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What am I doing wrong?

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First of all, this is a lovely and fun game. I want that to be known right up front.

But man, this game is utterly difficult and punishing. Over three games I have yet to survive the first keep invasion, if I'm lucky enough to get that far. And the worst part is that I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. Which is just making me incredibly frustrated and has just killed most of my enjoyment.

The tactical combat doesn't feel all that bad at first, but by the time Bulwarks show up I just get destroyed every time. I've had multiple party wipes and I've just go zero idea how to prevent this. Am I supposed to be higher than level 2 when they show up?

I tried starting out with 3 keeps, one for each class. But this doesn't seem even remotely sufficient to keep up with the attrition I experienced. Even worse, for some reason my bloodlines kept pushing out horrible soldiers that died at the drop of the hat. They were all level 1 or 2 runts with terrible traits, despite the fact that I tried to marry two people with the best combination of traits possible.

I tried running a balanced team (2 Cabers, 2 Hunters, 1 Alchemist) but it seemed like that wasn't sufficient. And then after a while I was only left with Cabers to choose from, since everyone else had died. Is there even a way to recover from this?

I would dearly love to have a bit more advice on creating and maintaining bloodlines. Right now I just feel utterly clueless and the unrelenting hordes of enemies just don't let up.

Maybe this game just isn't for me? Maybe I'm just terrible and not the target audience? Should I just give up?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. In game advice would be even better.

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A tutorial thread: http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/15741/

General gameplay tips (about 2 posts down): http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/15859/

The difficulty issues, and Bulwarks in particular have been a pretty consistent problem for some.

If you don't wanna read, then the short version goes:

-Keep one group of higher leveled guys in your roster. Appoint the highest leveled characters as regents. To beat bulwarks you should bring a group with only one lvl1 character at most.

-Buwarks require the use of crowd control. Knock them around, charge them, blind them, hide from them, don't line up your characters.... Minimize the damage you take each turn. You need lvl4 characters with good bonuses to start one-shotting them, so until then, you need to deal.

-Bring health vials/vitaibands to the bulwark fights. Helps survivability.

-As for the kingdom, focus on getting the right bonuses, building up your map and then researching armor. You need at least 4 keeps to keep up a stable population.

-Fit one "recruit heroes" research into the early game, before your first genration dies off.

That's the short of it, I guess. The game's beginning is the hardest part of the game, weirdly enough, since the kingdom is most vulnurable early on.

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Can you give more details on what you are having difficulty with specifically?

I would say 3 keeps is to many, I've never built more than two. Getting your crucible up quickly is really valuable so that you can stay ahead on XP. XP in this game is a light positive feedback system, the more XP you have the more you can give to the next generation with the crucible, so getting one early will have gains you see through the entire game. At the end of my first play through all individuals were level 10 when they came of age for the last 75 years or so (but I did have an area that boosted a local crucible).

I would also avoid running a team with fairly equal distribution of classes. Many aspects of the system design make specialization the better option. The fewer classes you focus on the fewer weapon and armor you will want to upgrade. The fewer classes you have the more people you have in those classes allowing you to avoid the characters with bad traits and personalities. As two of the enemies you encounter early explode on death specializing in Cabers will make your life a little difficult. While specializing in a class or ignoring one of the 3 will hurt your versatility a little, it will generally make the experience easier. Try running a heavy Hunter squad.

Hunter's with Veil armor rarely get hit by bulwarks, they are also ideal for taking them down due to Follow Up and Put It Down (their defensive ability doesn't trigger till after follow up).

Hitting things is one of the most important part of any TBS so make sure to research the Steady Hander early, and you probably want it on nearly everyone.

There is no time limit in combat, and taking lots of turns doesn't seem to have any negative effect. So be sure to scout ahead with stealthed hunters and be sure everyone is in position before you let the next group of enemies see you. Another benefit to ranged units is that you can easily keep each group of enemies separate and often even pull out some enemies in a group without aggroing the entire group.

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I would also avoid running a team with fairly equal distribution of classes. Many aspects of the system design make specialization the better option. The fewer classes you focus on the fewer weapon and armor you will want to upgrade. The fewer classes you have the more people you have in those classes allowing you to avoid the characters with bad traits and personalities. As two of the enemies you encounter early explode on death specializing in Cabers will make your life a little difficult. While specializing in a class or ignoring one of the 3 will hurt your versatility a little, it will generally make the experience easier. Try running a heavy Hunter squad.

I'm just going to say I disagree. Sure, only needing to research one type of armor and weapons gives a slight edge, but If you only field one class the combat becomes more monotonous and grindy. having the classes interact and play off each other is one of the cool things about the game! (Hybrids, of course, will completely change things next week) I think this is more of a personal preference than a genreal gameplay tip. Just sayin' :)

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I think the game is doing something right since you just got two different recommendations about keep management.

Bulwarks are likely you biggest problems in the tactical level and ApexHawk is right: move slowly, attck to get damage, and then your caberjacks to stun to buy extra time. I would almost want to say that with battles with Bulwarks three caberjacks wil ensure victory. And don't be afraid to run out of sight.

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I'm just going to say I disagree. Sure, only needing to research one type of armor and weapons gives a slight edge, but If you only field one class the combat becomes more monotonous and grindy. having the classes interact and play off each other is one of the cool things about the game!

I was giving advice on how to more easily overcome the challenges of the game, not increase the breadth of the experience.

If you want to play the game optimally or are having some problems you will want to specialize in a class. This will of course decrease the variety of the experience, but it is currently the right option for making the games challenges easier to overcome.

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I'm just going to say I disagree. Sure, only needing to research one type of armor and weapons gives a slight edge, but If you only field one class the combat becomes more monotonous and grindy. having the classes interact and play off each other is one of the cool things about the game!

I was giving advice on how to overcome the challenges of the game easier, not increase the breadth of the of it.

If you want to play the game optimally or are having some problems you will want to specialize in a class. This will of course decrease the variety of the experience, but it is currently the right option for making the games challenges easier to overcome.

Trust in the caberjack. Alchemists self bombing your own squad when you are starting your first new game can be kind of ...

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Can you give more details on what you are having difficulty with specifically?

I feel like my biggest problem is that around year 50-60 it starts feeling like my heroes are all really underlevled for the monsters I'm fighting. It's rare to have anyone at level 3 and I've yet to see anyone higher. They just get flattened in two hits and die. Which then makes the problem worse, as I'm stuck with lower level raw recruits.

That and it seems like a good quarter to a third of my heroes are all infertile. I'm pretty sure that I'm doing something wrong in regard to the bloodline section of the game, but I don't really know what I'm doing wrong. This game feels incredibly complex and there's not a whole lot of guidance for that. The tutorial threads have helped, but it still seems a tad confusing.

What's worse is it seems like my second generation is inheriting all of the bad traits and none of the good ones. My Caberjack bloodline is all Asthmatic, Puny, and Slow, for example. Not one of them inherited Bear Strength.

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Can you give more details on what you are having difficulty with specifically?

I feel like my biggest problem is that around year 50-60 it starts feeling like my heroes are all really underlevled for the monsters I'm fighting. It's rare to have anyone at level 3 and I've yet to see anyone higher. They just get flattened in two hits and die. Which then makes the problem worse, as I'm stuck with lower level raw recruits.

That and it seems like a good quarter to a third of my heroes are all infertile. I'm pretty sure that I'm doing something wrong in regard to the bloodline section of the game, but I don't really know what I'm doing wrong. This game feels incredibly complex and there's not a whole lot of guidance for that. The tutorial threads have helped, but it still seems a tad confusing.

What's worse is it seems like my second generation is inheriting all of the bad traits and none of the good ones. My Caberjack bloodline is all Asthmatic, Puny, and Slow, for example. Not one of them inherited Bear Strength.

It's important not to always focus on the small stuff. I've had bad batches of children, and good batches. Each game lasts 300 years. Don't panic ahead of schedule. In my current play through the Alchemist bloodline basically never came out 'functional' and so I ended up maximizing my Caberjacks instead. You are right, there is a lot of stuff that seems to happen in the background that's harder to manage.

On Hero Husbandry. Any two heroes with the same trait are supposed to be more likely to sire offspring with that trait. I think if you can keep a tab on this, and report the failure of this 'supposed to' it'd be beneficial for Double Fine. But there are a few things you can do to help offset this. I've decided that much of the Bloodline management is trying to get small adjustments, sometimes you have a fantastic pairing, but don't expect it and consider that if you wait for a great pairing infertility is a risk. There really seems to be a sort of, "If you don't use it you'll lose it." when it comes to fertility.

Recruiting a new batch of heroes is a good idea. Adoption is also a good way to pop in a few random variables to a Bloodline. Standard bearers and parents give different traits, the Standbard bearer only gives a % at Personality traits. Sometimes I took a good Hero who was a decent level and made him a standard simply because he had no bad Personality traits. It's also a good idea, if you start to get a Bloodline going good, to double up, and get two/three Regents from that bloodline into different Keeps at the same time. It's a bit of a risk though, my Caberjacks were occasionally full of infertile 15 year olds (Don't inbreed, I'm not 100% but that might have been what brought that into the Bloodline). I never researched fertility boost, but I might in my next play through. Final note, watch out for Kingmaker/Queenmaker. My Caberjacks were predominately male, male, and ... male. Because Kingmaker took over for about 200 years.

So far I feel like the first 100 years and the last 50-100 years are the worst. For the first 50 years or so it's very important to have Cabers and Hunters (for the Hero saving 1 h.p. last hit) and be cowardly, scout, scout, run-away. But there are going to be times when the Monsters are more powerful. I've tried to avoid save scumming, and I don't want to get bogged down early replaying a map. So my general rule of thumb is, unless I lost an entire squad of Heroes, I didn't reload. If I did lose an entire Squad, I played the map differently (there come times when you're Alchemist/Hunters accuracy is too low too reliably last hit and you have to try to get their damage output ahead of caberjacks). When in doubt, Charge. Yes. You will lose Caberjacks, but you won't lose the entire squad, because you've knocked away the threat.

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I feel like my biggest problem is that around year 50-60 it starts feeling like my heroes are all really underlevled for the monsters I'm fighting. It's rare to have anyone at level 3 and I've yet to see anyone higher. They just get flattened in two hits and die. Which then makes the problem worse, as I'm stuck with lower level raw recruits.

Try building your first crucible second or third. Either after the first keep or a keep and an item.

Also, and this further suggests you might want more hunters, do your best to avoid getting hit. You can move back and fire in the same turn, bring units with increased sight or leave a stealthed hunter ahead of the group and shoot from far away so units can't reach and hit you in 1 turn (just make sure the enemy pathing won't walk by them to reveal them).

That and it seems like a good quarter to a third of my heroes are all infertile. I'm pretty sure that I'm doing something wrong in regard to the bloodline section of the game, but I don't really know what I'm doing wrong. This game feels incredibly complex and there's not a whole lot of guidance for that. The tutorial threads have helped, but it still seems a tad confusing.

What's worse is it seems like my second generation is inheriting all of the bad traits and none of the good ones. My Caberjack bloodline is all Asthmatic, Puny, and Slow, for example. Not one of them inherited Bear Strength.

Yeah, this is as much a reason to stick to fewer classes as the cost to upgrade multiple. The more you have of a particular type the less you have to worry about the luck of the inheritance, put the poor children with bad genes in your guild use the others.

Upgrade armor early, and another reason that Hunters stand out is that veil armor is so incredibly good and accessible very early in the game.

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Currently, there are no built in difficulties for the game. Difficulty is all over the place for now. In one game you might have all sorts of xp bonus regions and a few very good starting heros. In another game you might have fertility and building bonuses and mostly terrible heros. Not only do those two games play very differently, the second example is generally harder to deal with due to lower levels and poorer traits of your heros.

With a lot of experience you can beat the worst case scenario (maybe, I didn't do great on every attempt). Until then, you might have to restart your campaign a few times to get a start you can go to town with. Any campaign with the XP boost for killing cadence is great. Slam your second Keep right down on there and feel the wonder of bonus XP. Any game that includes relatively decent heros with the Bountiful trait is pretty nice too.

Have some higher level characters ready for years 40+. You can do this making sure one of the two heros you retire into a keep as regent and partner are high level. Any children they give will be that same high level when they grow up! So your first keep should probably have a level 2 hero in it (or level 3 if you are really lucky). When that second generation of heros grows up, get them into combat in preference to your aging heros, because you'll be able to level them up to level 3 or 4 in time for the Bulwark invasion. Your aging heros may die before the Bulwarks arrive and then they do you no good.

Caberjacks with Refined Caberjack armor are nearly immune to Bulwarks. All hits from Bulwarks become 1-2 damage each. If you have a Caberjack Keep, it can be an excellent strategy to research that first armor upgrade for them and have them at the forefront absorbing Bulwark damage. A level 2 or 3 Caberjack with Refined armor can usually soak up 10 Bulwark hits without dying.

I also agree with trying to get Steady Hander fairly early. If you can get your accuracy up near 100% in time for the Bulwark invasion, you can count on your melee guys to not do glancing attacks. Getting a glancing blow on a Bulwark is the worst.

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Well, chalk up another loss for me. Though thanks to your kind advice I did get the farthest yet. I got to year 85 before I really knew that I'd lost!

But still, I'm growing more frustrated and I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Well, I do know that what I'm doing wrong has to be in the domain management side of things. I was doing quite well in the battles up until I didn't have any more heroes or the heroes I had were woefully underleveled.

But man, the domain part is just way too hard! But this time I wrote down my research order and a few notes so that maybe I can get some better advice. So here's what I did.

First Keep was stocked with my two highest level Hunters with some decent stats (Tranquil AND Hawkeye!). This first bloodline served me quite well for the first 40-50 years.

I then noticed that I had a few decent bonus regions. A Increased Dex for Hunters and an Increased Intelligence for Alchemists.

Recruited New Heroes

Built Keep (+Dex for Hunters) and installed my best two hunters. Combined with the first keep I was flush with good hunters for a while.

Steady Hander - this was a HUGE boon. Thanks for the suggestion!

Keep (+Int for Alchemists) - installed the only alchemists I had and they didn't produce a SINGLE child. And they were BOUNTIFUL!

Crucible - Installed one of my best Hunters with Tranquil. I don't think I really saw a benefit.

Recruit New Heroes - was hoping for an Alchemist to replace the dead one in the keep. Only one I got was infertile. Installed it anyway.

Adopted a baby girl - Installed in alchemist keep just to get A child.

Keep (XP Bonus) - Installed a Caberjack, as I really needed them and had NONE beyond the regent and consort.

Recruited New Heroes - around this time my second generation had died off and I wasn't getting anything to replace them. I think this was when things just turned on me and I should have just quit.

Hunter Armor - Pointless at this point, as I was already under leveled and nearly out of heroes.

It was all downhill from there.

Having gotten this far, I have NO IDEA how you guys can play with just two keeps. I had THREE and couldn't keep up with attrition due to old age. I went the first 60 years without a single combat death and I was still running out of heroes just due to old age. I don't think my Alchemist or Caberjack keeps every produced a single child. And I made sure that both were young and had at least average fertility (save for when I was alchemist blocked and resorted to adoption).

Where did I screw up? What am I doing wrong still? I feel like I have a decent handle on the combats, but the monsters quickly start outpacing me around year 60 or so. You guys have been great so far, now I'm looking for a bit more help!

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Not sure what happened with your alchemists and caber keeps. That might of just been bad luck, I never had that problem.

Who are you choosing as regents?

I always picked my youngest of the class I wanted with decent traits and personality. This gave them the longest time for reproduction. This would often mean 15-20.

Try:

1 Keep

2 Crucible

3 Steady Hander

4 Keep

5 Recruit/Viel Armor

6 Recruit/Viel Armor

You said you didn't lose anyone in combat for the first 60 years, what caused you to lose people after that? And how many did you lose? What squad are you bringing into fight?

Also if you are having significant XP problems have one fairly young character kill as much as you can get them to and then throw them in the crucible. You should be able to get at least a 3rd or 4th level character in the crucible by the time it is ready.

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Sounds like the Random Number Generator got you there. That's one of the things I meant when talking about a lack of balance in the game at this stage. There is nothing that prevents a pair who should be producing a dozen children or more (via bountiful) to randomly have none instead. If that happens very early on, you will be screwed.

I talked about problems with Fertility Rates here, but nobody else really commented. Presumably because nobody disagreed? I don't know.

Hopefully, when they get around to difficulty balancing, they'll look at that.

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It really does sound like you got hit hard with the Random and the problems with balance. With that set up, you should have still had heroes coming out the ears. They've said that they are introducing low fertility as a trait and drastically reducing the occurrence of infertile (I think in the next patch), so that should take care of that one problem. That bountiful issue though . . .I've never run into it, but I've heard about it before and it seems like a big issue. Either there is a bug, we don't have all the info on how babies are calculated, or the percentage chance just kept missing, which seems like a problem.

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I don't think RNG is the issue it feels like something is broken.

I played a couple of time to get a feel for things then checked out some posts for info and a couple of videos but I am personally getting quite frustrated with the bloodlines. It seems to be skewed with far too many negative traits.

Once I had an idea of where I needed to focus, I attempted over a dozen restarts but I'm finding it extremely hard to get viable bloodlines. Marrying heroes with high fertility (and often the bountiful trait) is not resulting in enough usable offspring. I'm taking care to chose desirable traits and even checking siblings for undesirable recessives but I'm an just not getting the progression I need. Time and time again I end up with either not enough heroes or heroes that are lacking the traits I bred for.

- I'm not trying to min max I'm just looking for workable bloodlines.

- I can handle the combat even against the bulwarks with careful micromanagement.

- I'm doing one research for additional heroes early in the game to bolster my roster and give me additional partner choices for my regents.

- I'm keeping to 2 or 3 keeps then adding a guild.

I really like the concept but the bloodline are doing my head in. Maybe it's just been a string of bad luck but sit down and restart the game a bunch of times look at your starting roster, their traits and their siblings traits.

The balance seems off and even when you do get a good starting pair (traits wise) they struggle to perpetuate.

Right now frustration and 'not fun' are what I'm feeling and the only thing keeping me going are the fresh concept and obvious potential.

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When you say "I got to year 85 before I really knew that I’d lost!" that makes me wonder if you're bailing out too soon.

In XCOM, the deal is that if you lose a couple of times that's probably impossible to claw back from. But in this game, since the stable of heroes is always being recycled, it is possible to weather a couple of losses, even in a row, and bounce back from that as a new generation comes in.

Have you tried just powering through and continuing anyway? You might find that the tide starts to turn and the next part of the game gives you a bit more breathing space.

Incidentally, I don't think the bloodline inheritance thing is particularly broken. I've had no real troubles getting viable heroes in my games, and I don't think that was just luck.

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I ... had 5 keeps in my last run, and lost 2 eventually. But that way I didn't lose my two good bloodlines (Hunters and Cabers).

Right now frustration and 'not fun' are what I'm feeling and the only thing keeping me going are the fresh concept and obvious potential.

I agree with this. This really feels like a Beta, and it's important to remember that. Fine tuning is tough work.

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When you say "I got to year 85 before I really knew that I’d lost!" that makes me wonder if you're bailing out too soon.

I had 1 active hero, age 67. My youngest regent was 78 and none were partnered. I had no trainees left.

So as a last ditch I recruited more heroes. I had all of two females, and one of those was infertile.

I've played through the entire game at least twice. And there was no way a bunch of level 1 scrubs we're going to beat wrinkles and bulwarks. Especially with no armor or weapons research.

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Personally, I mashed on the recruit heroes button 3 or 4 times in the first 80 years. Even when I didn't feel like I particularly needed it at first, I was aware that there was an initial death spike coming when all my original heroes began to die of old age. I didn't really feel stable until I had 4 keeps running around the 120 year mark.

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Not trying to be negative just reporting my experience but I'm starting to get annoyed.

Just quit my last play through. Two Hunter bloodlines with good fertility and acceptable traits failed to breed sustainably. Minimal losses in combat supplemented and by a recruitment within the first 20-30 years.

So I sat down and just restarted over 20 times and checked the line-up each time ... Wasn't pretty.

Again negative traits and personality issues outweighed the good markedly every time. Particularly annoying that so very often the starting heroes had traits that were counter to their chosen class. Puny Caberjacks, clumsy Hunters were far too common. It feels wrong as well. If these heroes have a class they were suited to you would expect them to at least have an affinity to their calling. I don't have an issue with randomness in fact it is essential to be able to work towards breeding out bad traits and getting viable bloodlines but I kinda expect that each hero should have at least one or two starting perks that play true to the class they are playing.

Again, I'm not trying to min/max but I seriously only found one line-up that had one hero that had promise for a starting bloodline.

I know folks have had better luck than me but sorry it truly feels off now.

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I don't think it's a good idea to hurry focus on the traits first. Eventually avoid really negative traits for the class, but don't aim no negative traits nor many good. At first the point is to level up heroes through the level up of regents.

Later you'll refine the traits through the crucibles. Level up is the most important element for combats. And during first parts level plus fertility and no traits favoring sons or daughters is the most important for keeps.

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Some posts complaining here about bloodlines are in my opinion related to the bizarre negativity of the game. It makes you choose among the less bad. That's a problem but also it's the part of the global gameplay, to have something to improve. If you start with the good traits there's less to improve along the game.

In my opinion it would have been better to use a positive way, ensure overall a better positivity of traits and allows improve for even better along the game. There's the same point for events, when I get from them something cool it's great, something negative it's meh and ok I'll do with it but no fun. But there's probably a balance and negative points is required, but still I think overall the game could have a less negative spirit. It's just a comment, it's certainly too late to change.

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Yes. Right now, early on it's far more important to build up a base of heroes than to worry about traits. Obviously pick the best traits you can, but over time you can address bad traits.

Also, liberal use of recruit heroes is definitely advisable at the start, as not only does it help deal with low hero levels at the start, but also helps diversify bloodlines to choose from to establish your first few keeps.

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The strong need for the recruit hero option, especially early on, keeps bothering me because it feels like it goes against the grain of the bloodline part of the game. If I'm creating a legacy, then I should be building that legacy from the beginning, not depending on recruitment. It's something problematic that I can't quite put my finger on.

I guess it feels like a lot of the time it's hard to found a bloodline, while it feels like it might be better to be able to easily found a bloodline and the struggle is in keeping the bloodline alive . . . .

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I know it was a problem that came up again and again in the Teamstreams because they couldn't have trainees without keeps (and so starting heroes could only be so young). So I have no solution, but it does feel off still.

Then again, with the bloodline selector maybe one of them is an already established family? This would maintain control . . . .

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With the current changes to building research times, you can't put a more than a couple of bloodlines into keeps before your starter heros get too old to breed. If you want new bloodlines after year 30, you simply need to use mission reward heros or lean on Recruit Hero to create new bloodlines. The other option is to spread the bloodlines you establish in the first decade or two into additional keeps and hope you can breed the bad traits out as you go.

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With the current changes to building research times, you can't put a more than a couple of bloodlines into keeps before your starter heros get too old to breed. If you want new bloodlines after year 30, you simply need to use mission reward heros or lean on Recruit Hero to create new bloodlines. The other option is to spread the bloodlines you establish in the first decade or two into additional keeps and hope you can breed the bad traits out as you go.

I did 5 keeps and less item/weapon research than I did in my only other attempt to make it past 150 years. Worked okay.

I think that you may be expecting too much of your heroes. One of the things that appealed to me, about this game is what attracted me to Rogue Legacy, imperfect "Heroes" amuses me. However there are problems that make certain traits too much of a detriment, to my experience. Shorter vision range, and low intuition being two things I'd try to avoid. But your rarely going to get ideal results. These are imperfect Heroes. Unfortunately from what I'm gathering here the humanizing effect of this imperfection isn't so much making the Heroes more unique or individual, but less functional as game components? Am I over stating some of the reactions here?

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