• Announcements

    • Spaff

      These Forums are closing!   10/04/2019

      After more than a decade of serving this community well, these forums have finally run their course and it's time to close them down. That doesn't mean we want to close the doors on our community, quite the opposite!
      Our discord server grows ever busier by the day, and we encourage all Double Fine fans to meet us over there www.discord.gg/doublefine In a short time these forums will become a read only archive and will remain that way until they become needed again.
      You never know, it might happen.  There is... a prophecy. Thank you all for being part of these forums, and remember that the fun is definitely not over - so please join us on Discord! Love ya, Spaff, Tim, Info Cow, and all of Double Fine.
Levering_2pp

Daily Documentary Delays

Recommended Posts

 I'm rather shocked by some of the opinions in this thread. I'm thrilled that Asif got selected for AF. The Gods must be Hungry was a fantastic pitch and the final product (from the little bits I've seen) looks outstanding! So to say that some would rather he had not been up for selection for the sake of the AF episodes being available on time sounds ludicrous to me. Sure, I was a little disappointed when I started to sense that there were some disruptions to the schedule, but that's life; stuff happens, things don't go according to plan, people adapt. 

I'd much rather wait for ALL of the episodes to be made available after the fortnight is over. Perhaps that's not a popular opinion, but I watched 2012 and 2014 after the fact, and still find them to be just as fun and educational. And that's a testimony to the quality of 2PP's work. 

So these are my suggestions: 2PP members should NOT be banned from submitting pitches. Instead, increase forum/social media interaction for the duration of AF. Consider producing the episodes for upload a week or two after AF is over so everyone involved can have some breathing room! (Then keep making dvd sets so I can buy them...) :hexiraz:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, person said:

After the awesome DFA and first 2 AF doccos, I just hand over my money and hope for the best.

I'm sad that that Psychonauts 2 seems to effectively have no coverage. I wasn't hoping for another DFA-like experience, but 2 videos in a year and a half is not what I thought I was signing up for.

It's hard to promote these campaigns to friends now - "Sign up - there might be some completely awesome 2PP coverage like before! Or not. I'm not sure..."

It's been three main updates since the end of the campaign, each with several videos, so don't say it's just been 2 videos. They said the updates would be every four months and they've stuck to that. Note that most of this time Psy2 has been in the pre-production stage with a skeleton crew, and every other DF project released since then has also had 2PP making-of videos, including Rhombus of Ruin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've backed several double fine projects now, and followed the two previous AF events closely. I agree that the documentary needs to be given priority, I go back and watch old videos from them, and DFA from time to time and very much enjoy them. Not having live streams was not an issue for me, the effort to set them up and run them is probably far greater than the reward from watching them.

However some sort of daily update is why I pay to be 'involved' in AF, if that wasn't the meaning of the Humble Bundle then my bad for the interpretation I guess, though it was based on the previous events.

I'm not expecting the updates to be finished quality, they don't need to be all subtitled and colour corrected, with perfect sound. I just like to feel like I am following the progress of the teams and seeing how their games are looking. I'd be perfectly ok if these videos where not up on a public platform like YouTube where people could criticise their rushed appearance. Save that for the final documentaries that's fine. But a small chat with each lead each day, along with some shots of their respective teams working on the games so I can see what's moved on from the previous day is all I need. Maybe that's a bigger ask than I realise...

Either way, next time there certainly needs to be a clear decision on what we will see during the event, as well as what will come later. I'm more than happy to pay for access to the  AF process, but I'd like to know what I'm actually going to get for that investment upfront. 

I hope that's not coming across as too negative. I love the work DF and 2PP do for us to keep us in the loop more than most dev groups. I'm just trying the get some perspective on if I'll stump up cash to back again next time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also find it ludicrous to exclude 2pp just for the sake of the documentary schedule. I'm even going so far as to say that I welcome them pitching games during the next AF, should there be a next AF. Could be very interesting to see a repeat performance from Asif, similar to what happened with Derek. But that's a bridge we bomb when we get there.

Furthermore I also feel that the series should trump a livestream in every way. To be honest I was a bit relieved when I discovered there were no livestreams this year. In the past I felt I had to watch them or I'd miss something, and on some days that was a bit of a hassle. On the other hand, because of the series delay, I had a feeling of disconnection from the event that was quite less enjoyable than AFs past. In the end, though, it is what it is. I still get a great documentary series, some prototypes to play (even from non-doublefine folks!), maybe a soundtrack? (please please please!)

All in all, some bad, a heck of a lot good, can't complain about the amount of bang for my buck. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, countstex said:

I'm not expecting the updates to be finished quality, they don't need to be all subtitled and colour corrected, with perfect sound. I just like to feel like I am following the progress of the teams and seeing how their games are looking. I'd be perfectly ok if these videos where not up on a public platform like YouTube where people could criticise their rushed appearance. Save that for the final documentaries that's fine. But a small chat with each lead each day, along with some shots of their respective teams working on the games so I can see what's moved on from the previous day is all I need. Maybe that's a bigger ask than I realise...

I'm curious whether something like this is possible. I know there is a lot of audiowork before you could even give "raw" edits, but not sure if it's something that would be doable on a daily schedule or if it's just not worth it. 

I DO think that it would be a really awesome perk for paying customers to see relatively uncut and raw footage daily, compared to the final docs once they are ready. This way we would actually get some small insight into how the documentaries get made in addition to how the games get made, maybe with a small blog post for each episode. Personally I would love to see 2PP's creative process in some small way. Obviously you can't watch the Watchmen, but showing unfinished versus finished work would be an awesome glimpse. Also, I do think it would be nice to have a value proposition for people who actually pay for the experience. It helps people justify paying more when they get something that is only open to those who are actively supporting. The voting does this, but private videos that show 2PPs process would make a lot of people excited I think. 

Maybe it's just way too much work and not everyone is as willing to have their unfinished work exposed the way Double Fine is, so maybe this is just a pipe dream. But it would be awesome for such short docs for two weeks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there are some misconceptions about our work.  We're not putting out any rough or uncut footage.  I've explained the workflow before.  During AF we shoot between 6-9 hours of footage every day.  Technically more like 12-18 since it's two cameras.  It takes an extremely experienced editor who's intimately familiar with the footage upwards of 10-14 hours to cut an episode together out of that footage.  Our replacement editor, who wasn't intimately familiar with the footage, couldn't handle that workflow.  The "rough" episodes that go up on Youtube have an incredible amount of effort put into them to make them watchable.  No matter what anyone thinks, we're not putting up "raw" footage.

When episodes are finalized they receive a more thorough audio mix, color correct, noise reduction, and in some cases adjustments to the edit.  These processes also take time, and the final video takes longer to render out for distribution.

The rest of the videos will get done, and they will be good.  As upset as anyone is by how the delays affected their enjoyment of the project, I promise you no one is more upset than I am.  I also don't appreciate criticism of our efforts.  If you're a professional in the video production industry with over ten years of experience on high pressure projects I would love to hear from you about how we can improve our workflow without burning ourselves out or spending a ton of money.

We're not going to tell Asif he can't pitch and realize a lifelong dream because it's going to slow production on the doc series.  We tried to find a way to see him do that and maintain quality of the series, but it didn't totally work out and the greatest drawback is things are late.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have no clue how much I wish I had the capabilities to fly out to you and just give you and everyone a huge hug @Levering_2pp.  Keep kicking ass and doing what you're doing.  I wait with anticipation... and patience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Levering_2pp said:

I think there are some misconceptions about our work.  We're not putting out any rough or uncut footage.  I've explained the workflow before.  During AF we shoot between 6-9 hours of footage every day.  Technically more like 12-18 since it's two cameras.  It takes an extremely experienced editor who's intimately familiar with the footage upwards of 10-14 hours to cut an episode together out of that footage.  Our replacement editor, who wasn't intimately familiar with the footage, couldn't handle that workflow.  The "rough" episodes that go up on Youtube have an incredible amount of effort put into them to make them watchable.  No matter what anyone thinks, we're not putting up "raw" footage.

When episodes are finalized they receive a more thorough audio mix, color correct, noise reduction, and in some cases adjustments to the edit.  These processes also take time, and the final video takes longer to render out for distribution.

The rest of the videos will get done, and they will be good.  As upset as anyone is by how the delays affected their enjoyment of the project, I promise you no one is more upset than I am.  I also don't appreciate criticism of our efforts.  If you're a professional in the video production industry with over ten years of experience on high pressure projects I would love to hear from you about how we can improve our workflow without burning ourselves out or spending a ton of money.

We're not going to tell Asif he can't pitch and realize a lifelong dream because it's going to slow production on the doc series.  We tried to find a way to see him do that and maintain quality of the series, but it didn't totally work out and the greatest drawback is things are late.

I read through this thread and couldn't find any references to your 2017 doc episodes being "raw" or "rough" footage, so maybe you're referring to my post? I'm really sorry if I gave that impression and bummed you out, but if so I think you misread my post because I've been pointing out that I love the 2017 episodes. There was a comment before where someone was wondering if to save time you could post the actual raw footage at the end of the day, and then give us the edited documentaries later on when you have time. In my reply, I was wondering aloud whether even dumping raw footage would take a bunch of time/ work because there's so much work other than editing that needs to be done. I also went on about a pipe dream that it would be cool to see the full 8 or 12 hours of footage and then the 20 minute episode to catch a glimpse of your creative process... by seeing the unfinished and then the finished project, we could get a sense of how you approach shooting footage and then how you approach editing. Obviously this would be extremely unlikely to happen for lots of reasons, but I didn't mean to suggest at all that you were putting raw or rough footage out right now. Sorry again and thanks for the wonderful work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nor I. I wasn't suggesting what had come out was anything less than quality work. I was just wondering if there was not some way to have someone, even with something as basic as recording some stuff on a phone, to get some daily stuff out. (An intern, work placement, some dude off the street ;) ) Of course that takes time too, and I guess a lot of stuff has to be cleared by DF to ensure nothing secret is seen. We're still getting the doc at some point so it's all good. Was more speculating for other options in future AFs, should they occur. You guys are still the best, you are our window into all of this. Without you we'd have nothing :) We love you, man!

Edited by countstex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and as for Asif, I voted from him myself so I was more than happy he got this chance :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, countstex said:

Oh and as for Asif, I voted from him myself so I was more than happy he got this chance :)

Same here. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, countstex said:

Oh and as for Asif, I voted from him myself so I was more than happy he got this chance :)

Me too. I think the majority of people on this thread have said that they think that's one of the most interesting angles in the doc, as well. So we're very happy for him and you and it will make the documentary stronger for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Acheron said:

Me too. I think the majority of people on this thread have said that they think that's one of the most interesting angles in the doc, as well. So we're very happy for him and you and it will make the documentary stronger for it.

Definitely. The candidness he brings to everything, makes him by far the most interesting aspect of the entire series. I'd love to see more and more of this angle. He's a great documentary subject!


Smiles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now