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ThunderPeel2001

POLL: Leaking backers content

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Choose the answer you think reflects how you feel MOST STRONGLY. There will undoubtedly be cross over, so go with the one that fits how you feel BEST.

If you're not a backer: please pick one of the two "I'M NOT A BACKER" options! (I suspect a lot of non-backers will select "DON'T CARE".)

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DON’T LIKE: I don’t want people to see content I’ve paid for free, and to respect DF's wishes.
Wouldn't it be 2pp that doesn't want the stuff leaked though? It's their documentary.

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DON’T LIKE: I don’t want people to see content I’ve paid for free, and to respect DF's wishes.
Wouldn't it be 2pp that doesn't want the stuff leaked though? It's their documentary.

It's not just the documentary, it's concept art, story spoilers, and game assets.

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Don´t care sounds a little bit different than how i would put it. As you saw me writing a book on this already i do care a lot. :) And it´s not a question of right or wrong, it´s a question of public relations, because leaks will happen weather you like it or not. It´s how you handle it. All of my thoughts on that are in the other topic.

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DON’T LIKE: I don’t want people to see content I’ve paid for free, and to respect DF's wishes.

That. But i voted for one of the other options for the time being.

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DON’T LIKE: I don’t want people to see content I’ve paid for free, and to respect DF's wishes.

That's why I said to pick the one you feel MOST STRONGLY about. Undoubtedly it will be both, to a degree.

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Don´t care sounds a little bit different than how i would put it. As you saw me writing a book on this already i do care a lot. :) And it´s not a question of right or wrong, it´s a question of public relations, because leaks will happen weather you like it or not. It´s how you handle it. All of my thoughts on that are in the other topic.

Just pick the one that comes closest to how you feel, even if it's not worded exactly how you'd put it.

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Yes, i already clicked on "Don´t care." Just posted to clarify that i don´t feel like "not careing" is what i express with that click. :) It sounds like a question of respect answered with "i disrespect" - which i dont. It sould be a question of how you handle things that are a given these days (weather you like it or not). And frankly nobody likes how many companies handling them these days so why would "we" handle them the same way?

So in my eyes the pool should be.

How should "we" handle it when things get leaked?

Put down the Hammer!!! Just like Sony, Universal or FOX would do it? Block, ban, sue!

This has been born on the internet so it shall live on the Internet! With all it´s up and down sites.

Errr, i don´t know, something inbetween. It´s not that i don´t care, but can i please play the game instead of talking about this?

:)

The best Premium we got is being able to talk with the developers right here anyway. And the warm an fuzzy feeling that we made it happen.

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DON’T LIKE: I don’t want people to see content I’ve paid for free, and to respect DF's wishes.

This is where I'm at too.

This extra stuff isn't only a reward for people who donated, it's a reason to donate to begin with. The extras could be the thing that turn this kickstarter anomaly into a new way that games are funded. I mean, why do people pre-order games from stores when actual game shortages on the release date are so rare? It's the extras. I know that access to the extras is what put me (a freshly graduated, unemployed programmer) over the top as far as the decision to donate was concerned.

Hopefully, future kickstarter funded games will be able to use extras in a manner similar to that of how pre-orders are used now. Except that with kickstarter, the money will be going directly to the developer instead of into some convoluted deal that also involves the stores and the distributor.

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DON’T LIKE: I don’t want people to see content I’ve paid for free, and to respect DF's wishes.

This is where I'm at too.

This extra stuff isn't only a reward for people who donated, it's a reason to donate to begin with. The extras could be the thing that turn this kickstarter anomaly into a new way that games are funded. I mean, why do people pre-order games from stores when actual game shortages on the release date are so rare? It's the extras. I know that access to the extras is what put me (a freshly graduated, unemployed programmer) over the top as far as the decision to donate was concerned.

Hopefully, future kickstarter funded games will be able to use extras in a manner similar to that of how pre-orders are used now. Except that with kickstarter, the money will be going directly to the developer instead of into some convoluted deal that also involves the stores and the distributor.

Look at this. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

None of the rewards include behind the scenes video or early concept art or anything. Yet they have already exceeded their goal. This stuff getting out isn't going to stop people from donating to Kickstarter.

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Look at this. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

None of the rewards include behind the scenes video or early concept art or anything. Yet they have already exceeded their goal. This stuff getting out isn't going to stop people from donating to Kickstarter.

In THAT instance, sure. That doesn't mean that other exclusive things aren't going to be immediately devalued when people share them. You can't use one example as proof of everything forever.

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I certainly don't care about exclusivity... In fact I dislike it most of the time, but I understand that there will be backers who will feel cheated if all the exclusive content finds its way around the internet. I imagine Double Fine wish to maintain the exclusivity of the content for that reason, so I feel like we should help maintain it out of respect to Double Fine, even if for no other reason.

We all pledged because we, in one way or another, have respect for Double Fine, so it shouldn't be a stretch for us to respect their wishes here, right? Lets just enjoy the content.

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Look at this. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

None of the rewards include behind the scenes video or early concept art or anything. Yet they have already exceeded their goal. This stuff getting out isn't going to stop people from donating to Kickstarter.

In THAT instance, sure. That doesn't mean that other exclusive things aren't going to be immediately devalued when people share them. You can't use one example as proof of everything forever.

Of course not, but you also can't say that this will effect other Kickstarters with any degree of certainty.

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@Leroy Rocktopus: Interesting thoughts.

I would point out though that the fact that people respond to incentives is one of the basic things that economics is built upon and that by offering incentives such as extras, people are more likely to donate. Not only would this help out projects that would have otherwise not met their goal but it would also help projects that have would already have met there goal (such as Double Fine Adventure) raise even more money than they would have otherwise.

Now the best way to offer incentives for a thing like a game is to leverage some of its natural animal by-products such as documentaries, special boxes, etc. Once people start to believe that these things, once released, will immediately become free for everyone they will cease being incentives. It's the classic free-rider problem.

I would also point out that donating to kickstarter is kinda trendy right now. Once the novelty of funding games through kicksarter wears off people are going to find that they are left with the increased risk of having their money tied up in something that may very well never come to fruition. It's another basic principle of economics that if you want people to bear increased risk you need to offer them increased rewards. Rewards such as extras. It's the extras that are going to prompt people to donate rather than wait for other people to fund the game and just buy it in the store.

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It's already been taken care of.

The Youtube-Video doesn't exist anymore.

Just notify Double Fine or 2PP whenever you see a video on Youtube and it'll soon be deleted.

I see no problem. Just keep your eyes open from time to time.

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It's already been taken care of.

The Youtube-Video doesn't exist anymore.

Just notify Double Fine or 2PP whenever you see a video on Youtube and it'll soon be deleted.

I see no problem. Just keep your eyes open from time to time.

It's still there, you just can't search for it any more. It's only had 300 views. It's also had something like 160 downvotes, and 9 upvotes. The uploader removed it from YouTube's listings because of all the crap people were giving him... but it's there if you know the link.

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I'm personally not that fussed (people download things, glass houses etc) but my Double Fine-love pushes me into the "whatever THEY want" camp. So #1 for me.

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@Leroy Rocktopus: Interesting thoughts.

I would point out though that the fact that people respond to incentives is one of the basic things that economics is built upon and that by offering incentives such as extras, people are more likely to donate. Not only would this help out projects that would have otherwise not met their goal but it would also help projects that have would already have met there goal (such as Double Fine Adventure) raise even more money than they would have otherwise.

Now the best way to offer incentives for a thing like a game is to leverage some of its natural animal by-products such as documentaries, special boxes, etc. Once people start to believe that these things, once released, will immediately become free for everyone they will cease being incentives. It's the classic free-rider problem.

I would also point out that donating to kickstarter is kinda trendy right now. Once the novelty of funding games through kicksarter wears off people are going to find that they are left with the increased risk of having their money tied up in something that may very well never come to fruition. It's another basic principle of economics that if you want people to bear increased risk you need to offer them increased rewards. Rewards such as extras. It's the extras that are going to prompt people to donate rather than wait for other people to fund the game and just buy it in the store.

True, but you can offer things like tshirts and posters and signed copies of the game. Those can't really get leaked. About your first point though, if people stop donating to Kickstarter because of the documentary getting leaked, then by that logic people might as well not donate at all. They could just pirate the game when it released.

I don't think that will happen though. I think the main reason people donated to the DFA, because they generally wanted to help out double Fine, or they wanted a new adventure game made by some old pros. Maybe I'm just an optimist though. I think people are getting a little too carried away with this.

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Incentives definitely help build the numbers up and encourage higher pledges, but I think, for projects which really do cater to healthy but niche markets\audiences who are often neglected, the reward of seeing such a project come into existence is enough to get the genuine enthusiasts pledging. I suspect that long after the buzz and hype has more or less subsided, Kickstarter and other community funding methods will still be viable and potentially very successful for projects which attract genuine interest. Personally I think one of the biggest factors in attracting a large number of backers is the record\reputation of the creators of the project in question. We all support Double Fine with full knowledge of the quality of their work. Unknowns would find it much harder and would have to have something pretty special in their introductory video\info.

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True, but you can offer things like tshirts and posters and signed copies of the game. Those can't really get leaked. About your first point though, if people stop donating to Kickstarter because of the documentary getting leaked, then by that logic people might as well not donate at all. They could just pirate the game when it released.

I actually agree with all of this. Piracy is a big problem for Double Fine and for all developers. Also, people don't expect to get things like tshirts for free which is why they are willing to pay something to get them.

To flip it around why would 2 Player Productions, Double Fine, or any other content company put a bunch of effort into making something if they have no reasonable expectations of being rewarded for their efforts? If a company is considering rewards for a kickstarter campaign and they figure that they, because of rampant piracy, won't get any more donations if they offer a documentary. Goodby Documentary, hello tshirt.

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@Leroy Rocktopus: Interesting thoughts.

I would point out though that the fact that people respond to incentives is one of the basic things that economics is built upon and that by offering incentives such as extras, people are more likely to donate. Not only would this help out projects that would have otherwise not met their goal but it would also help projects that have would already have met there goal (such as Double Fine Adventure) raise even more money than they would have otherwise.

Now the best way to offer incentives for a thing like a game is to leverage some of its natural animal by-products such as documentaries, special boxes, etc. Once people start to believe that these things, once released, will immediately become free for everyone they will cease being incentives. It's the classic free-rider problem.

I would also point out that donating to kickstarter is kinda trendy right now. Once the novelty of funding games through kicksarter wears off people are going to find that they are left with the increased risk of having their money tied up in something that may very well never come to fruition. It's another basic principle of economics that if you want people to bear increased risk you need to offer them increased rewards. Rewards such as extras. It's the extras that are going to prompt people to donate rather than wait for other people to fund the game and just buy it in the store.

True, but you can offer things like tshirts and posters and signed copies of the game. Those can't really get leaked. About your first point though, if people stop donating to Kickstarter because of the documentary getting leaked, then by that logic people might as well not donate at all. They could just pirate the game when it released.

I don't think that will happen though. I think the main reason people donated to the DFA, because they generally wanted to help out double Fine, or they wanted a new adventure game made by some old pros. Maybe I'm just an optimist though. I think people are getting a little too carried away with this.

I will say that the tier of rewards I will receive are only digital, and I would be irritated if they leak soon after made available to backers. I'd be a bit irked that I didn't go with a lower tier, since I was seriously on the fence between two tiers and went with the higher one because the added perks made the difference worth it to me. Make the perks moot, and I'd feel a bit deflated about my decision. Now, I don't mean if you show it to a friend I'm going to be pissed, but I will be put out if it goes up on a website for all the world to download soon after I get to see it.

I also suspect that DF wants to do right by their backers as well as protect their ip, so I can't see them being too fond of leaks either.

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All I was saying was leaks will happen, but I don't think it's going to effect anything very much. I would like to point out though that there are people interested in this game besides those who backed it or couldn't afford to back it. I have seen posts in a lot of forums and comments on game sites that said "I would have backed it if I knew anything about the game". Thought I should point that out since people seem to think only backers and a few other people are interested.

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NOT ENOUGH OPTIONS: I don't care about what I've paid for and what they haven't. I feel that it would be nice if people used discretion, but with this many... supporters leaks are inevitable, so no reason to fret over them. I would like it if leaks were discouraged, but if anyone looses sleep over them, they are being naive. Also, I'm a backer.

EDIT: As for copyright infringement, it's hard to agree with anyone still acting like it is killing any industry when the entertainment industry is one of the main thriving industries in this recession. It would be much less of a problem if companies didn't horde their intellectual property to an unreasonable amount. Public domain needs to come back in a big way before copyright infringement starts to dwindle to only the darkest corners of the Internet.

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Regardless of consequences my feeling on the matter is shame on those who do leak content. When this game is finally finished, others who didn't want to buy something they "knew nothing about" will be able to look at reviews and footage to make their decision then.

But I see myself among a group of people who cared enough for Adventure genre and specifically the classics that Tim Schafer was a part of to put my money and faith into this, so it's a matter of respect. Not only did he request not to leak anything but it should be common decency not to anyway.

The same goes for just about any beta test, but nonetheless there will always be those who just feel the rules don't apply to them. People like that deserve no excuses or devil's advocate.

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Tim Schafer has been very awesome to us over the years, the very least you can do is respect his wishes and report leaked content to Double Fine.

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Of course not, but you also can't say that this will effect other Kickstarters with any degree of certainty.

Uh. Yes we can. (Are you paying attention to what's being said?) You responded to a person's own experience, where they said the extras are what tipped them over the edge into donating. So one thing we CAN say for sure is that SOME people will NOT donate if extras are devalued to the point where they're no longer offered.

Offering exclusive access to premium content means extras that are very cheap to produce. Offering t-shirts and other real-world goods costs money, which eats into what's raised, which means they need to raise more money to get the same budget. So it definitely WILL affect Kickstarter projects. That, at least, is a cast iron fact.

By how much is anyone's guess, but you just want to seem to try and justify going against Double Fine's wishes by any means you can.

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True, but you can offer things like tshirts and posters and signed copies of the game. Those can't really get leaked. About your first point though, if people stop donating to Kickstarter because of the documentary getting leaked, then by that logic people might as well not donate at all. They could just pirate the game when it released.

I actually agree with all of this. Piracy is a big problem for Double Fine and for all developers. Also, people don't expect to get things like tshirts for free which is why they are willing to pay something to get them.

To flip it around why would 2 Player Productions, Double Fine, or any other content company put a bunch of effort into making something if they have no reasonable expectations of being rewarded for their efforts? If a company is considering rewards for a kickstarter campaign and they figure that they, because of rampant piracy, won't get any more donations if they offer a documentary. Goodby Documentary, hello tshirt.

It´s been very interesting looking at some people during the time of the kickstarter and now. From people speaking out publicly on how DFA should pay less of a Kickstarter percentage because they made a lot of money (i will never in all my live get why there are people that think that somebody who has more should take less of a cut) to this debate and them becomming very EA about things.

Yes. There is piracy and i am sure some people suffered greatly by the hands of it. But it always has been there. Wether it be "Don´t copy that floppy!", Audio and VHS cassets, CDs, DVDs or digital Downloads. Yet still a lot of people keep buying and even games released DRM free keep selling, selling very good in fact.

If you entered this Project at any stage and thought to yourself:

- The DRM free game will never be leaked. (maybe even the beta, i have no idea how often Steam stuff gets cracked open)

- The Digital PDF will never be leaked.

- Non of the digital Videos will ever get leaked.

- The digital Soundtrack won´t get leaked.

I´ll call you not very aware of the internet. (and yes, i am sure, you - who is reading this right now - are the one and only person that never downloaded any file illegally. You don´t need to inform me about this. ;) )

In my eyes what you exclusivly get for backing this project and no one can take from you:

- The warm and fuzzy feeling of actually making happen what many people wanted but no big company wanted to put a dime behind. (game, docu, linux suport ect.)

- The option to influence development on the private forums.

- The Beta without any hassle of cracking/looking around on shady websites that might carry viruses.

- A bunch of physical collectible items depending on your level as a backer.

This is how it is. There is no question about it.

What now:

- We looose nothing. We still get to see the Docu, it´s not that anyone steels the option to watch it from us.

- DF/2PP dos not loose money because there simply is no more option to buy it.

- People seeing it on the outside will strongly consider backing other kickstarter projects because they see what they are missing on the inside.

- The chance that a fan following outside of the project grows big and generates a big amount of day one sales when the game gets released is big.

- The chance that you end up looking like a dick if you fight this people is given (no one likes the law departments of Sony, Universal, Paramount and so on) therfore you risk that people feel more right about themselves when pirating the game later and give up the free publicety comming with the last point. (since sharing is careing!)

+ I bet my life that more people will buy the game and (if on sale) the documentary if you just turn a blind eye to stuff getting leaked during the next year. Thats how the internet works. I grew up with it the past 20 years. - To be fair to your backers you should not encourage it, but wasting time and money on hunting it down and maybe even sanctioning it... is like willingly takeing an arrow to the knee. And you know the chans of adventure gets very much smaller if you take an arrow to the knee.

I´ll now go and watch the 3ed Episode of Awake. I had to illegally download it because no one wants to sell it to me over here in Germany... (well, maybe no one here owns the rights to it so it´s not illegal at all, but i´ed love to pay for it since the show shapes up to something pritty amazing...)

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Of course not, but you also can't say that this will effect other Kickstarters with any degree of certainty.

Uh. Yes we can. (Are you paying attention to what's being said?) You responded to a person's own experience, where they said the extras are what tipped them over the edge into donating. So one thing we CAN say for sure is that SOME people will not donate if extras are devalued to the point where they're no longer offered.

Offering exclusive access to premium content means extras that are very cheap to produce. Offering t-shirts and other real-world goods costs money, which eats into what's raised, which means they need to raise more money to get the same budget. So it definitely WILL affect Kickstarter projects. That, at least, is a cast iron fact.

By how much is anyone's guess, but you just want to seem to try and justify going against Double Fine's wishes by any means you can.

I am not trying to justify going against Double Fine's wishes! I do not plan on watching anything that gets leaked! You are completely misinterpreting my statements! Exclamation marks!!!

My whole point was I really don't think this is going to hurt Double Fine or other Kickstarters as much as a lot of you seem to think it will. You guys really seem incredibly pessimistic about this whole thing, and I was trying to bring some optimism. Anyway, what Monkey Mania said was all kinds of right. All anyone can do is report any leaks and move on. I don't know why we need three threads for this.

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