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enloudfibe

If Raz is inside someones brain and they fall asleep, what happens?

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I don't think it makes any difference if they are asleep or awake. A mind is just a mind, no matter what state it is in.

Also, remember that in the original Psychonauts, after you beat Waterloo World, Fred lays down and takes a nap, and you can still go into his mind then, and it's the same. Well, except that there are cows there now.

Maybe if they fall asleep there are cows. But otherwise it's the same.

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It would be cool to see a level in Psychonauts 2 take place inside a character's dream! If Raz can visit dreams, that is. Maybe he'd need to gain a new ability to do that?

I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how the scenario goes, but if you return to Sasha's mind after he is kidnapped, he says something along the lines of "I don't know where I am" or "I must be unconscious" to you. Can't remember how it's worded, but that's the gist of it.

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It would be cool to see a level in Psychonauts 2 take place inside a character's dream! If Raz can visit dreams, that is. Maybe he'd need to gain a new ability to do that?

I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how the scenario goes, but if you return to Sasha's mind after he is kidnapped, he says something along the lines of "I don't know where I am" or "I must be unconscious" to you. Can't remember how it's worded, but that's the gist of it.

Guys.

You can go into Fred's mind when he's awake AND when he's asleep, and it's the same thing either way.

You can go into Sasha's mind when he's conscious AND when he's unconscious, and it's the same either way.

Also, sleeping and unconscious are basically the same thing.

So Psychonauts has already demonstrated that whether the person is awake or dreaming, conscious or unconscious, it doesn't make any actual difference in the mental world. It is still ultimately the same mind, with all the same contents. The brain worlds that you enter basically ARE dream worlds.

Something that I wonder though...

The idea of being able to project interference into a particular mental world is interesting, though, such as when Oleander projects meat and bunnies into the minds of Lily and Raz (and presumably the other kids). Oleander wasn't aware that he was projecting that interference, though. He was just sleeping in front of a radio that could apparently transmit psychic waves. But what if you wanted to project something (other than your own mental self) into other mental worlds ON PURPOSE? Does this actually affect the person it happens to, or is it only noticed by visiting psychonauts? If it does affect the person you are purposely doing it to, then could it be used as a psychological weapon? Could it also have therapeutic uses?

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I want to see what happens if you're in someones head and they slowly die.

What if you're in someone else's head and YOU'RE slowly dying? And your body dies, but your consciousness is still active in the other mind and you have no where else to go? You're not so much a psychic stowaway as a psychic castaway!

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I want to see what happens if you're in someones head and they slowly die.

What if you're in someone else's head and YOU'RE slowly dying? And your body dies, but your consciousness is still active in the other mind and you have no where else to go? You're not so much a psychic stowaway as a psychic castaway!

Oh great... now we're going to get into a huge philosophical debate over Psychonauts... lol...

Okay, well if you're taking the more scientific/empirical view, then I think you would have to admit that when the brain dies, then so does the self. The self is just an emergent property of the brain, as has been proven in many ways, in many cases. Therefore, if your astral projection, your mental avatar, was in the mind of another person, and your brain died, then so would your astral projection. The only way that would NOT be the case is if you suspect that the brain on the receiving end would then become host to the other person's projected self. I highly doubt that's the case, though. That would be like if you were participating in this thread on DFAF, and then the DF office building containing the DF servers suddenly exploded, which resulted in your computer suddenly becoming the DF server. I don't think that's how it would work. I think your computer, like the brain receiving the astral projection, is just a receiver. It does not become the sender or acquire the properties of the sender when the sender suddenly ceases to exist.

But if you are Rene Descartes or just a person of religious persuasion, you might think something like the astral projection is also projecting a bit of the soul (if you believe in those sorts of things), and believe that when the body dies, there is still a soul that goes on. The ghost in the machine, right? If the machine dies, there is still the ghost "pilot", and something has to happen to the ghost pilot! And maybe if the ghost is straddling two machines, and one of the machines explodes or dies or falls in a vat of acid, etc, then the ghost will be stranded in the other (foreign) machine.

I take the empirical view, of course.

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People seem to zone out whenever a Psychonaut enters their mind so I don' think consciousness really makes a difference. Though the level of awareness or control that different characters have in regards to what's real or not seems to vary.

I am interested in seeing more dreamlike sequences like Black Velvetopia where the character doesn't seem to fully know what's real until they start to piece things together and overcome their past.

I want to see what happens if you're in someones head and they slowly die.

What if you're in someone else's head and YOU'RE slowly dying? And your body dies, but your consciousness is still active in the other mind and you have no where else to go? You're not so much a psychic stowaway as a psychic castaway!

Sounds like an A Song of Ice and Fire plotline.

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People seem to zone out whenever a Psychonaut enters their mind so I don' think consciousness really makes a difference. Though the level of awareness or control that different characters have in regards to what's real or not seems to vary.

I am interested in seeing more dreamlike sequences like Black Velvetopia where the character doesn't seem to fully know what's real until they start to piece things together and overcome their past.

Hey that's true. When you're in a mind like Boyd's or Edgar's, they don't seem to have the slightest ability to discern what is real and what is just a product of their own troubled mind. But when you look at people like Sasha and Milla, they are completely aware of what is real and not real, and where everything in their mind comes from, and what it means. They even seem to have some ability to SORT it. Sasha of course keeps everything packed into a tightly organized cube, but Milla's secret is perhaps intentionally thrust off into a dark side room, inside of a closed chest, like she has sent it away to the attic, as if she wants to keep the record of it, but she also wants to mostly forget about it.

I guess it's sort of like the difference between a dream and a daydream. One is an unconscious and uncontrolled mental image, whereas the other one is deliberate and controlled, but they are both still all in the head.

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I guess it's sort of like the difference between a dream and a daydream. One is an unconscious and uncontrolled mental image, whereas the other one is deliberate and controlled, but they are both still all in the head.

Which makes sense, considering that Sasha are Milla are trained to the point where they can use their minds as training grounds and Boyd can barely make sense of his own thoughts.

On the other side of the spectrum, it could be interesting to enter the mindscape of an enemy that is fully aware of you being there and has enough control of their mind to use it against you.

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I guess it's sort of like the difference between a dream and a daydream. One is an unconscious and uncontrolled mental image, whereas the other one is deliberate and controlled, but they are both still all in the head.

Which makes sense, considering that Sasha are Milla are trained to the point where they can use their minds as training grounds and Boyd can barely make sense of his own thoughts.

On the other side of the spectrum, it could be interesting to enter the mindscape of an enemy that is fully aware of you being there and has enough control of their mind to use it against you.

Hm. That sort of thing has been seen before in other games using a slightly different fiction. Such as when your character hacks into the Decker network in Saints Row, and they turn your avatar into a toilet, and Matt turns his own avatar into a giant killer dragon, etc. Similar form of idea in a slightly different fiction.

That's not to say it shouldn't be done, though! Just comparing.

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So Psychonauts has already demonstrated that whether the person is awake or dreaming, conscious or unconscious, it doesn't make any actual difference in the mental world. It is still ultimately the same mind, with all the same contents. The brain worlds that you enter basically ARE dream worlds.

That was why I suggested that maybe you'd need an all-new psychic ability in order to visit an active dream. It's not something that was explored in the first game (like I said, Sasha can communicate with you even when he isn't awake!) and I think that the idea of having to enter a specific dream sequence that a sleeping character is having at that moment could have potential. It could of course just be that it's impossible for a psychonaut to enter active dream sequences anyway, but on the other hand maybe those just take place in a part of the subconscious that Raz was unable to explore in the first game. But yeah, that's what I meant by "visiting dreams"; I was thinking more along the lines of being able to visit the very specific events that a character is dreaming of then and there, which differs to their overall mind and subconscious.

The idea of being able to project interference into a particular mental world is interesting, though, such as when Oleander projects meat and bunnies into the minds of Lily and Raz (and presumably the other kids). Oleander wasn't aware that he was projecting that interference, though. He was just sleeping in front of a radio that could apparently transmit psychic waves. But what if you wanted to project something (other than your own mental self) into other mental worlds ON PURPOSE? Does this actually affect the person it happens to, or is it only noticed by visiting psychonauts? If it does affect the person you are purposely doing it to, then could it be used as a psychological weapon? Could it also have therapeutic uses?

I imagine that the technology to purposely project thoughts into people's minds could, in theory, exist in the Psychonauts universe. Whether or not anyone's been able to invent it yet, or are trying to invent it, or someone abused its powers and the device had to be banned, etc. is another story! Personally, I'm in favour of the idea that it can affect the person whose mind it happens to (not saying I definitely think that's what canonically happens, just that I like this concept) but perhaps only gradually, so that the person in question doesn't suddenly notice anything different. That way, if someone's been zapped/struck/whatever by the device, it could take a while before anyone starts noticing anything different about them.

That said, I guess there's no reason it has to be a physical device that does this (I was thinking along those lines because the first game showed us that their radios can at least do this). Maybe, being able to project interference and manipulate someone else's mind is another psychic power. Probably an especially powerful one though, if that's the case, and perhaps an ability that very few psychonauts are capable of.

Either way, as for psychological weapon vs. therapeutic uses, I can just imagine a fight between Raz and a villain who each have this ability and are both trying to use it on a third, innocent character. Raz is using it for good and is trying to stop the villain from corrupting the innocent character's mind; both characters constantly trying to override each other's efforts and the innocent character likely being oblivious the whole time.

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Hm. That sort of thing has been seen before in other games using a slightly different fiction. Such as when your character hacks into the Decker network in Saints Row, and they turn your avatar into a toilet, and Matt turns his own avatar into a giant killer dragon, etc. Similar form of idea in a slightly different fiction.

That's not to say it shouldn't be done, though! Just comparing.

I feel like I should probably check out Saints Row now.

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Hm. That sort of thing has been seen before in other games using a slightly different fiction. Such as when your character hacks into the Decker network in Saints Row, and they turn your avatar into a toilet, and Matt turns his own avatar into a giant killer dragon, etc. Similar form of idea in a slightly different fiction.

That's not to say it shouldn't be done, though! Just comparing.

I feel like I should probably check out Saints Row now.

Skip the first Saints Row. It is very dated and the game hadn't quite discovered its true identity yet.

Saints Row II is an eeeexcellent game, but it's kinda PS2 era, so it is getting a little old at this point as well. It's basically GTA San Andreas but with a better gang/faction system and better humor.

Saints Row III is excellent. You won't know who some of the characters are or get a few of the inside jokes if you skipped SR2, but you won't have any problem if you start here. This game is 100% excellent and I actually prefer it tremendously over GTA. This is the one that has the area where the hackers turn you into a toilet. ^_^ That kinda humor is all over the place in the Saints Row games.

Saints Row IV is... well... some people like it. It's basically a copy/paste of SR3 except you have superhuman powers like you're in the matrix or something. But the game makes you SO powerful that there is no reason to use vehicles (you can just fly everywhere) and the missions are kinda boring and pointless. And they introduce a new grade system to the missions that make them annoyingly granular. I dunno. It's okay, I guess, but I didn't really like it, and most of my IRL friends didn't care for it, but it's got great reviews. Just be warned that it's... different. It's really fun to play with the powers at first, but once that superhuman novelty wears off, so does the fun, IMO. (But jesus christ do I love that dubstep gun!)

Saints Row V: ???? Hopefully awesome!

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The lights just turn off. Poof.

Also what happens when raz goes into raz brain. Razeption ? :P

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The lights just turn off. Poof.

Also what happens when raz goes into raz brain. Razeption ? :P

I think this question was answered by Being John Malkovich

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The lights just turn off. Poof.

Also what happens when raz goes into raz brain. Razeption ? :P

I think this question was answered by Being John Malkovich

Not only is that freaking hilarious and disturbing hahah "his facial expression OH GOD NO .. But i've never seen this movie! .Thanks :D totally gonna watch this now!.

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The lights just turn off. Poof.

Also what happens when raz goes into raz brain. Razeption ? :P

I think this question was answered by Being John Malkovich

Not only is that freaking hilarious and disturbing hahah "his facial expression OH GOD NO .. But i've never seen this movie! .Thanks :D totally gonna watch this now!.

Haha, it's a brilliant movie, but I'm sorry to have ruined one of the best scenes for you. xD

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Skip the first Saints Row. It is very dated and the game hadn't quite discovered its true identity yet.

Saints Row II is an eeeexcellent game, but it's kinda PS2 era, so it is getting a little old at this point as well. It's basically GTA San Andreas but with a better gang/faction system and better humor.

Saints Row III is excellent. You won't know who some of the characters are or get a few of the inside jokes if you skipped SR2, but you won't have any problem if you start here. This game is 100% excellent and I actually prefer it tremendously over GTA. This is the one that has the area where the hackers turn you into a toilet. ^_^ That kinda humor is all over the place in the Saints Row games.

Saints Row IV is... well... some people like it. It's basically a copy/paste of SR3 except you have superhuman powers like you're in the matrix or something. But the game makes you SO powerful that there is no reason to use vehicles (you can just fly everywhere) and the missions are kinda boring and pointless. And they introduce a new grade system to the missions that make them annoyingly granular. I dunno. It's okay, I guess, but I didn't really like it, and most of my IRL friends didn't care for it, but it's got great reviews. Just be warned that it's... different. It's really fun to play with the powers at first, but once that superhuman novelty wears off, so does the fun, IMO. (But jesus christ do I love that dubstep gun!)

Saints Row V: ???? Hopefully awesome!

Story doesn't really pick up until the second game then? Noted, thanks.

I do vaguely remember the intro from the third game, so I'm expecting something fairly over the top.

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Skip the first Saints Row. It is very dated and the game hadn't quite discovered its true identity yet.

Saints Row II is an eeeexcellent game, but it's kinda PS2 era, so it is getting a little old at this point as well. It's basically GTA San Andreas but with a better gang/faction system and better humor.

Saints Row III is excellent. You won't know who some of the characters are or get a few of the inside jokes if you skipped SR2, but you won't have any problem if you start here. This game is 100% excellent and I actually prefer it tremendously over GTA. This is the one that has the area where the hackers turn you into a toilet. ^_^ That kinda humor is all over the place in the Saints Row games.

Saints Row IV is... well... some people like it. It's basically a copy/paste of SR3 except you have superhuman powers like you're in the matrix or something. But the game makes you SO powerful that there is no reason to use vehicles (you can just fly everywhere) and the missions are kinda boring and pointless. And they introduce a new grade system to the missions that make them annoyingly granular. I dunno. It's okay, I guess, but I didn't really like it, and most of my IRL friends didn't care for it, but it's got great reviews. Just be warned that it's... different. It's really fun to play with the powers at first, but once that superhuman novelty wears off, so does the fun, IMO. (But jesus christ do I love that dubstep gun!)

Saints Row V: ???? Hopefully awesome!

Story doesn't really pick up until the second game then? Noted, thanks.

I do vaguely remember the intro from the third game, so I'm expecting something fairly over the top.

They just get crazier and crazier as they go. There is some concern that its constant need to be even crazier than last time is bringing the series very close to jumping the shark, if it hasn't jumped it already. lol

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Saints Row IV is the best superhero game ever made.

It's okay. I like the superheroness of it, but I didn't like:

--It kinda ruins the Saints Rowness of it

--You are so powerful that you're often TOO powerful and it makes challenges less interesting

--Did not like how they changed the challenges to be graded instead of just rewarding completion. I hate grading systems in games pretty much always.

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On 1/22/2016 at 9:54 PM, Anemone said:

Oh great... now we're going to get into a huge philosophical debate over Psychonauts... lol...

Okay, well if you're taking the more scientific/empirical view, then I think you would have to admit that when the brain dies, then so does the self. The self is just an emergent property of the brain, as has been proven in many ways, in many cases. Therefore, if your astral projection, your mental avatar, was in the mind of another person, and your brain died, then so would your astral projection. The only way that would NOT be the case is if you suspect that the brain on the receiving end would then become host to the other person's projected self. I highly doubt that's the case, though. That would be like if you were participating in this thread on DFAF, and then the DF office building containing the DF servers suddenly exploded, which resulted in your computer suddenly becoming the DF server. I don't think that's how it would work. I think your computer, like the brain receiving the astral projection, is just a receiver. It does not become the sender or acquire the properties of the sender when the sender suddenly ceases to exist.

But if you are Rene Descartes or just a person of religious persuasion, you might think something like the astral projection is also projecting a bit of the soul (if you believe in those sorts of things), and believe that when the body dies, there is still a soul that goes on. The ghost in the machine, right? If the machine dies, there is still the ghost "pilot", and something has to happen to the ghost pilot! And maybe if the ghost is straddling two machines, and one of the machines explodes or dies or falls in a vat of acid, etc, then the ghost will be stranded in the other (foreign) machine.

I take the empirical view, of course.

I love this thought-provoking discussion!

However, I think one could stretch the empirical view a little to allow for lingering in someone else's mind after the death of one's own body if

a) We presume that the act of psychic transference is an act of copying a part of one's mind into another brain, sort of like what has been suggested of a Star Trek transporter: http://www.iflscience.com/physics/are-star-trek-transporters-actually-suicide-booth/ > 

or 

b) Being in someone's mind leaves a unavoidable physical footprint... the whole observer-changes-the-observed phenomena often discussed in quantum mechanics. Considering the fact that Raz is always changing things inside of other people's minds as he passes through them, its also possible to argue that he is leaving a piece of himself behind through the changes he is incurring. If so, if his brain died, a least a shadow of him would persist in the minds he has visited.  

 

 

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So, uh, on a similar note, does the fact that you can access the minds of Boyd, Edgar, Gloria, and Fred after the tower explodes confirm that they survived it?

Edited by Iron Joe

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