The "damn fool" is the one who can't tell the enemy has already died.

ok. but the double tab doubles your chances of getting a crit too. so if you really need a guy to die--> doubletap. if you only want him dead and might kill him with a good shot dont doubletap. if your hunter cant kill a guy and dosnt have doubletap you can hope for a crit or run away and stealth. if you cant stealth and cant kill and cant doubletap or cant reasonably hit a guy... make the hard call.

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If I don't want a double tap, but for some reason I ordered one, then I'm a damn fool and I don't deserve to have double tap for the next turn.

Critical hits are not something you can predict, so how can you know you didn't need to use it until afterwards? The "damn fool" is the one who can't tell the enemy has already died.

Yes, I can predict how often a critical hit will occur, and I can decide whether I want to take a chance of a crit killing a baddie or guarantee it by double tapping. If it isn't a big deal, or my crit is somehow reliable enough, I'll take the chance with the crit.

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No, you cannot predict how often a critical will occur. That's gamblers fallacy number one. That pretty number on your character sheet is only a chance to a critical to occur. Sometimes it will happen, sometimes it won't, but you won't know which it is until you roll the virtual dice.

This topic boils down to two ideas:

1/ Taking risks is fun and the more risks you put in, the more fun it gets. More risks leads to interesting decisions because you feel smart when you guess right.

2/ Some risks are not fun and those risks can be eliminated. Not fun risks result in you making choices that make you feel bad when you guess wrong.

Some will argue that you can't feel really smart unless there is a chance for you to feel really stupid as well; therefore you should have a chance to waste your special ability. Others will argue that you don't have to feel really stupid to feel really smart; therefore you should not have to waste your special ability.

Flarrow is an example of a skill that everyone likes because when you use it you always feel smart and it eliminates your risk of harm from a whole group of baddies for a turn. If you wanted to put that skill on the same level of "fun" as Follow Up, each potential target would have a chance to not be affected.

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No, you cannot predict how often a critical will occur. That's gamblers fallacy number one. That pretty number on your character sheet is only a chance to a critical to occur. Sometimes it will happen, sometimes it won't, but you won't know which it is until you roll the virtual dice.

This topic boils down to two ideas:

1/ Taking risks is fun and the more risks you put in, the more fun it gets. More risks leads to interesting decisions because you feel smart when you guess right.

2/ Some risks are not fun and those risks can be eliminated. Not fun risks result in you making choices that make you feel bad when you guess wrong.

Some will argue that you can't feel really smart unless there is a chance for you to feel really stupid as well; therefore you should have a chance to waste your special ability. Others will argue that you don't have to feel really stupid to feel really smart; therefore you should not have to waste your special ability.

Flarrow is an example of a skill that everyone likes because when you use it you always feel smart and it eliminates your risk of harm from a whole group of baddies for a turn. If you wanted to put that skill on the same level of "fun" as Follow Up, each potential target would have a chance to not be affected.

Rather than looking at the risk involved with the skill, I'm more concerned with the impact this would have on gameplay: basically, follow-up would be the "correct" action to take every time you hit the target. Basically every high-% shot with the hunter, where there was the slightest chance of a low-roll would be "correct" to take as a Follow-up. Taking the follow up shot would be the "correct" play more often, and playing the class would feel a little bit more passive. Furthermore, taking a follow-up shot takes a few more clicks than a regular shot, so playing hunters would become a bit more finicy on average (if you're playing well, obviously)

Having the cooldown associated with follow-up makes them happen less frequently, and makes using follow-up a choosier choice.

So, it would not be a big change, but it would be a slight change for the worse, is waht I'm saying.

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Who was in favor of removing the cooldown completely? I think you were misreading from the start. If you use it and the second shot activates, you are still on cooldown for 3 turns.

Note: If they change it so it works this way, they'll have to fix Ruptures so that they actually die and explode when the first arrow does enough damage to kill them instead of waiting until the players action is complete. This would not be a trivial change to the code, so they are unlikely to spend the time to do it at this stage.

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This topic boils down to two ideas:

1/ Taking risks is fun and the more risks you put in, the more fun it gets. More risks leads to interesting decisions because you feel smart when you guess right.

2/ Some risks are not fun and those risks can be eliminated. Not fun risks result in you making choices that make you feel bad when you guess wrong.

that isnt what this is a question of. this is the heart of the disscussion

1. treat follow up shot like a resource that can be wasted if used unwisely

or

2. follow up shot should be a forgiving ability that dosn't punish you for improper use.

as it currently works, a hunter's follow up shot is a resource that is best used carfuly. the suggestion to have the second shot only trigger when needed would make it function more as a passive buff. you would never not use it. if your first shot missed you would keep folow up, and if your first shot killed you would keep follow up. this means that a hunter would be garanteed a positive result from any attack until follow up shot activates... which removes choice compleately from it's use as an ability.

in your flarrow example. you can miss a flarrow. if you think some cadence are out in the fog and fire a flarrow and reveal nothing you have made the wrong choice. if you blind some cadence and run you guys in but dont kill the cadence efficently then you have wasted the flarrow. if you fire your flarrow to save a hero and blind some of your heros then you have made a risk/reward evaluation and made a choice about how to spend your resources.

useing flarrow should be a choice and i think it works well.

also with a high lvl relic you have over 50% of criting anyway in my experience.

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Currently, Follow Up is this.

1. treat follow up shot like a resource that can be wasted if used unwisely

Originally Changing Follow Up to not go on cool down if you don't take a second shot seems appropriate to me because you didn't actually use the ability. Original post... That is to say, unless you actually use the Double Tap, it doesn’t act as if you used it.

In Massive Chalice: Abilities are renewable tactical resources. Passives are permanent tactical benefits, in the form of Traits/Personality.

ApexHawk asks, "Then why would you ever NOT Follow-up?" I think he's actually got the gist of it. Irregardless of strategy, making my suggested change would turn the ability from a renewable tactical resource into a ... Trait.

To be fair, the double up, is all one action, it doesn't work mechanically as a 2nd action. That's why both arrows can do the damage rolled when hitting a Bulwark. But I don't think I appreciated the specificity of this distinction until I read everyone's responses.

I still think it's weird, that not using the ability (say because you did critical damage) puts the ability on cooldown, but I think I wasn't appreciating the timing of it as an ability (because with critical you don't see the action).

New suggestion: Lower the cool-down by 1 turn when you don't take that second shot because of sudden death.

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also with a high lvl relic you have over 50% of criting anyway in my experience.

41% at level 10. You can check that number in a relics info. If the real chance is more than that, it would be a bug since they actually dropped the number from ~60% to 41% prior to the early access release.

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ahhh been a while since i bothered to check crit chance #'s then. still you have a better than 1 in 3 chance of a crit.

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Maybe just change the ability to be able to shoot a second shot, even a new target, but without the possibility to move.

I don't really understand follow-up shot as a concept for a ranged-attack, but mechanically, it works. I don't mind the way it is right now.

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it IS a matter of preference.

I still think that MC is a game where managing risks and a good amount of tactical thought is influenced by "random" and/or "statistical" risks. But that is part of the fun.

While i agree that your proposed double tap could work in games like Banner saga for example MC works with chances.

And that is part of the fun, if you change double tap this way why shouldnt we get rid of hit chances altogether?

just because i have a hitchance of 95% doesnt mean i hit, its just likely.

you just need to change HOW you look at a specific situation and try to manage with these risks.

Both systems have their good points but i like what MCs does 110% :)

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I think that Follow Up is one of the best abilities in the game right now. I'm not really looking for ways to buff it! :D

I do think it's interesting that you have to choose when to use it, and if you ended up not needing it I think the cooldown SHOULD be blown. As some people have pointed out in this thread it makes the choice more interesting! :D!

Brad!

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