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matthansen

Day of the Tentacle: Special Edition Wish List Features

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Hmm, sounds kind of boring? I prefer when you could come up with different sound styles instead of this "real" instruments pressure.

Hey, (mis)use an overtoner and you can sound as cheesy as fuck with a "real" instrument.

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I guess that is what I never understood. Why would someone want to hear the old music?

It's not like the music is totally different. The focus on remastering the music was to replace any cheesy synth tracks with real instruments. This was mostly the piano and guitar parts. Peter wanted to re-record those, and it had been bugging him for a while before this opportunity came up. Is the nostalgia in the how the cheesy synth instruments sounded? The tracks that we had done with the symphony are amazing. I guess I just don't see why those wouldn't be the preference. I am just trying to wrap my head around this.

We want to release a soundtrack at some point, but that was not part of the original deal. It is something we have been discussing for a very long time, so maybe some day.

Adding support for DLC into an engine from 1998 is a lot harder than you might think. It would have pushed out the release date, and I am not sure the value added would have been worth it.

I think some people probably want to just have the original preserved -- of course it IS preserved, thanks to virtual machines and/or ResidualVM, and in fact, the original music COULD be added back in manually, using the original game files, if anyone actually wished for it THAT badly.

This game is just so well loved, that really I don't think you could have ever given us enough Grim Fandango. There's just something that really came together and created something unbelievably special, and that has stuck with a lot of people for the past 15 years.

Personally I'm LOVING the Remaster. I'm finally enjoying Grim Fandango in the manner I've wanted to for years. The new camera-relative controls are a REVELATION, and something that never crossed my mind as a way to make the game more enjoyable to play. The new lighting is WONDERFUL as well. And the new music is adding tons to an already atmospheric game. I'm savouring being back in this world again, in the best possible version.

Thank you!

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I guess that is what I never understood. Why would someone want to hear the old music?

It's not like the music is totally different. The focus on remastering the music was to replace any cheesy synth tracks with real instruments. This was mostly the piano and guitar parts. Peter wanted to re-record those, and it had been bugging him for a while before this opportunity came up. Is the nostalgia in the how the cheesy synth instruments sounded? The tracks that we had done with the symphony are amazing. I guess I just don't see why those wouldn't be the preference. I am just trying to wrap my head around this.

We want to release a soundtrack at some point, but that was not part of the original deal. It is something we have been discussing for a very long time, so maybe some day.

Adding support for DLC into an engine from 1998 is a lot harder than you might think. It would have pushed out the release date, and I am not sure the value added would have been worth it.

I think some people probably want to just have the original preserved -- of course it IS preserved, thanks to virtual machines and/or ResidualVM, and in fact, the original music COULD be added back in manually, using the original game files, if anyone actually wished for it THAT badly.

This game is just so well loved, that really I don't think you could have ever given us enough Grim Fandango. There's just something that really came together and created something unbelievably special, and that has stuck with a lot of people for the past 15 years.

Personally I'm LOVING the Remaster. I'm finally enjoying Grim Fandango in the manner I've wanted to for years. The new camera-relative controls are a REVELATION, and something that never crossed my mind as a way to make the game more enjoyable to play. I'm savouring being back in this world again, in the best possible version.

Thank you!

That made my day, ThunderPeel. I know you are big part of the Grim community, so that means a lot coming from you.

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That made my day, ThunderPeel. I know you are big part of the Grim community, so that means a lot coming from you.

Thank YOU, Matt! I'm loving spending time in that world again -- I feel like I'm playing the game again for the first time.

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Hmm, sounds kind of boring? I prefer when you could come up with different sound styles instead of this "real" instruments pressure.

Hey, (mis)use an overtoner and you can sound as cheesy as fuck with a "real" instrument.

Synths are great, but real instruments just work better with the style that DOTT is trying to achieve.

This just conveys the classic cartoon feel that the game was going for.

I wish I could hear it in person.

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I guess that is what I never understood. Why would someone want to hear the old music?

In this case, my interest is academic - jsut for the sake of comparing and better appreciating the remastered version's soundtrack.

We want to release a soundtrack at some point, but that was not part of the original deal. It is something we have been discussing for a very long time, so maybe some day.

It'd be neat! I can imagine that there are a lot of people who'd like to get their hands on the soundtrack.

Adding support for DLC into an engine from 1998 is a lot harder than you might think. It would have pushed out the release date, and I am not sure the value added would have been worth it.

For extra commentary/developer insights, maybe, but definitely not for the original soundtrack.

I think some people probably want to just have the original preserved -- of course it IS preserved, thanks to virtual machines and/or ResidualVM, and in fact, the original music COULD be added back in manually, using the original game files, if anyone actually wished for it THAT badly.

It's worth noting that ResidualVM only preserves the engine, not the game content itself.

This game is just so well loved, that really I don't think you could have ever given us enough Grim Fandango. There's just something that really came together and created something unbelievably special, and that has stuck with a lot of people for the past 15 years.

Personally I'm LOVING the Remaster. I'm finally enjoying Grim Fandango in the manner I've wanted to for years. The new camera-relative controls are a REVELATION, and something that never crossed my mind as a way to make the game more enjoyable to play. The new lighting is WONDERFUL as well. And the new music is adding tons to an already atmospheric game. I'm savouring being back in this world again, in the best possible version.

Thank you!

Well said, ThunderPeel! This echoes some of my feelings that I wrote about at launch (although I think I'd still go for tank controls over camera relative controls when not using mouse input :D ).

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I disagree, electronic sounds could work perfectly fine for DOTT.

I find this stereotypical approach, based on the false assumption that "real" instruments enhance any audio experience, wrong. Actually the opposite happened more often, authenticity was lost and due to not this strong compositions and a few other reasons it resulted into less exciting music.

Would you like to see "real" instruments in a Full Throttle remake? Yep

In DOTT? Nope. There it comes with no real benefit, no surprise, no real remake of the music. Moreover DOTT's music isn't as strong as the soundtrack from GF and an electronic mood fits to the DOTT style as well (no idea how much they change the art but i would be surprised if the come up with something different like in The DFA [and also there an electronic soundtrack could have been cool]).

So ...

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My number one wish is nailing the animation. The original did a great job of evoking a sort of classic Looney Tunes or Tex Avery style, and preserving that in HD is going to take more than just a simple vector trace of the original sprites. It may require some added frames too as HD animation tends to seem less smooth than its pixel art counterparts.

Beyond that it's pretty obvious. Full-screen widescreen without the bulky interface at the bottom, recorded music instead of MIDI, and the ability to switch back and forth between the original versions on the fly.

Oh, one important thing, is that new features should be able to be disabled on an individual basis. The Monkey Island remake let you disable the horrific new graphics, but with it went the new audio, and the new interface. Terrible. I should be able to choose which improvements to use.

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I guess that is what I never understood. Why would someone want to hear the old music?

In the case of a lot of these old LucasArts games like DoTT, most people never got to hear the soundtrack the way it was meant, on a Roland MT-32 or similar high-end MIDI card. I think a lot of purists wanting to play the game as it originally was would be happy to hear the game as it was originally meant to be heard rather than how their terrible SoundBlaster played it.

Like, this is how DoTT was supposed to sound, but most people never got to hear it like that:

It's not like the music is totally different. The focus on remastering the music was to replace any cheesy synth tracks with real instruments. This was mostly the piano and guitar parts. Peter wanted to re-record those, and it had been bugging him for a while before this opportunity came up. Is the nostalgia in the how the cheesy synth instruments sounded? The tracks that we had done with the symphony are amazing. I guess I just don't see why those wouldn't be the preference. I am just trying to wrap my head around this.

In the case of Grim, the new music isn't very controversial, but as a matter of practice it's always best to make any improvements optional. Tank controls are still an option, the old 640x480 ugly renderer is an option, so why not the old audio too?

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Well said, ThunderPeel! This echoes some of my feelings that I wrote about at launch (although I think I'd still go for tank controls over camera relative controls when not using mouse input :D ).

IMHO:

Tank controls = keyboard

Camera relative = controller

:)

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I'm curious what Dave Grossman, Ron Gilbert and Gary Winnick think about a remaster. From what I read Ron Gilbert didn't want to get back into things if he can't own the IP, so do they have any opinion on what the remaster should entail? I'd love to see the four of them interviewed or documented discussing what should and shouldn't be done. Do they care or are they all so focused on their new stuff that they don't really want to be involved?

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I disagree, electronic sounds could work perfectly fine for DOTT.

I find this stereotypical approach, based on the false assumption that "real" instruments enhance any audio experience, wrong. Actually the opposite happened more often, authenticity was lost and due to not this strong compositions and a few other reasons it resulted into less exciting music.

Would you like to see "real" instruments in a Full Throttle remake? Yep

In DOTT? Nope. There it comes with no real benefit, no surprise, no real remake of the music. Moreover DOTT's music isn't as strong as the soundtrack from GF and an electronic mood fits to the DOTT style as well (no idea how much they change the art but i would be surprised if the come up with something different like in The DFA [and also there an electronic soundtrack could have been cool]).

So ...

You are just a unique case, then. Most people, mainly people who never heard of this game before, will prefer the real instruments. It will sound better to them.

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I disagree (to a certain degree) on this one as well, actually it's a known issue.

You could come up with quite some composers who had their best moments with characteristic electronic sounds.

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I'm curious what Dave Grossman, Ron Gilbert and Gary Winnick think about a remaster. From what I read Ron Gilbert didn't want to get back into things if he can't own the IP, so do they have any opinion on what the remaster should entail? I'd love to see the four of them interviewed or documented discussing what should and shouldn't be done. Do they care or are they all so focused on their new stuff that they don't really want to be involved?

I will find out very soon. Dave is a good friend of mine (we sat next to each other for 3 years at Telltale), so based on what I know about him I think he will be excited that the game is going to be available for a new audience. Ron and Gary have their Kickstarter for the spiritual successor for Maniac Mansion (which looks amazing), so DOTT:SE is only going to bring more attention to their project.

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I disagree (to a certain degree) on this one as well, actually it's a known issue.

You could come up with quite some composers who had their best moments with characteristic electronic sounds.

I am really going to leave the creative direction for how the music is treated on DOTT:SE to Peter Mc. I believe that he was going for a Danny Elfman inspired approach. Most of that inspiration comes from Danny Elfman's real instrument compositions.

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I think the best choice is to have two versions of the soundtrack that can be toggled. One using the hardware it was originally composed on. The other with the enhanced music.

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@matthansen

You have to differ. a) It's certainly the best to let him decide what to do as he knows the best what he can/wants to do, corresponding to what for instance Schafer has in mind for the game as well. b) But regardless of this, looking at this specific game/music and video games generally, there exist certain issues where (as we called them in this thread) "real instruments" and orchestration are overrated due to some of the reasons i've tried to come up with.

You can take each hardware generation and start with the SID if you want to, without a certain type of sound lots of game music would be boring (due to that they sound too familiar, weak compositions, a lack of restrictions you had to deal with, ...) and the variety of electronic music is huge, actually its hard to draw the line where things start and stop. So, i'll repeat myself (for the last time :o), i certainly prefer an electronic route for this one, and this opinion is built independently of what McConnell was aiming for, just a feeling when looking at the game.

peace

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I think the best choice is to have two versions of the soundtrack that can be toggled. One using the hardware it was originally composed on. The other with the enhanced music.

Agreed. That is what I was thinking too.

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I would like the voice acting sound files to be better.

I would like to play DOTT:SE on my Android device, because my pc is yeah old version of Window.

I hope the wacky fonts stays (not sure if this is any easier for others to read) .

I would like an art browser just like Grim Fandango, possibly with annotation below the art (haven't played GF yet) .

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I'm not sure if I would like for all the verbs to be simplified down to a different interface. Thats just the way the game the was designed (even if that interface-style seems to be outdated) and I always liked it.

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Also on the music topic, DoTT is an iMuse title, right? I recall reading briefly about the work that had gone into the Monkey 2 special edition with regards to getting real instruments to give a performance that fit with the way that the game's soundtrack behaved, but I can't seem to find it now and IIRC it only mentioned that it was a hurdle and wasn't very detailed. It'd be neat to hear about how this is tackled for DoTT.

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@matthansen

You have to differ. a) It's certainly the best to let him decide what to do as he knows the best what he can/wants to do, corresponding to what for instance Schafer has in mind for the game as well. b) But regardless of this, looking at this specific game/music and video games generally, there exist certain issues where (as we called them in this thread) "real instruments" and orchestration are overrated due to some of the reasons i've tried to come up with.

You can take each hardware generation and start with the SID if you want to, without a certain type of sound lots of game music would be boring (due to that they sound too familiar, weak compositions, a lack of restrictions you had to deal with, ...) and the variety of electronic music is huge, actually its hard to draw the line where things start and stop. So, i'll repeat myself (for the last time :o), i certainly prefer an electronic route for this one, and this opinion is built independently of what McConnell was aiming for, just a feeling when looking at the game.

peace

It's not appropriate for DOTT. It just doesn't work stylistically.

Perhaps if DOTT were made today, it could have a synthy soundtrack, but DOTT was made over 20 years ago. The soundtrack used acoustic instruments. It's not up for debate. This isn't a re-imagining. It's an enhanced version of the original game.

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Also on the music topic, DoTT is an iMuse title, right? I recall reading briefly about the work that had gone into the Monkey 2 special edition with regards to getting real instruments to give a performance that fit with the way that the game's soundtrack behaved, but I can't seem to find it now and IIRC it only mentioned that it was a hurdle and wasn't very detailed. It'd be neat to hear about how this is tackled for DoTT.

Grim used a version of iMuse too. It was a pain to use, but it let us preserve all of those dynamic music transitions. DOTT actually has a lot more of those. MI:SE used FMOD (I believe) instead of iMuse, so they didn't have those music transitions, or they were pre-baked. We will be looking into changing the engine back to use iMuse, but until we dig in we won't know how difficult it will be in the current version of SCUMM.

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Also on the music topic, DoTT is an iMuse title, right? I recall reading briefly about the work that had gone into the Monkey 2 special edition with regards to getting real instruments to give a performance that fit with the way that the game's soundtrack behaved, but I can't seem to find it now and IIRC it only mentioned that it was a hurdle and wasn't very detailed. It'd be neat to hear about how this is tackled for DoTT.

I believe LucasArts did emulate the IMuse engine with recorded music for MI2. I think DoubleFine has access to that code.

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Here's a detailed interview with a couple of the folks who worked on the Monkey Island 2: Special Edition soundtrack. They talk about what they had to do to recreate the iMuse transitions.

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Grim used a version of iMuse too. It was a pain to use, but it let us preserve all of those dynamic music transitions.

Sweet. I hope that the commentary touches on that more later on in the game (I haven't found any mention of it yet, and the documentary didn't talk about it at all). That stuff is really interesting.

DOTT actually has a lot more of those. MI:SE used FMOD (I believe) instead of iMuse, so they didn't have those music transitions, or they were pre-baked. We will be looking into changing the engine back to use iMuse, but until we dig in we won't know how difficult it will be in the current version of SCUMM.

IIRC, Monkey 2 was the first iMuse game, so it'd make sense that the Monkey 1 special edition didn't use that). When you say changing back, does this mean that you'll be starting from an engine version that doesn't have iMuse in it (I'm guessing that this would be the existing special edition efforts from LucasArts)?

Here's a detailed interview with a couple of the folks who worked on the Monkey Island 2: Special Edition soundtrack. They talk about what they had to do to recreate the iMuse transitions.

Oh nice. Thanks for that!

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This is one game I have never played before. (I think I have played all of the other Lucas Arts and Double Fine games.) How exciting!

1. DRM-free version. Some of your games are available without DRM, and some are not. There I have not detected a pattern.

2. Sound upgrade. Old games sound like 50% white noise, 50% content sometimes. Not desirable!

3. Commentaries are absolute must! I prefer the more technical comments, like programming challenges and pointing out innovation.

Optional but Fun:

1. Hint system, or better, a new sarcastic walkthrough voiceover. Better to not leave the game to get a hint if wanted because immersion will break.

2. Optional extra dialogue for all the "I can't use that with that," in the original game, if any.

3. Soundtrack remixes.

It is hard to say about art. The Monkey Island Special edition I do not like so much because the art is just "good," but the original is remembered for "fantastic" art. Ducktales Remastered is an example of a good art remake, with clear care and attention paid to the art. Perhaps an artstyle similar to King of the Hill or Bevis and Butthead with thin distinct outlines and flat colors would fit well if pixel art is no longer wanted. Original art looked like a cartoon with clear outlines. If you are keeping the pixel art, adding more animation frames would be another way to upgrade perhaps?

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1. DRM-free version. Some of your games are available without DRM, and some are not. There I have not detected a pattern.
It depends on the publisher. If Double Fine publishes it themselves, they always release a DRM-free version. If not, then they usually have to wait until the rights revert back to them before a DRM-free version is available, which is the case in most of their games (except Iron Brigade which apparently won't revert automatically to Double Fine since they went with a restrictive deal with Microsoft (as Tim Schafer revealed in an interview with Game Informer), and presumably the other Xbox only titles, such as Double Fine Happy Action Theater, Kinect TV, and Once Upon A Monster). If their deal with Sony is the same for Day of the Tentacle as it was for Grim Fandango (which it appears to be), then Double Fine will be publishing the computer versions themselves, meaning there will be a DRM-free version available for the Day of the Tentacle Special Edition too.

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Here's a detailed interview with a couple of the folks who worked on the Monkey Island 2: Special Edition soundtrack. They talk about what they had to do to recreate the iMuse transitions.

Thanks for sharing that. All the iMuse transitions were in place for MI2:SE.

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MI:SE used FMOD (I believe) instead of iMuse, so they didn't have those music transitions, or they were pre-baked. We will be looking into changing the engine back to use iMuse, but until we dig in we won't know how difficult it will be in the current version of SCUMM.

You should definitely check out the Jesse Harlin and Wilbert Roget interview that's been linked to here, Matt. A pair of developers solved the iMuse issue when they made MI2:SE (the iMuse transitions were perfectly digitally replicated):

Quote: "In addition to creating an iMUSE-like system that would work with digital audio (instead of just MIDI, as the original game was authored), we also had to figure out how to make this extremely complicated interactive music system work exactly the same on the PC, Xbox, and PS3 as it would on the iPhone and iPad. There were lots of discussions about available middleware options like Wwise or FMOD, but in the end the only option that really would work is for Singapore to build their own digitial music system that would replicate iMUSE functionality."

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