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MichaelM

To leak or not to leak? To be upset or to turn a blind eye? To shake your beer or to shake a bear?

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Yes, please respect Double Fine's wishes. If they ever wish to share the private videos, then that's when you should do it. Until then, the videos aren't to be leaked.

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Then let me ask the question of what's "private for good reason" when we are talking about 87000 people having access? I mean, seriously... if anything happens that shall remain "private" we will not get to see it anyway. And if there is a big scandal in one Video it would be plastered all over the internet even more than a simple "Thank you" video which we got today. :)

I´ll say it again. In my eyes these leaks should not be hunted down. Tell people to please not to do it and thats it. The best thing to "protect the backers money" is to offer the people that want to pay for watching the video series a late way in. Be it 99cents per episode on iTunes (booo their Video DRM is boooooo) or just a Download via the DF Shop. Who wants to watch illegal will do so no matter what.

They money could be used as a emergency fund for the game if something goes wrong and if all turns out fine and dandy it could add to what the backers get (like a physical copy of the Soundtrack for example).

In my eyes this is the "modern way" to handle how the world works today. I´ed love to hear other opinions on this or suggestions on how to solve the "problem" in a better way.

"They also wanted to create DRM protected PC game for 400.000$"

That's not what they wanted, that's what they thought was realistic. If you asked Tim what he really wanted, this figure would be much higher right from the beginning.

May be. But I still doubt DRM free and Linux were on their minds. iOS maybe... android little less maybe.

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Hey guys,

this is not becoming the educated discussion I was hoping for. Perhaps i wrote to much (in general but also with my broken English).

I´ll address two points several postings seem have brought up.

1. "It´s what DF/2PP want!"

I addressed this in my wall of text. They also wanted to create DRM protected PC game for 400.000$.

Wrong wrong wrongitty wrong. They never explicitly stated 'we'd like it if there was DRM', they just said that with the 400k their plan was to do a PC release on Steam, and it would be sophistry to suggest they switched from their 'pro-DRM' stance. They just got into a position where they saw there was a demand and were able to supply it. I agree discussion is cool, but it's still up to them to choose what to do.

2. "All these backers paid and their money needs to be protected."

Answer/Question Batch #1

Yes, but do you really claim to never have downloaded anything illegal? No MP3? No Movie? No Game? I am sorry but if you claim this i´ll loose my faith in your honesty. If you missed this kickstarter but are a big fan of the old adventure games, would you look for a way in? Rather watch the Show illegally than not at all? I know what my answer would be...

They can look for a way in all they want, but that doesn't make them ENTITLED to a way in. The videos are for backers, this has been very clear from the beginning. If I missed the kickstarter, you know, I'm such a big fan of adventure games that I'd probably cave and try to get the videos anyway. I'm weak like that. But I wouldn't blame the legitimate backers and DF for trying to stop me, and I'd rightfully feel guilty about doing it (until I get the chance to pay for it)

Answer/Question Batch #2

This is exactly the argument every big company would bring to the table. It´s the reasoning why Ubisoft thinks it´s right to use punishing DRM. It´s the reasoning Sony uses to block a ton of YouTube Videos. It´s the reasoning Universal and such use to justify region coding on DVDs/BRDs... do you like that these company's do this stuff? Have you noticed that everyone who wants to get this stuff illegal (or just imported) still finds a way to do so? Did you notice that games/movies/cds that use no DRM still can sell big (World of Goo, the Witcher... heck even iTunes Music is basicly DRM free right now) because if people want to pay and are given a fair option to do so will do it?

This isn't about DRM, this isn't about copyright (I should know, copyright is my job.) This is about doing what Double Fine have asked, out of respect. Respect to Double Fine's wishes, respect to the backers for whom exclusivity is important, and respect for the deal that was originally promised, which was that access to the documentary and forum content is for backers only - it's right there in the reward tiers.

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There are lines to be drawn here. This is something DF is doing for us. Like I said earlier, DF isn't "the man" or another giant game publisher greedy for money and shouldn't be treated as such. Very much the opposite. We should only give them the equal amount of respect that they have given us thus far. Because they deserve it. Anyone who leaks this stuff is a douche.

I realize the discussion isn't about that, however, but rather about what to do about leaked videos. I think having a thread in the hidden forum to report them and having them silently taken down is good enough. There's plenty of advertisement about the adventure game out there already that we don't need dishonourably leaked material to draw more interest. There needs to be lines drawn SOMEWHERE. And in this case I think that's a perfectly acceptable resolution.

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Then let me ask the question of what's "private for good reason" when we are talking about 87000 people having access? I mean, seriously... if anything happens that shall remain "private" we will not get to see it anyway. And if there is a big scandal in one Video it would be plastered all over the internet even more than a simple "Thank you" video which we got today. :)

I´ll say it again. In my eyes these leaks should not be hunted down. Tell people to please not to do it and thats it. The best thing to "protect the backers money" is to offer the people that want to pay for watching the video series a late way in. Be it 99cents per episode on iTunes (booo their Video DRM is boooooo) or just a Download via the DF Shop. Who wants to watch illegal will do so no matter what.

They money could be used as a emergency fund for the game if something goes wrong and if all turns out fine and dandy it could add to what the backers get (like a physical copy of the Soundtrack for example).

In my eyes this is the "modern way" to handle how the world works today. I´ed love to hear other opinions on this or suggestions on how to solve the "problem" in a better way.

"They also wanted to create DRM protected PC game for 400.000$"

That's not what they wanted, that's what they thought was realistic. If you asked Tim what he really wanted, this figure would be much higher right from the beginning.

May be. But I still doubt DRM free and Linux were on their minds. iOS maybe... android little less maybe.

Well i thought 2pp would sell the documentary once it is done and the Game is on sale

I dont think they would be happy if all the documentary Videos are on Youtube then

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"private for good reason" means fulfilling the promise of exclusiveness they made. Of course I'll enjoy the documentary (and my other rewards) either way, but put yourself in double fines position: You promise something to a group of people and then some tries to override you by posting things elsewhere. The next time they offer "exclusive" content some may just say "It'll leak anyway, so I won't pay".

Also as Nemroth posted, what if they want to sell the documentary afterwards?

Now I'm realistic enough to know that you can't stop leaking content.

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I already made a statement on the UPDATE thread, but I felt I'd say here in a fashion that was slightly different.

I understand leaking, hacking, stealing, borrowing, etc. I also know that it's never easy and that it can also be time consuming and in general pointless.

The finished game is going to be DRM. Anyone who didn't even bother with the $15 will be able to play it. This is a surefire fact. The documentary was a secondary concept for kickstarting. 2PP came to Tim and said "If make exclusive backer only documentary, it'd be an awesome reward for people who supported an adventure game". At least that's how I understand things.

The argument that because Doublefine requested people don't leak we shouldn't leak is a weak one. The concept that leaking the video goes against the concepts of WHY leaks exist does though. Music, Movies and even video games get leaked and ripped off because the Parent owners make themselves look like douches in their protection of their property. Although in the terms of MOST quality hacker groups, you'd see in their NFO that these rips of movies, music and video games should be considered a free rental.. that if you LIKED what you just played you should still delete the rip and go buy the real thing.

This is where it gets tricky with DoubleFine as there's the argument now that if you missed the Kickstarter you should be able to still somehow buy rights to the videos and such. Although striking a deal with iTunes or setting up a locked video on Vimeo which can only be viewed on Kickstarter only viewable by Kickstarter backers probably already took time and energy, even if not physical money m(but someone had to do it and they didn't do it for FREE)... to suddenly start setting that up for other options will cut into production time on the videos, and the game and eat at the budget.

No, the buck has to stop SOMEWHERE and it needs to stop at the 87,000+ backers in terms of these videos. Once the year is up, then sure, all these videos can go to the public as a marketing tool. Articles and non-blocked updates should be sufficient enough till then. Real News Sources and Reputable Blogs may get some material, but this game was pimped hardcore enough.

If you didn't have the $15 or missed the Kickstarter campaign, then you were never near the internet AT all and don't even play video games anymore in anyway... not even old ones via SCUMM. There's NO denying this fact. So, that's the point of not having the leaks. It's not because it's not fair, or because Doublefine asks you not to... but the people who watch them? They don't care... they were never going to back to begin with. They'll play the DRM game and forget about it. So why don't leak Because hwy let people who don't even care the chance to care even less?

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I´ll say it again. In my eyes

Yes, that's why we all have written quite a few pages now and managed to accomplish nothing. You believe one thing we believe another and i get the feeling that nothing will change any of those two. Maybe it's time to call it a day and leave this discussion behind, or at least i will do so, and i think it's for the better.

On the side: Both people that said something about Hitler and Nazis are also new, just like you and me and to be hones, i'm feeling a little ashamed that we make such a mess of the place as total n00bs.

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Wrong wrong wrongitty wrong. They never explicitly stated 'we'd like it if there was DRM', they just said that with the 400k their plan was to do a PC release on Steam, and it would be sophistry to suggest they switched from their 'pro-DRM' stance. They just got into a position where they saw there was a demand and were able to supply it. I agree discussion is cool, but it's still up to them to choose what to do.

When i was writing about DRM i was talking about what backers moved. And clearly they moved this in the direction of DRM free and Linux very fast. So i am sure we could move this in a "lets not block everybody and their mother because we legally can" direction as well if enough people speak up and say "A leaked video here and there issent the end of the world. It might even help the games hype and in the end sell more copys and creat more great Adventure games."

And all together doing a DRM free game is cheaper than doing one with DRM so i don´t see the point were they did not choose a DRM solution when first putting the KS up. Thats not evil, thats likely just something they always did (how many DRM Free DF games are there? I don´t know, serious question.).

It´s easy to just say "respect this" and be don with it. I think it´s just something we can talk about to find the smartest way of handling it while it´s still fresh. Because again, stuff will leak and you will not be able to stop if no matter how much you talk about copyright laws and respect for backers or DF.

And as a German lover of American TV Shows i can tell you that i am very happy about people that upload the previews you Americans can see for free on AMCs website, or the full shows that i maybe could watch a year later IF they get over the pond and with terrible dubbing. (or two years later on DVD with proper original audio) - This has nothing, nothing at all to do with disrespect for the people working and paying. This has to do with copyright law that has not yet adjusted to the world wide web and customer globalisation. Trust me, i would pay to download these shows leagly and for a fair fee. (i think the americans have netflix wich aperently dos this fairly well - well, we don´t... a handful of US shows are on iTunes but get online many houres later than the illegal versions, thats it) Instead I am forced to act illegal to get to the magic... and trust me i got a Ton of DVDs, BluRays, Comic Books and Videogames that in the end i bough just nice an legal. So trust me i don´t feel guilty about illegally downloading these shows, what i do is sit here shaking my head about why they don´t want to take my cold hard cash. :)

The opposite example would be comic books. I buy everything on comicxology these days. "Same day as print". Good to great scan quality, fair prices for the most part. I get them much faster than on any illegal site. - Thats how modern publishing works. Awesome! - I don´t feel like a better person or more respect full... it´s just there, on my iPad, on my Computer, so i pick it up, why wouldend I?

In the old days i needed to drive hours (!) to the next comic shop and till he gets the American books they are already out a week in the US. (Marvel subscriptions even take 4-6 weeks to get delivered straight to my postbox)

They can look for a way in all they want, but that doesn't make them ENTITLED to a way in. The videos are for backers, this has been very clear from the beginning. If I missed the kickstarter, you know, I'm such a big fan of adventure games that I'd probably cave and try to get the videos anyway. I'm weak like that. But I wouldn't blame the legitimate backers and DF for trying to stop me, and I'd rightfully feel guilty about doing it (until I get the chance to pay for it)

I am not blaming anyone and i don´t want anyone to feel guilty. I am just saying this is a very modern and new way of creating a game, releasing a game and creating a documentary... are there modern ways about looking at something as outdated as most (all?) copyright laws as well? (i am sure you will disagree if you work in copyright ;) )

God why are all my postings becoming a wall of text... >_> I should restrain myself. :)

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A bit OT but the "leaked" video on youtube is unlisted now :). Hopefully it was the user who uploaded the video who took that action.

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The argument that because Doublefine requested people don't leak we shouldn't leak is a weak one. The concept that leaking the video goes against the concepts of WHY leaks exist does though. Music, Movies and even video games get leaked and ripped off because the Parent owners make themselves look like douches in their protection of their property.

That actually is exactly my point. How to handle this without ending up looking like douches. - And it quiet strange if you just say "this has to stop and it has to stop now because this time i am on the side of people who payed for the creation." because thats exactly what these companies will tell you about every action they take. :)

For most people "Viral" is the reason they ended up backing... why start "fighting" the viral web world now?

On the side: Both people that said something about Hitler and Nazis are also new, just like you and me and to be hones, i'm feeling a little ashamed that we make such a mess of the place as total n00bs.

I feel a very strong dislike being compared to people that pull terrible nazi comparison onliners.

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I'm surprised they used Vimeo and didn't just use a prerecorded video on Ustream, since Ustream hides the actual source URL of the streaming video, making it impossible for video-snatching plug-ins to identify the video, so it can't be easily swiped by anyone with Firefox and then reuploaded to YouTube.

Of course, there are still ways of getting around Ustream's protection for the slightly more tech savvy, but I would have guessed the videos would be released in a more protected way like that, especially considering they were just using Ustream the other day.

But seriously. Sharing the videos already? D*** move.

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I am not blaming anyone and i don´t want anyone to feel guilty. I am just saying this is a very modern and new way of creating a game, releasing a game and creating a documentary... are there modern ways about looking at something as outdated as most (all?) copyright laws as well? (i am sure you will disagree if you work in copyright ;) )

No, the fact that I work in copyright only helps me to see where the law is working and where it isn't. My opinion is that copyright is long overdue an overhaul, and most of that overhaul needs to be in a pro-consumer direction. But I do think that a content creator should have some say in how their content is made available. There should be consumer protection to ensure that copyright isn't being used as a stick to beat more money out of legitimate customers, but I don't think it's right to suggest that rights holders should no longer get a say in how stuff gets put around. I could go on for pages on that, but that's it in a nutshell.

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(Wipes sticky pancake fingers)

An interesting subject that made me aware of my sneaky immorality. I've downloaded stuff, sure. With the excuse that thouse semi-evil big corporations has enough. But now that the tables have turned and i feel that i have ownership, my first reaction was like "Hey! Stop that, thats mine!".

However after reading pros and cons here, i think i've reached the conclusion that it doesent take from my experience that non backers see the videos. So why was my first reaction like that? My best guess is greed. The same greed that pushes the publishers to only bet on the big mainstream games to earn, the same greed that is found in the pre-crises bank industry, the same greed that fuels most modern families as they go and buy their 3 car, the same greed that told me to mine just another 500 gold for that next awesome mount.

It is up to double fine to set the policy on the subject, agreed. I won't post anything outside the forums either. But i enjoyed the descussion. Wonderfull times.

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Not that anyone is really listening to anyone else here, but this may all be a moot point: The people who care most about these videos have already paid to see them. That includes Games Journalists. The leaked video on YouTube has actually hardly any views at all, and I imagine most of the views it does have are from backers hunting for it to see if it's true.

So really this might be a storm in a teapot.

Until we hear from Double Fine, this is just a discussion about morals: And morally it is wrong to share the property of someone, when they have explicitly asked you to keep it private.

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It doesn't look good when you willingly approve leaks on Double Fine's own forum.

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Not that anyone is really listening to anyone else here, but this may all be a moot point: The people who care most about these videos have already paid to see them. That includes Games Journalists. The leaked video on YouTube has actually hardly any views at all, and I imagine most of the views it does have are from backers hunting for it to see if it's true.

So really this might be a storm in a teapot.

Until we hear from Double Fine, this is just a discussion about morals: And morally it is wrong to share the property of someone, when they have explicitly asked you to keep it private.

That's sort of the conclusion I came to as well. Originally I was upset just knowing that the game industry is full of people just waiting to clone or leech off of other popular IP, and I didn't want silly leaks to lead to a Zynga Adventure knock-off. But then I thought... you know... if Zynga was really interested in doing that, they probably paid $15 and would get to watch it anyway, leak or no leak. And you know there are games journalists and industry insiders among the backers because, 1) Who do you think pledged $10,000 or more? 2) We saw them in the social stream during the DF countdown party.

But still, if a known journalist shares the video on a game news site, that negatively affects that journalists' reputation with DF and other people in the industry who love DF and, you know, honesty and integrity and stuff. Some people care about that. It's the anonymous sharing that sucks.

At the end of the day, it's just a crappy thing to do out of principle.

1) Tim explicitly and nicely asked that nobody share the videos.

2) This video wasn't even part of the documentary the backers purchased. This was a private thank you. An intimate video love letter to the fans that Tim sealed with a kiss and marked for our eyes only. Going around and showing it to people is just kind of a d*** thing to do. Maybe it won't have any serious consequences either way, but how lame.

But maybe when Tim asked us to not share the videos, he was mostly talking to the journalists and whatnot. He probably expects regular people will leak the videos, because, hello, people on the internet, but maybe what he was actually saying was, "Hey, don't go posting our videos all over your news sites, you people who could do something like that."

*edit*

Also, anything that IS part of the documentary and gets yoinked and uploaded to YouTube could probably get nailed with a cease and desist and infractions on the account if 2PP and/or DF report it as copyrite infringement.

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I think everyone expected the very first video to somehow get "leaked". However, the problem is, the supporters PAID for exclusive behind the scenes of the development cycle. The videos will be made public by the time the documentary Blu-ray/DVD gets released, we get exclusive rights to see it first. Free flowing information might sound great in theory, but there has to be some secrecy.

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How about just respect the man who gave us Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, and Brutal Legend.

Find leaked video, report it, end of story.

This shouldn't even be a discussion.

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Just throwing my doublecents in...

I've been in the betas and DevNet L3+ on Egosoft's X-universe for quite some time and had to sign an NDA to get there in the first place. I'm pretty sure leaked information was kept to a minimum during the development. To my knowledge no screenshots or videos were leaked without Egosoft's permission. I could be wrong though.

If it was out of respect, or the legal NDA, I can't say. But it is possible to control.

In any case, I agree with Monkey Mania. Just report any leaked material and get on with your life. If they haven't already, Double Fine should make it easy to report, possibly in private, to keep disclosed information to a minimum.

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Obviously it´s a bit hard to say "lets just give the videos to everyone for free" since backers actually paid for the contend and will feel emotional about their money.

You answered your own question. I paid for the privilege to watch those videos, others did not. What's next, just give them the t-shirts and posters as well?

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How about just respect the man who gave us Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, and Brutal Legend.

Find leaked video, report it, end of story.

This shouldn't even be a discussion.

This x Infinity!

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Obviously it´s a bit hard to say "lets just give the videos to everyone for free" since backers actually paid for the contend and will feel emotional about their money.

You answered your own question. I paid for the privilege to watch those videos, others did not. What's next, just give them the t-shirts and posters as well?

I don´t think you get what i was going at. I don´t know if i should write all of it again.... no one is talking about giving away anything for free, were did you get that line?!

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Until we hear from Double Fine, this is just a discussion about morals: And morally it is wrong to share the property of someone, when they have explicitly asked you to keep it private.

To an extent it would be wrong to leak stuff if we had (explicitly) agreed not to - I can't actually remember, but I assume we have done so as part of backing the project. I say to an extent because a promise is only morally binding if it is itself morally viable. Coerced promises, for instance, are not generally thought of as being morally binding. Nor, I would think, are agreements to do some wrong thing, at least in the absence of good countervailing reasons. So all things being equal you couldn't be morally criticised for reneging on an agreement to blackmail someone, say.

Some may doubt that there are compelling reasons to keep these videos secret. But that is a different question. It's not obvious that arbitrary promises don't count. So if you promise to me that you will count to five tomorrow, but apart from that nothing rests on the promise being kept, there might still be some mild sense in which you are morally blameworthy for failing to count to five. But beyond this, even if there are people who don't agree with the general motivation of Tim's request, I presume they wouldn't go so far as to say his request was arbitrary. In what we might call psychological terms at least, his request was quite understandable. So I think it's fair to say it does have some pull, at least. This could perhaps be outweighed by good reasons for leaking the videos, but I'm not sure if anyone has presented any as yet.

Furthermore, I take it that the 2pp documentary will be put on sale upon completion. So arguments about leaking should probably also refer to the general piracy debate. It is not one with which I am well acquainted, however.

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To an extent it would be wrong to leak stuff if we had (explicitly) agreed not to - I can't actually remember, but I assume we have done so as part of backing the project. I say to an extent because a promise is only morally binding if it is itself morally viable. Coerced promises, for instance, are not generally thought of as being morally binding. Nor, I would think, are agreements to do some wrong thing, at least in the absence of good countervailing reasons. So all things being equal you couldn't be morally criticised for reneging on an agreement to blackmail someone, say.

Some may doubt that there are compelling reasons to keep these videos secret. But that is a different question. It's not obvious that arbitrary promises don't count. So if you promise to me that you will count to five tomorrow, but apart from that nothing rests on the promise being kept, there might still be some mild sense in which you are morally blameworthy for failing to count to five. But beyond this, even if there are people who don't agree with the general motivation of Tim's request, I presume they wouldn't go so far as to say his request was arbitrary. In what we might call psychological terms at least, his request was quite understandable. So I think it's fair to say it does have some pull, at least. This could perhaps be outweighed by good reasons for leaking the videos, but I'm not sure if anyone has presented any as yet.

8F26

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If a promise is not morally binding then we have lost all honour as a species and I don't want to live on this planet anymore. That shouldn't exist. Just because it happens doesn't make it ok.

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I wonder if, when the very same person who leaked the video, leaks the DRM free game via a torrent site, whether people will still have the same views!?

But joking aside, I would have to agree that as a paid backer, we should just do the right thing, and quietly report any infractions, and just move on. Making a massive deal out of this, only draws further attention to the issue.

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If a promise is not morally binding then we have lost all honour as a species and I don't want to live on this planet anymore. That shouldn't exist. Just because it happens doesn't make it ok.
I could go into why a promise doesn't have to be morally binding, and why that isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's not what this threads about though. Suffice to say, you're being a little overdramatic.

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This could perhaps be outweighed by good reasons for leaking the videos, but I'm not sure if anyone has presented any as yet.

In terms of the digital goods, a good reason is you do not own the content. It is not yours to disseminate. The rewards didn't include a right to ownership of the ip, just access to it. And that access doesn't extend beyond those who donated.

I don't think all of the offers were exclusive (I believe the poster was indicated as such, and the tee, but I don't recall the same being said about all of the perks) to the campaign and leaking the game soundtrack for instance would actually be taking money away from the company you love, if they market it in the future. So yeah, DF would actually be losing out.

As far as the videos, I think if 2pp has any plans on releasing a dvd for market, you'd be taking money out of their pockets by leaking it.

These things do have a negative impact on the two companies involved, and pretending they don't is incorrect.

There isn't a middle man here, you're not screwing over sony, you'd be screwing over a small company.

EDIT: additionally, I do think it would be neat if they DID provide some video content that was not exclusive to the kickstarter campaign for publicity reasons, but it's not for you to offer publicity by leaking their stuff. ( I think I'm responding to a post on another thread here, but since they both cover the same thing more or less, it's just going to go here.)

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If a promise is not morally binding then we have lost all honour as a species and I don't want to live on this planet anymore. That shouldn't exist. Just because it happens doesn't make it ok.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your reaction. No-one said promises can't be binding as such. The point is merely that some might not be, or alternatively that they aren't 'real' promises.

This could perhaps be outweighed by good reasons for leaking the videos, but I'm not sure if anyone has presented any as yet.

In terms of the digital goods, a good reason is you do not own the content. It is not yours to disseminate. The rewards didn't include a right to ownership of the ip, just access to it.

I'm not sure I understand your reaction either. The things you say are fair, but I was talking about hypothetical reasons for leaking.

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