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Greg Rice

Broken Age Act 2 Development at Beta!

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Yes, it is a completely made up statistic.

83% of all statistics are made up in the moment.

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Tim Schafer, I tip my hat to you for being such a decent, stand up kind of guy, and for doing all that you do. I'm really sick of the social media pile on and wish people would just remember to be decent to each other.

Keep on keeping on, and I can't wait for Act 2.

Greg

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I realize I'm the minority in thinking the way I do and that largely accounts for how frustrated I feel.

If I blame Kickstarter and/or the project managers at all, I would say that it is unfortunate that these parties were not able to sooner identify and handle the misperceptions about what kickstarter even is and what it means to "back" something as opposed to "pay for" something.

I do have more sympathy for people who did not receive their backer rewards, since that is a completely different animal, but my sympathy there might also depend on certain conditions.

Except in the rare case of actual demonstrable swindling, the notion that "I GAVE YOU MONEY ON KICKSTARTER WHERE IS THE GAME" has no legs to stand on, as far as I'm concerned.

Fair enough. All these problems with my backer rewards could be solved by transparency but what I'm getting is opacity and my patience is wearing thinner than a sheet of paper. At least Double Fine has the courtesy of giving us periodic updates with the progress. I backed other projects and they're giving me updates too. It's just the opaque ones that are grinding my gears.

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Yeah, let's say that the communication has really gone a long way. It's true that there have been quiet patches, but honestly in 3 years I'd be more surprised if there weren't. On the whole, while sometimes we've wanted more frequent, smaller updates, we've always known where the project is, and nobody following the updates I think has ever had any serious reason to doubt that this game would be finished and the rewards delivered.

Unfortunately, that is not the outside perception. I have, many times, seen outsiders express cynicism about the likelihood of the game coming out, and I think that's where backers (if they want) could be a bit more active in responding to that. If I see someone on twitter or on some news article express bewilderment that the game isn't out or doubt it'll ever come out, I usually take the time to leave a quick, polite note saying something like 'Actually backers are being kept well up to date, part 2 looks close to finished, and we're expecting it in the spring.' Perhaps adding, if it seems relevant 'The extra delay is probably because of the additional retail and Playstation releases they announced a short while back.'

It's surprising how often I get a reply something along the lines of 'Oh, I didn't know that, thanks' or at LEAST something more like 'Well, that's interesting but I guess we'll have to wait and see'

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Yeah, let's say that the communication has really gone a long way. It's true that there have been quiet patches, but honestly in 3 years I'd be more surprised if there weren't. On the whole, while sometimes we've wanted more frequent, smaller updates, we've always known where the project is, and nobody following the updates I think has ever had any serious reason to doubt that this game would be finished and the rewards delivered.

Unfortunately, that is not the outside perception. I have, many times, seen outsiders express cynicism about the likelihood of the game coming out, and I think that's where backers (if they want) could be a bit more active in responding to that. If I see someone on twitter or on some news article express bewilderment that the game isn't out or doubt it'll ever come out, I usually take the time to leave a quick, polite note saying something like 'Actually backers are being kept well up to date, part 2 looks close to finished, and we're expecting it in the spring.' Perhaps adding, if it seems relevant 'The extra delay is probably because of the additional retail and Playstation releases they announced a short while back.'

It's surprising how often I get a reply something along the lines of 'Oh, I didn't know that, thanks' or at LEAST something more like 'Well, that's interesting but I guess we'll have to wait and see'

which makes all the more ingenious of Ron Gilbert and Gary Winnick the decision to publish the progress of their Thimbleweed Park game on a blog outside of kickstarter and not limit the information to the backers. There's also the other benefit of soliciting information from people who didn't necessarily back the game on Kickstarter for input (I think this is where Ron made the decision to program the game with Squirrel).

The more transparency, the better.

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Yeah, let's say that the communication has really gone a long way. It's true that there have been quiet patches, but honestly in 3 years I'd be more surprised if there weren't. On the whole, while sometimes we've wanted more frequent, smaller updates, we've always known where the project is, and nobody following the updates I think has ever had any serious reason to doubt that this game would be finished and the rewards delivered.

Unfortunately, that is not the outside perception. I have, many times, seen outsiders express cynicism about the likelihood of the game coming out, and I think that's where backers (if they want) could be a bit more active in responding to that. If I see someone on twitter or on some news article express bewilderment that the game isn't out or doubt it'll ever come out, I usually take the time to leave a quick, polite note saying something like 'Actually backers are being kept well up to date, part 2 looks close to finished, and we're expecting it in the spring.' Perhaps adding, if it seems relevant 'The extra delay is probably because of the additional retail and Playstation releases they announced a short while back.'

It's surprising how often I get a reply something along the lines of 'Oh, I didn't know that, thanks' or at LEAST something more like 'Well, that's interesting but I guess we'll have to wait and see'

which makes all the more ingenious of Ron Gilbert and Gary Winnick the decision to publish the progress of their Thimbleweed Park game on a blog outside of kickstarter and not limit the information to the backers. There's also the other benefit of soliciting information from people who didn't necessarily back the game on Kickstarter for input (I think this is where Ron made the decision to program the game with Squirrel).

The more transparency, the better.

To be fair on DF, they learned that lesson first, by making everything for Massive Chalice public from the start.

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Yeah, let's say that the communication has really gone a long way. It's true that there have been quiet patches, but honestly in 3 years I'd be more surprised if there weren't. On the whole, while sometimes we've wanted more frequent, smaller updates, we've always known where the project is, and nobody following the updates I think has ever had any serious reason to doubt that this game would be finished and the rewards delivered.

Unfortunately, that is not the outside perception. I have, many times, seen outsiders express cynicism about the likelihood of the game coming out, and I think that's where backers (if they want) could be a bit more active in responding to that. If I see someone on twitter or on some news article express bewilderment that the game isn't out or doubt it'll ever come out, I usually take the time to leave a quick, polite note saying something like 'Actually backers are being kept well up to date, part 2 looks close to finished, and we're expecting it in the spring.' Perhaps adding, if it seems relevant 'The extra delay is probably because of the additional retail and Playstation releases they announced a short while back.'

It's surprising how often I get a reply something along the lines of 'Oh, I didn't know that, thanks' or at LEAST something more like 'Well, that's interesting but I guess we'll have to wait and see'

which makes all the more ingenious of Ron Gilbert and Gary Winnick the decision to publish the progress of their Thimbleweed Park game on a blog outside of kickstarter and not limit the information to the backers. There's also the other benefit of soliciting information from people who didn't necessarily back the game on Kickstarter for input (I think this is where Ron made the decision to program the game with Squirrel).

The more transparency, the better.

To be fair on DF, they learned that lesson first, by making everything for Massive Chalice public from the start.

Oh, I didn't know that! I'm glad Double Fine has learned from their mistakes!

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yhea i even liked the massive challice team streams that much, i bought the game later, even as i wasn't a backer, simply because i liked the progress and the artstyle and the mechanics and stuff. ^^

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Dang, it'll be tough to wait for the next episode for for potentially 5 more months. :(

What crazy math are you doing?

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Yeah! So so excited. Really sad about the Godus situation too. I'm extremely happy with Broken Age, and feel like all of the money that was put into it was managed appropriately. I have purchased 3 copies for family in the meantime on Steam, and they're all equally excited to see the rest of it. Thank you DF team for making this game so special.

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But I paid $500 for the premium tier of this campaign. I didn't even get any replies at all back from PMs to the singer or the producer. I didn't just give them $500 to complete the project; I gave them $500 for that special cover tier. I didn't even get an A Capella Back. It's incredibly frustrating.
But they did take responsibility by coughing up the dough. If I go into a store that says "candy for $1" and I give them $1 but I get no candy, would I not have a right to be pissed?

I find these two answers tend to cover the pretty large misunderstanding that some people who commit money to Kickstarter projects have. There seems to be a belief that when you are committing money to a Kickstarter, you are in some way "buying" a particular product, or are being "promised" a product, and therefore should the project not deliver they are owed some form of money back as a result. At face value this makes sense, a lot of the wording on Kickstarter and especially within projects themselves tend to skew more towards the "pay this and get this" end of the spectrum, which can sometimes be a bit misleading to those who don't understand how things work.

At the end of the day however, you are not buying anything, and you are guaranteed nothing. You're essentially gambling, you're placing a bet on the people running project, and that project reaching completion (and being everything that it was said it would be). Additionally, just like a bet, more you put in, the greater the reward you can expect to get back in return - IF you win. You have no more recourse from losing your money than had you bet on a horse and had it lose. You lose, you're straight out of luck.

EVERY Kickstarter project is a risk of loss, and that you might not get anything out at the end of the day. If you're going to donate to a project, then you need to understand that.

As for the Peter Molyneux debacle, my personal opinion is that the RockPaperShotgun interview was a bit too much and went too far at times. It felt far too much that the interviewer was letting personal feelings subjectively affect his line of questioning and it got incredibly hostile for no real reason. Has PM made mistakes in the past? Of course he has, I remember all those wild promises that were made for the many years he was active as the public face of Lion Head (although I don't remember much about the Bullfrog days), some laughable, some that got you thinking about what games maybe could be. Do I hold any malice towards the man for doing so? Hell no!

So most of the games he made never lived up to his or our expectations? So what! I still thoroughly enjoyed the majority of them. He and his studios have brought hours of enjoyment and in spite of his failings or tendency to rag on his previous games (although ask any artist whether they're ever really happy with anything they produce - most of us hate our own work), his passion and love for the industry always shines through and makes you happy that such a person is striving to make something truly memorable - no matter if that has lead to failure until now.

That said, I truly believe PM has to step back a bit, breathe, and maybe try and look at tackling a simpler type of game - perhaps something he's done, and succeeded at, before, but making it something truly special. Less "will bring social change" and more "plays great, looks great, is great fun". He should just try do another Dungeon Keeper... I would pay for that.

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But I paid $500 for the premium tier of this campaign. I didn't even get any replies at all back from PMs to the singer or the producer. I didn't just give them $500 to complete the project; I gave them $500 for that special cover tier. I didn't even get an A Capella Back. It's incredibly frustrating.
But they did take responsibility by coughing up the dough. If I go into a store that says "candy for $1" and I give them $1 but I get no candy, would I not have a right to be pissed?

I find these two answers tend to cover the pretty large misunderstanding that some people who commit money to Kickstarter projects have. There seems to be a belief that when you are committing money to a Kickstarter, you are in some way "buying" a particular product, or are being "promised" a product, and therefore should the project not deliver they are owed some form of money back as a result. At face value this makes sense, a lot of the wording on Kickstarter and especially within projects themselves tend to skew more towards the "pay this and get this" end of the spectrum, which can sometimes be a bit misleading to those who don't understand how things work.

At the end of the day however, you are not buying anything, and you are guaranteed nothing. You're essentially gambling, you're placing a bet on the people running project, and that project reaching completion (and being everything that it was said it would be). Additionally, just like a bet, more you put in, the greater the reward you can expect to get back in return - IF you win. You have no more recourse from losing your money than had you bet on a horse and had it lose. You lose, you're straight out of luck.

EVERY Kickstarter project is a risk of loss, and that you might not get anything out at the end of the day. If you're going to donate to a project, then you need to understand that.

This post is so idiotic I don't know where to begin. First of all, Kickstarter's TOU states that creators must fullfill their obligations. In gambling at, say, Las Vegas or Monte Carlo, the house always wins. Also, Most of the projects I backed ended up having their rewards fulfilled. Not so with gambling. Granted, kickstarter is no guarantee, but creators have obligations to fulfill their promises. Such an obligation would be silly for gambling houses.

Basically, what you're saying is if something looks like a duck, talks like a duck and acts like a duck, there's no way it's a duck.

Also, I know Kickstarter is risky. But you shouldn't be an apologist for swindlers.

EDIT: I realize I was a little hostile there. But I am aware of the pitfalls of Kickstarter. That being said, any ignorance on the nature of Kickstarter should never, ever be an excuse for creators to skirt their obligations, as some in this thread seem to suggest.

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Let us start with Gambling according to Wikipedia

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

I think Kickstarter fits that bill pretty well if I do say so myself, just because the odds are better than the Vegas strip doesn't mean it's anything other than gambling.

The TOU you refer to was only added after Kickstarter began getting a lot of negative press surrounding projects not succeeding and therefore not getting fulfilled, and I would argue that the only reason that negative press even existed is because of the relative naïveté of those who were choosing to back projects and their lack of understanding as to what they were getting into by doing so.

There is a *vast* difference between a project which is successfully backed and successfully completed which does not subsequently fulfill its obligations, and one that either never gets off the ground or falls apart mid-way - in which case it can be argued that obviously those obligations can never be fulfilled. Your analogy with regards to purchasing $1 of candy and then not getting the candy, thereby being upset, is flawed because on Kickstarter you are not making a purchase, you are - as I described - essentially making a bet that the individuals running said project will be able to follow it through to completion and that as a result you will get some form of reward. If they are unable to do so, you are straight out of luck and without recourse, regardless of what Kickstarter's TOU might state. This has very little to do with swindling and a lot more to do with the reality that some projects just don't reach completion due to the risk involved. If backers start demanding money back on failed projects due to lack of fulfillment, it's likely to have a pretty big chilling effect against high-risk endeavors for fear or potential litigation or damnation.

That said, I fully agree that creators should not skirt their obligations should their project be taken to completion (not funded, but completed) - at that point the deal needs to be closed and backers need to get what they were promised (unless part of the promise involved progressive updates such as documentaries, which obviously need to then be provided over time). However, until the project reaches completion, there IS NO OBLIGATION and Kickstarter's TOU is in no way legally binding upon any of the entities in question and more-so just a way for Kickstarter to shift the responsibility for lack of fulfillment onto the project owners (where it naturally should lie).

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Let us start with Gambling according to Wikipedia
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

I think Kickstarter fits that bill pretty well if I do say so myself, just because the odds are better than the Vegas strip doesn't mean it's anything other than gambling.

The TOU you refer to was only added after Kickstarter began getting a lot of negative press surrounding projects not succeeding and therefore not getting fulfilled, and I would argue that the only reason that negative press even existed is because of the relative naïveté of those who were choosing to back projects and their lack of understanding as to what they were getting into by doing so.

There is a *vast* difference between a project which is successfully backed and successfully completed which does not subsequently fulfill its obligations, and one that either never gets off the ground or falls apart mid-way - in which case it can be argued that obviously those obligations can never be fulfilled. Your analogy with regards to purchasing $1 of candy and then not getting the candy, thereby being upset, is flawed because on Kickstarter you are not making a purchase, you are - as I described - essentially making a bet that the individuals running said project will be able to follow it through to completion and that as a result you will get some form of reward. If they are unable to do so, you are straight out of luck and without recourse, regardless of what Kickstarter's TOU might state. This has very little to do with swindling and a lot more to do with the reality that some projects just don't reach completion due to the risk involved. If backers start demanding money back on failed projects due to lack of fulfillment, it's likely to have a pretty big chilling effect against high-risk endeavors for fear or potential litigation or damnation.

That said, I fully agree that creators should not skirt their obligations should their project be taken to completion (not funded, but completed) - at that point the deal needs to be closed and backers need to get what they were promised (unless part of the promise involved progressive updates such as documentaries, which obviously need to then be provided over time). However, until the project reaches completion, there IS NO OBLIGATION and Kickstarter's TOU is in no way legally binding upon any of the entities in question and more-so just a way for Kickstarter to shift the responsibility for lack of fulfillment onto the project owners (where it naturally should lie).

Okay, that makes more sense. And as I have stated before, I have had pretty good experiences with Kickstarter overall (including the Broken Age Kickstarter). Only very rarely have I not received my rewards. In one such case I didn't receive an exclusive T-shirt but the failure was not the fault of the creators (it was the less-than-competent fulfillment agency) so I didn't fault them (Then again, that's a special case since I know the creators personally and professionally).

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I hope one day you try to earnestly do what you love and that your reward for your struggles is to be called a lying wh*re.

What's your point?

What was it that he said when his Kickstarter campaign was slowing down? If memory serves, it went along the lines of 'for f*ck’s sake, let's just say anything'. He basically admitted to lying outright merely to get people to pledge for his project. Were I to do such a thing, I would expect nothing less than to be called out for my BS... which is exactly what happened to Molyneux.

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Dang, it'll be tough to wait for the next episode for for potentially 5 more months. :(

What crazy math are you doing?

The next episode is released in the summer. Summer starts June 21.

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Dang, it'll be tough to wait for the next episode for for potentially 5 more months. :(

What crazy math are you doing?

The next episode is released in the summer. Summer starts June 21.

Nope, the next episode us released with the game in Spring.

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Nope, the next episode us released with the game in Spring.

Maybe it's not clearly specified. Apparently the table in the first post shows the last episode delivered in Summer. If the game is released on time in Spring and the next episode comes some time after it, I guess it could be Spring or Summer. Unless this is clearly stated somewhere? (I don't think the video states this either way except that the next episode will be after the game's release.)

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Nope, the next episode us released with the game in Spring.

Maybe it's not clearly specified. Apparently the table in the first post shows the last episode delivered in Summer. If the game is released on time in Spring and the next episode comes some time after it, I guess it could be Spring or Summer. Unless this is clearly stated somewhere? (I don't think the video states this either way except that the next episode will be after the game's release.)

There are 2 more episodes left for the documentary I think. One that sort of coincides with the release, and then a post-launch wrapup a little later.

Smiles

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Nope, the next episode us released with the game in Spring.

Maybe it's not clearly specified. Apparently the table in the first post shows the last episode delivered in Summer. If the game is released on time in Spring and the next episode comes some time after it, I guess it could be Spring or Summer. Unless this is clearly stated somewhere? (I don't think the video states this either way except that the next episode will be after the game's release.)

There are 2 more episodes left for the documentary I think. One that sort of coincides with the release, and then a post-launch wrapup a little later.

Yeah, that seems to be the plan according to the text in the table in the OP and this quote below it:

That’s it for now! You can expect another documentary episode in the weeks prior to launch and more project updates as we hit major milestones.

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Wondering if we can get information about the possible release date from the free documentary release rate on youtube.

It'll be around the 24th of April when all existing episodes are on the youtubes. Late April for full release maybe? Hmmmm.

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