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Lehm2000

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I've been curious about something since first hearing about this project. I haven't really seen it discussed much. Generally when someone puts up the money for a commercial project they get a share of the profits from it. I haven't seen any mention of what Double Fine intends to do with the money they earn from the sales. So at the moment I have to assume they're going to keep all of it. True the backers get some rewards out of it. But what if the game becomes very successful? It would seem reasonable to me that the people who put up the money for the project should profit from its success as well. This might encourage people to contribute more if they were going to get more profit at the end. Not to mention that you'd have 50000 people with a vested interested in the game doing well (ie they'd all become advertisers for the game once it came out). Just something to think about.

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Kickstarter doesn't allow shares of the profits to be rewards for backing for several reasons, one of which being that doing so would get the SEC and all sorts of new regulations involved.

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I hate these selfish posts.

Kickstarter isn't an investment website.

You give money because you want a classic point and click adventure game by the ex-LucasArts guys. Rewards are a "thank you" gift for your backing.

Want to invest in DoubleFine? Buy some actual shares.

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I hate these selfish posts.

Kickstarter isn't an investment website.

You give money because you want a classic point and click adventure game by the ex-LucasArts guys. Rewards are a "thank you" gift for your backing.

Want to invest in DoubleFine? Buy some actual shares.

This!!!

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The profits will go to a company that loves its fans, and who will hopefully one day make psychonauts 2, other adventure games, and so much more.

Investing in DFA isnt about this though, it isnt an "investment" either. What we get from this is (hopefully) the perfect 2D nostalgic adventure game. This isn't an "investment" and even if it was... it would be an investment of Love. Not Logic.

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The profits will go to a company that loves its fans, and who will hopefully one day make psychonauts 2, other adventure games, and so much more.

Investing in DFA isnt about this though, it isnt an "investment" either. What we get from this is (hopefully) the perfect 2D nostalgic adventure game. This isn't an "investment" and even if it was... it would be an investment of Love. Not Logic.

+1

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I've been curious about something since first hearing about this project. I haven't really seen it discussed much. Generally when someone puts up the money for a commercial project they get a share of the profits from it. I haven't seen any mention of what Double Fine intends to do with the money they earn from the sales. So at the moment I have to assume they're going to keep all of it. True the backers get some rewards out of it. But what if the game becomes very successful? It would seem reasonable to me that the people who put up the money for the project should profit from its success as well. This might encourage people to contribute more if they were going to get more profit at the end. Not to mention that you'd have 50000 people with a vested interested in the game doing well (ie they'd all become advertisers for the game once it came out). Just something to think about.

It's a donation, not an investment. You aren't entitled to dividends. An investment model is also an interesting proposal and maybe someone will try it someday, but that's not what this is, no one ever said it was, and no it's not reasonable to ask in this case.

Double Fine will likely invest the profits into further game development for projects that publishers are hesitant on. And that's a great thing.

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Either way it seems unlikely that this is a 'high-return-on-investment potential' project.

On the contrary, this could easily earn them greater after-the-fact profits than both Psychonauts and Brutal Legend, even if it sells a fraction of the number of copies. You have to look at it from the developer side of things.

Here's how the game industry works: A publisher pays a developer to make a game, up front, and this money goes mostly toward paying the staff during the development period. Afterwards, the publisher keeps ALL of the money until these development costs (and sometimes marketing costs on top of it) have been paid in full. If and when the game sells enough to make this back (which for a big game like Brutal Legend might be a million copies), the developer gets a small share of the profits for each copy sold (to retail) after that, usually about 10%, sometimes even less, and that's of the wholesale cost, not retail so it's out of like $45, not $60. I don't know the specifics of Double Fine's deal with EA, but if it sold 1.5 million, Double Fine might have seen like $2 million. For Psychonauts they probably never saw a penny after the fact until they got publishing rights and put it on Steam.

The sad reality is that most developers never see much in the way of royalties. This is why they're perpetually dependent on publishers, not just early on when they're getting started, but for their entire lives.

This project, on the other hand, makes money for every copy sold (besides the copies given to backers, of course). Steam takes a cut, but if it's a $15 game, they make about $10. If it sells 300,000 copies like, say, Machinarium, which is a pretty modest goal, then they'll have made $3 million, which is more than my guess for Brutal Legend, and enough to develop another game.

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Kickstarter doesn't allow shares of the profits to be rewards for backing for several reasons, one of which being that doing so would get the SEC and all sorts of new regulations involved.

Yeah I kind of figured something like that. Perhaps if the game does become a mega success DF can take some of that profit and do something really nice for the backers.

Oh and to the person that brought it up. I see nothing selfish about asking what DF intends to do with the money they earn from the money we gave them. Last I checked DF is a commercial company making a commercial product, not a charity. Its a prudent question.

Hmmm there's an idea. What if DF took the part of the profits that would normally go to the investors, and gave that to charity instead. Tim did say he was passionate about charity... or something.

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Either way it seems unlikely that this is a 'high-return-on-investment potential' project.
Here's how the game industry works: A publisher pays a developer to make a game, up front, and this money goes mostly toward paying the staff during the development period. Afterwards, the publisher keeps ALL of the money until these development costs (and sometimes marketing costs on top of it) have been paid in full. If and when the game sells enough to make this back (which for a big game like Brutal Legend might be a million copies), the developer gets a small share of the profits for each copy sold (to retail) after that, usually about 10%, sometimes even less, and that's of the wholesale cost, not retail so it's out of like $45, not $60. I don't know the specifics of Double Fine's deal with EA, but if it sold 1.5 million, Double Fine might have seen like $2 million. For Psychonauts they probably never saw a penny after the fact until they got publishing rights and put it on Steam.

The sad reality is that most developers never see much in the way of royalties. This is why they're perpetually dependent on publishers, not just early on when they're getting started, but for their entire lives.

Suddenly a wild Kickstarter appears.

*tan tan tannn ta na nah nannnm katshin*

Kickstarter uses crowdfunding...

It's supper effective!

Publisher fainted.

AFAIK all of the kickstarter money will go to development (basically salaries). Then what DF is able to sell afterwards (on Steam or whatever) will be company profit.

Hopefully that profit can be used to make another old school adventure game :]

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Kickstarter doesn't allow shares of the profits to be rewards for backing for several reasons, one of which being that doing so would get the SEC and all sorts of new regulations involved.

Yeah I kind of figured something like that. Perhaps if the game does become a mega success DF can take some of that profit and do something really nice for the backers.

Oh and to the person that brought it up. I see nothing selfish about asking what DF intends to do with the money they earn from the money we gave them. Last I checked DF is a commercial company making a commercial product, not a charity. Its a prudent question.

Hmmm there's an idea. What if DF took the part of the profits that would normally go to the investors, and gave that to charity instead. Tim did say he was passionate about charity... or something.

Best thing would be for adventure gaming that he took the profit and puts it in a new adventure game after double fine adventure.

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It's neither really an investment OR a donation. It's a pledge of money in return for rewards. You might be paying a bit above the odds for some of those rewards, but think of it more like you're giving Double Fine a tip. For being awesome. And to help them be more awesome.

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Best thing would be for adventure gaming that he took the profit and puts it in a new adventure game after double fine adventure.

This would be great, but I don't think it'll happen. Guys like Ron Gilbert had to live with the stigma of being an "adventure guy" for a long time and it hurt his career. Lots of other adventure game designers dealt with the same think. Al Lowe has never put out a game since because of it.

Plus they don't really strike me as the type of company that wants to settle into a genre or a routine. They like trying new things.

But that doesn't mean we won't get another adventure or two out of them down the line if this does well. Just don't expect one after another.

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It's neither really an investment OR a donation. It's a pledge of money in return for rewards. You might be paying a bit above the odds for some of those rewards, but think of it more like you're giving Double Fine a tip. For being awesome. And to help them be more awesome.

You are almost correct. It's a pledge of money, but the rewards are secondary. Often, Kickstarter rewards don't offer anything physical for your pledge.

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It's neither really an investment OR a donation. It's a pledge of money in return for rewards. You might be paying a bit above the odds for some of those rewards, but think of it more like you're giving Double Fine a tip. For being awesome. And to help them be more awesome.

You are almost correct. It's a pledge of money, but the rewards are secondary. Often, Kickstarter rewards don't offer anything physical for your pledge.

Weeeell, that's maybe true of some Kickstarters, but I'd say that in this one the rewards are pretty important. People want to see the game made, sure, and some people would have pledged money just for the opportunity to buy it again further down the line but the fact that they're getting at least the game and doc. for the money is a pretty major reason for the success of the Kickstarter. As for myself, for example, I'm more than happy to pledge $110 but there's no way I'd do so if I at wasn't at least getting the game and some other stuff. Maybe $10. At a guess, I'd say well over half of the money that this project has made has been a direct result of the rewards on offer, which doesn't make them secondary in my book.

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Without knowing the exact specific terminology of every word I'm using, I guess you could think of this as an 'investment' in a way. We pay a little money up front, then later on, we get our money back plus more - but not in money form, in game plus documentary form.

Well, by that definition any purchase of anything is an investment. Sometimes purchases ARE an investment, if you intend to sell them on for a higher price later on, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Maybe you're saying you think the game + stuff is worth more than the money, but that's just a value judgement. For example, I think that most of these pledge levels are actually a bargain until you get into the $250+ figure, but some people don't even think $30 is worth it.

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I look at it as an investment in adventure games. If the Kickstarter game ends up being a big financial success four DoubleFine, they should use those profits to make another great adventure game. Maybe a sequel to the first. That would be the right thing for them to do, and I'm sure that is what they will do. It would be ridiculous for them to turn those profits into a Wii ping pong game. A revival of the game genre that we love is the return on our investment that we should be hoping for.

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I look at it as an investment in adventure games. If the Kickstarter game ends up being a big financial success four DoubleFine, they should use those profits to make another great adventure game. Maybe a sequel to the first. That would be the right thing for them to do, and I'm sure that is what they will do. It would be ridiculous for them to turn those profits into a Wii ping pong game. A revival of the game genre that we love is the return on our investment that we should be hoping for.

I hope it'll at least be some encouragement to get us more adventure games from those with established track records in the genre. You look at guys like Al Lowe who have been exiled from the gaming industry just because they're known for adventure games, and this shows that actually, people like him are bankable brands. I'd love to see more of the greats return to their roots, maybe even with the help of publishers.

Al Lowe, Scott Murphy and Aaron Conners/Chris Jones would be high on my list of people I'd like to see return to adventure games. Roberta Williams would be nice too, but she has seemingly zero interest.

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If they profit from this, then Double Fine will potentially have some room to breath a little from all the economical stress... Less stress = more awesome games = happy fans

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Don't expect adventure games to suddenly become popular after this.

Mm, I think they'll continue to have the problems that Tim and Ron talk about in their recent video. But this may convince more people that the market is there. The problem is, adventure games used to have the highest production values of any games, and so suddenly it was this weird situation where publishers were looking at these other games which were selling more and wondering why they should fund these big high production value adventures.

Telltale's solution was to go episodic and digital, which seemed to work for them at least for a while. It seems Double Fine have discovered another way of getting this sort of game made, in a world where they're no longer the most expensive games around. And I'm hoping, my hunch is that they won't have to compromise much on quality. If that shines through, maybe sake publishers might be convinced at giving adventures another fair shake, at a low investment level. Especially once it can be proved the niche-but-loyal audience is still there.

But yeah, that's sort of a best case scenario. On the other hand:

The classic Tim Schafer adventure games of old came out before the internet really exploded huge, or before its conventions had started to mature, and the internet likes funny. If enough buzz is generated about this funny game, more people might be lured in who might not otherwise have played. Like how Portal was the unexpected star of The Orange Box (though being bundled with Episode 2 was obviously a factor there) and led to a much bigger sequel. So I have to wonder. What if Tim's game has a character in it which catches on like GLaDOS did? Or a premise which is so hard to resist that people come to look who usually wouldn't be interested.

That's the exciting thing here. We don't know what they're going to come up with, and who knows? It could really capture the internet's imagination. If not, we'll still have our awesome game.

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Don't expect adventure games to suddenly become popular after this.

Maybe not and maybe yes, life is full of surprises. I expect nothing, I just wait and see what happens.

Adventures are still being made so there must be a group of fans to cash in on or they wouldn't make adventures.

----

to answer OP

For the profit part, it is not our bussiness. I see it that we paid for an unfinished product upfront on promises instead of buying it afterwards.

This gave some advantages and one of them is that you can get the game for just a mere 15 dollars.

I don't expect DF to come out with a sheet of balances and what they did with the money, it is not our bussiness, it's theirs.

I expect a great game and I know DF will perform because history is proof of this and I gladly took the risk to pay upfront.

It doesn't hurt to throw away 15 dollars on a flop but it does hurt to throw away 50 dollars on a game that I didn't like very much. I scour bargain bins for games around that price, sometimes it is nothing and sometimes I find surprises. 15 dollars is a great price for me to experiment.

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It never crossed my mind that backers should get a return on their investment, but now that this has been mentioned it's pretty clear to me that backers should also get a seat on the board of directors. If they offer that at the $60 level I'll up my pledge.

More seriously, I do think this project could help spur more interest in the genre. Kind of like The Humble Bundle made all these other indie bundles come into being, and indie games now have a way to reach a bigger crowd. If Double Fine's adventure brings a decent profit, others will try to imitate it. Hopefully it will also mean that Double Fine will try to imitate it.

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All this talk about what's going to happen with the kickstarter funds is amusing me. There's so much talk about there being 3.4 million dollars for the development of the game it's kinda scary. As much as I'd like to think that they should put all the money from this event I also understand that there is a chance that there will be few sales beyond us 86k people who put our money into the game already. For this whole event to be a profitable double fine should take their profits out of the $3.4 million. Personally I'd suggest that they take a about $500K to $1m and make any later sales should be 100% profitable. Why not they were planning a $300,000 game? Should we really expect them to make a game that's 1000% more expensive just because they made the sales before they make the game? I`m glad that Tim promised to spend more on the game then they planed but I hope that he remembers to take his profit from these sales.

I bought a game and a documentary and I paid what I think these items are worth (well not really but what I can afford before I know exactly what I'm going to get)

This wasn't an investment, pledge, or donation. It was a sale and Tim had one hell of a sales pitch

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All this talk about what's going to happen with the kickstarter funds is amusing me. There's so much talk about there being 3.4 million dollars for the development of the game it's kinda scary. As much as I'd like to think that they should put all the money from this event I also understand that there is a chance that there will be few sales beyond us 86k people who put our money into the game already. For this whole event to be a profitable double fine should take their profits out of the $3.4 million. Personally I'd suggest that they take a about $500K to $1m and make any later sales should be 100% profitable. Why not they were planning a $300,000 game? Should we really expect them to make a game that's 1000% more expensive just because they made the sales before they make the game? I`m glad that Tim promised to spend more on the game then they planed but I hope that he remembers to take his profit from these sales.

I bought a game and a documentary and I paid what I think these items are worth (well not really but what I can afford before I know exactly what I'm going to get)

This wasn't an investment, pledge, or donation. It was a sale and Tim had one hell of a sales pitch

Why should they get instant profits everything they sell after completion of the game will be profits. Now its just like it normally works for a developing company they get payed by investors. But they will get a far bigger portion of the profits compared to when made with a publisher.

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All this talk about what's going to happen with the kickstarter funds is amusing me. There's so much talk about there being 3.4 million dollars for the development of the game it's kinda scary. As much as I'd like to think that they should put all the money from this event I also understand that there is a chance that there will be few sales beyond us 86k people who put our money into the game already. For this whole event to be a profitable double fine should take their profits out of the $3.4 million. Personally I'd suggest that they take a about $500K to $1m and make any later sales should be 100% profitable. Why not they were planning a $300,000 game? Should we really expect them to make a game that's 1000% more expensive just because they made the sales before they make the game? I`m glad that Tim promised to spend more on the game then they planed but I hope that he remembers to take his profit from these sales.

I bought a game and a documentary and I paid what I think these items are worth (well not really but what I can afford before I know exactly what I'm going to get)

This wasn't an investment, pledge, or donation. It was a sale and Tim had one hell of a sales pitch

I would think as backers we'd want as much as possible to go into the game, and to a lesser extent the doc and the rewards. Once you factor in the doc (which is now going to be at least twice as long as originally intended) and rewards, postage for rewards, paying someone to design a large art book and write the text for that, printing costs, fees to kickstarter and amazon, it's easy to imagine that almost a million of that 3.45 million might already have gone on non-game stuff. So let's say the budget of the game is actually something more like 2.5, 2.6. It could be even less, or slightly more, but I think that's a reasonable guess.

2.5 million dollars is not a huge budget to make an adventure game with. It's a respectable one, but I for one want to see every cent of that remaining budget going into making the game as great as possible. Sure, they could have made something on that 300k budget (or in fact more like 270k after fees, and perhaps 250k after rewards) but it certainly wouldn't be the vague idea of a game you had in your head. Now they have a real shot at making something special, so let's give them the best chance of doing that - which means all current money going into the project.

After all, more money means they can spend more time on the game, which means it's more likely to be great, which gives them a better shot at making more profits in the long-term.

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