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MichaelM

To leak or not to leak? To be upset or to turn a blind eye? To shake your beer or to shake a bear?

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Good whatever time it is were you are right now,

sit down and have a pancake with me.

Erdbeer-Pfannkuchen.jpg

Yum, that was nice. Now on to business. (i am german, bare with my fun grammar and hardcory typos!)

The inevitable leak of the first backers only Video already happened. So i figure this is something we need to talk about in one place rather than again and again in in every update topic that gets opened. I´ll just copy some stuff i wrote over there and put it in here for discussion.

Modern times.

Kickstarter is a modern way to finance. Therefore the way people act around your project should be modern.

What dos this mean? Well, for example people got very vocal about their platforms and about the game being DRM free. - Remember the first days of this Kickstarter? It was a PC game planed with Steam DRM. Thats how a somewhat modern developer would think right? An easy way to get you game out to the one gaming platform everyone owns and a way with cheap and "easy" (?) DRM.

Well, they were wrong and learned to listen quick when people shouted for Linux, OSX, iOS and Android. The obvious reaction was a spike in new pledges, yay.

On the front of no DRM we had other Pioneers like a ton of high selling indy games (World of Goo for example) or even recent big titles like "The Whitcher" that did very very good even though everyone could just install and play their game.

On the other hand you got customers that are afraid of DRM... what if steam is offline, what if something like Ubisoft games happens (known to work better with a crack than with the legal DRM Version)... or just thinking about how they became the paying gamers they are today because someone copied them a floppy of Monkey Island 20 years ago.

It´s an obvious choice to go DRM free and an obvious Spike in pledges!

And now it´s time for the actual Project to begin. As Tim said it in last nights Video... "Please tell us if you see our Videos somewhere else so we can take care of it..."

Now the question is... is this the modern way to approach this or is it a very old way just like in the beginning of the Kickstarter when the game was PC DRM only?

I say it is a very old way of looking at things. First of all, you can´t stop it. What you put public for 87000 people will get leaked if it´s leak worthy. But in the end it´s free advertising issent it?

Look at Sony for example. A company that just smells old all over the place. They got whole sections of their company just looking to ban as many Music Videos on youtube as they can find. Even sue them. Just because... it´s "theirs"... well in my mind Music Videos are something that get me to buy music, so effectively they are banning free advertising because they don´t get today. (even their Bands are complaining about this. A famous german fun electro rap group called Deichkind even released a song about "Illegal Fans".)

So how would the game benefit from the Show being leaked for the next 12 Month? Look at UFC for example (let´s not debate weather you like Ultimate fighting or not, thats not the point) - Something that took place behind closed PPV doors in the USA for many years. At one point they finaly got TV coverage getting the Show "The Ultimate Fighter" up on FX. The show actually had very little to do with the actual sport (at least in Season one) but getting to know the people behind it caused a giant explosion in PPV sales. So there is a BIG benefit in having this documentary out there.

And next. Minecraft. - Sometime around the Official 1.0 "full release" of Minecraft there was a "Snapshot" leaked by accident. - A Snapshot is a preview version they uploaded for inhouse testing... Notch and his gang reacted quick and kept the files online. Saying, we would rather have you downloading of our server than searching them somewhere on shady websites catching a virus in the worst case.

Since than every of this Snapshot has been released publicly so people that are enthusiastic enough to get everything ASAP can. - To me thats a very modern way of approaching a leak... just think about how an old smelly company would have reacted... EA would have pulled files, fired employees and sued websites.

Obviously it´s a bit hard to say "lets just give the videos to everyone for free" since backers actually paid for the contend and will feel emotional about their money. But i say, let´s just turn a blind eye to the leaks. Getting upset every week will just not feel nice and in the end make the company look far less modern than what this Kickstarter implies. (since you can´t stop it anyway, why bother looking like a dusch?)

Besides, if you had missed the month of Kickstarter... if had no spare money that special month... wouldend you find your way "in"? Aswell?

Maybe it would be nice to offer a Video only pack on the WebStore or something like that. So people who are late can still pay a bit if they want to pay if they want to. The money could be used to have a backup fund if something goes wrong with the game makeing or to include stuff like physical copies of the Soundtrack for backers?

I hope i did not forget anything, pritty massive wall of text here... i hope you understood everything. Please let others hear your opinions. :)

Michael

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Maybe so but still the private videos on youtube should just be reported and removed from youtube.

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I'm kind of in the middle on this.

I did feel a little sad when I found the video on youtube.. but I expected it too... I mean I LOOKED for it, after I watched the vimeo video on kickstarter.

On the one end, you don't find complete series on youtube, and I feel if double fine claims copyright and has it removed, that's fine.

On the other hand people who want to download a TV series will know where to look.

So maybe, out of respect for the backers, and double fine, double fine should just file a copyright claim if the video leaks onto youtube.

If images from the game end up on sites, I think double fine should have the right to ask the sites to take it down.

It will probably find other ways out, and perhaps thats fine, but it doesn't have to be in everybody's face.

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I don't think we need to overcomplicate this. If DF and 2PP wish to try to keep this stuff private, as a reward for backers, then we should stick to that.

And if someone respects DF enough to pledge $15 or more, but not enough to respect their wishes that you don't leak their stuff, then I guess I'm just a little confused about that.

I certainly won't be sharing anything, and that's about respect, not about some lofty idea about what it means to protect content in this modern age.

In the end, it boils down to a simple fact: it's not ours to share.

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But why not ?

It is free publicity, it will get people interested in the project and eventually they will get more money out of leaks then not.

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But why not ?

It is free publicity, it will get people interested in the project and eventually they will get more money out of leaks then not.

Why not: Double Fine said they don't want people to do this. They may have good reasons. Their reasons may be bad, in which case perhaps they can be persuaded. But either way, it's their call to make.

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Agreed... If you're a backer of the project, than back the project, and don't run off with it.

However discussion is good. If you think the decision to try and remove the leaks is not good? Then it's good to talk about it.

But until other decisions are made (which I think wont be, because of promises to backers) shouldn't one respect that decision and back double fine in protecting its IP ?

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But why not ?

It is free publicity, it will get people interested in the project and eventually they will get more money out of leaks then not.

Why not: Double Fine said they don't want people to do this. They may have good reasons. Their reasons may be bad, in which case perhaps they can be persuaded. But either way, it's their call to make.

I don't know, to respect the thousands of people who paid with their money, perhaps?

Double Fine and Tim Schafer wish us to report any leaks to them. If they can't trust us, what makes you think they'll ever do this again? They'll just keep everything to themselves, like everyone else, until the game is released.

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But why not ?

It is free publicity, it will get people interested in the project and eventually they will get more money out of leaks then not.

Why not: Double Fine said they don't want people to do this. They may have good reasons. Their reasons may be bad, in which case perhaps they can be persuaded. But either way, it's their call to make.

I don't know, to respect the thousands of people who paid with their money, perhaps?

Double Fine and Tim Schafer wish us to report any leaks to them. If they can't trust us, what makes you think they'll ever do this again? They'll just keep everything to themselves, like everyone else, until the game is released.

Well, since the first backer only video has ALREADY been leaked, despite specific instructions not to do so, what have we done so far to earn that trust and respect? You don't buy respect, you act in a way that encourages it.

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Messaged the guy on youtube who leaked it. Here's what he said:

He: "...But yeah, obviously uploading this was a mostly-unpopular decision and I'm rather regretting it at this point."

me: "Whether its right or wrong: If you truly regret it, you'll take it down :)"

He: "Okay, yeah, I feel bad about it but don't "truly regret" it yet. I'll wait on a few hundred more viewers or a response from Tim for that."

Perhaps al he wanted was a little attention :)

If you look at the likes vs dislikes, he's a rather unpopular guy right now ;-)

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But why not ?

It is free publicity, it will get people interested in the project and eventually they will get more money out of leaks then not.

Why not: Double Fine said they don't want people to do this. They may have good reasons. Their reasons may be bad, in which case perhaps they can be persuaded. But either way, it's their call to make.

I don't know, to respect the thousands of people who paid with their money, perhaps?

Double Fine and Tim Schafer wish us to report any leaks to them. If they can't trust us, what makes you think they'll ever do this again? They'll just keep everything to themselves, like everyone else, until the game is released.

Well, since the first backer only video has ALREADY been leaked, despite specific instructions not to do so, what have we done so far to earn that trust and respect? You don't buy respect, you act in a way that encourages it.

Report the leaks as instructed by Tim himself.

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I'm still not sure if it's such a good idea to start a topic while another which touches on the same issue is still on the same page, but let's roll with it. Well here is the other just so it doesn't drift into oblivion.

http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/6009/P15/

Well, since the first backer only video has ALREADY been leaked, despite specific instructions not to do so, what have we done so far to earn that trust and respect? You don't buy respect, you act in a way that encourages it.

I think it's a little extreme but semi-valid. I'm sure they will still involve the backers in the process as they promised and give us updates, but it would be indeed sad if something would change for worse due to such incidents. Other people seem to dislike this action too, the Video in question received 5 likes and 56 dislikes so far, and the top rated comments are along the lines of "please don't". What i think we should do though: If it happens again we shouldn't mention it in public as it may create public awareness for the leak, but maybe have a collection-topic for reports in the closed section if this should become a more serious problem.

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i think the dudes Ip addy should be recorded and banned from the private forum... just my thoughts,

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But why not ?

It is free publicity, it will get people interested in the project and eventually they will get more money out of leaks then not.

Excuse me? If leaking videos of early versions of games, and game development guaranteed more money, then why wouldn't everyone do it? No, instead EVERYONE does the OPPOSITE. I can think of a million reasons why it's important NOT to show early versions to the public. Peter Molyneux has learned the hard way the problems that arise from just TALKING about early versions.

This is something that ultimately is decided by DOUBLE FINE. If they ask us not to share things, then we should respect their wishes.

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i think the dudes Ip addy should be recorded and banned from the private forum... just my thoughts,

Sadly, there's no real way to guarantee privacy here. There's plenty of ways that someone can anonymously share stuff.

It's really up to Double Fine to make a statement about how important THEY consider it. As a backer, I'm not terribly fussed if this stuff gets leaked unless it might affect the game's production -- and unfortunately, I think it might.

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Every update backers will now become a nazi police searching the internet for leaks, i think it is lame.

And outdated, but if this is how Double Fine wants it, what can i say.

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You can keep saying it's lame and "not modern" until the cows come home but at the end of the day people paid money to be exclusively shown this material. It's just not fair. Fair is fair and still modern. The minute fair doesn't become modern is the minute I don't want to be modern anymore. I'd rather be outdated. Should we "modernize" so much that we don't have simple respect and honour anymore? There's a point where fighting for something or turning a blind eye on principle goes too far (or not far enough, depending on how you look at it).

Yes, focusing on it publicly will put it in the public eye and we don't want to give it that much attention, which is why I like someone else's idea of having a thread for reporting leaked content in the hidden forums so everything can be dealt with silently and under the radar. But flat out ignoring the issue is just disrespectful to Double Fine and ourselves. Who cares about rules? Let's just not respect them because we don't agree with them? That leads to anarchy and, honestly, is immensely childish. Especially considering we're not dealing with "the man" here, but the awesome group that is Double Fine who wanted to make something special just for us and has already jumped through hoops to do so by giving us what we wanted (DRM free, etc).

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Every update backers will now become a nazi police searching the internet for leaks, i think it is lame.

And outdated, but if this is how Double Fine wants it, what can i say.

Comparing honest backers to nazis? That is just low.

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But why not ?

It is free publicity, it will get people interested in the project and eventually they will get more money out of leaks then not.

Excuse me? If leaking videos of early versions of games, and game development guaranteed more money, then why wouldn't everyone do it? No, instead EVERYONE does the OPPOSITE. I can think of a million reasons why it's important NOT to show early versions to the public. Peter Molyneux has learned the hard way the problems that arise from just TALKING about early versions.

This is something that ultimately is decided by DOUBLE FINE. If they ask us not to share things, then we should respect their wishes.

The only reason a "leak" might generate more money is simple. It happens rarely and people feel like maybe they are getting a taste of something special. If everyone did it it would just become advertisement. For example you don't truly appreciate a bowel movement until you haven't had one in a few day (weeks). Normally a BM would happen every day and therefor not an odd thing. However after a week of nothing you can actually enjoy the relief that comes with something special eventhough it was once normal........

My brain ran away from the topic at hand and I apologize.

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Every update backers will now become a nazi police searching the internet for leaks, i think it is lame.

And outdated, but if this is how Double Fine wants it, what can i say.

Oh, please.

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Every update backers will now become a nazi police searching the internet for leaks, i think it is lame.

And outdated, but if this is how Double Fine wants it, what can i say.

So far DF didn't do anything, we did.

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Every update backers will now become a nazi police searching the internet for leaks, i think it is lame.

And outdated, but if this is how Double Fine wants it, what can i say.

So far DF didn't do anything, we did.

Because Double Fine wishes it.

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Every update backers will now become a nazi police searching the internet for leaks, i think it is lame.

And outdated, but if this is how Double Fine wants it, what can i say.

So far DF didn't do anything, we did.

Because Double Fine wishes it.

Speaking just for myself: Because i can see why they wish that and because i agree with that. If you feel threatened or insulted by our words do so, but i don't get your position about DF's role in this particular matter.

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Every update backers will now become a nazi police searching the internet for leaks, i think it is lame.

And outdated, but if this is how Double Fine wants it, what can i say.

The 2nd Nazi-Metapher in a few hours on this Forum? Really? Man, thats just really really low... :-(

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Well that is what it think, i am not leaking content but i am not against it and this project is open to 86,000 people if there is going to be backlash it is coming from the people that paid for this, things won't get worse because the masses got to see a few documentary episodes and/game art and the like.

If anything what Double Fine produces and the general public is able to see will attract more interest not less.

I am going to lay low now i already spoke my mind.

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Thanks for not flaming each other so far though.

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Well that is what it think, i am not leaking content but i am not against it and this project is open to 86,000 people if there is going to be backlash it is coming from the people that paid for this, things won't get worse because the masses got to see a few documentary episodes and/game art and the like.

If anything what Double Fine produces and the general public is able to see will attract more interest not less.

I am going to lay low now i already spoke my mind.

It's not about not attracting interest. It's about not being a douche to everyone else.

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Hey guys,

this is not becoming the educated discussion I was hoping for. Perhaps i wrote to much (in general but also with my broken English).

I´ll address two points several postings seem have brought up.

1. "It´s what DF/2PP want!"

I addressed this in my wall of text. They also wanted to create DRM protected PC game for 400.000$. A lot changed, what you could see come up in the first 24 hours were a lot of people asking for a DRM free version as well as for Linux, OSX, iOS and Android Versions. And they said, ok, if you want it we´ll do it. - And especially Linux and DRM free are two points most game developers of a certain size would never consider.

So with that in mind we can also talk about how to handle these Videos being leaked. - If there is a big number of backers stepping up saying "It´s ok to ask people not to leak it, but lets not make a big deal of it if the inevitable happens. Maybe there even is some free mareting value in this." i am sure they will consider it.

2. "All these backers paid and their money needs to be protected."

Answer/Question Batch #1

Yes, but do you really claim to never have downloaded anything illegal? No MP3? No Movie? No Game? I am sorry but if you claim this i´ll loose my faith in your honesty. If you missed this kickstarter but are a big fan of the old adventure games, would you look for a way in? Rather watch the Show illegally than not at all? I know what my answer would be...

Answer/Question Batch #2

This is exactly the argument every big company would bring to the table. It´s the reasoning why Ubisoft thinks it´s right to use punishing DRM. It´s the reasoning Sony uses to block a ton of YouTube Videos. It´s the reasoning Universal and such use to justify region coding on DVDs/BRDs... do you like that these company's do this stuff? Have you noticed that everyone who wants to get this stuff illegal (or just imported) still finds a way to do so? Did you notice that games/movies/cds that use no DRM still can sell big (World of Goo, the Witcher... heck even iTunes Music is basicly DRM free right now) because if people want to pay and are given a fair option to do so will do it?

3. "There is another Topic about this!"

The other Topic is ABOUT the video Update. I opened this Topic so we can talk about the problem of stuff leaking in general. - If we don´t have a Topic like this... ever.... EVERY... topic about a new DF/2PP Video will turn into a debate of "Hunt it down" or "don´t" instead of being purely about the contend of the Video. - Because trust me, just like about Linux or DRM free there are a lot of people feeling strongly about banning and blocking everywhere.

4. "Stupid Nazi reverence"

I have been actively using this forum for one day and already came across two of those. Whats up with that?! o_O

5.

To shake your beer or to shake a bear?

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It's about what Double Fine wants to do! They want it private (for good reasons) so it should stay private.

We have to learn that free access to information does not mean anarchy.

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"They also wanted to create DRM protected PC game for 400.000$"

That's not what they wanted, that's what they thought was realistic. If you asked Tim what he really wanted, this figure would be much higher right from the beginning.

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