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ThunderPeel

How much say should backers have?

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I'm going to be really dull and say NONE*, just so the guys can see plenty of us support them in following their vision and not trying to accommodate others. The reasons why are well covered in this thread. I'm sure they have already considered the subject.

That said, I see no harm in all of us chattering away to one another with our thoughts or wishes. Double Fine might see an idea they like and run with it, or they might print the particularly stupid ones so the whole team can laugh at them.

* None in principal. I'm sure they'll ask for input where it seems appropriate, which will be double fine.

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I said it before in another thread, but I don't want backers to have a lot of input on the game at all.

I think it'd be nice if they showed us stuff every once and a while and said "what do you think of this?" to get some opinions, like a focus group of sorts. I mean, they have their target audience right here in one place, so it'd be a good use of backers as a resource. Nothing more than that though.

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I'll be blunt... the backers must have NO say at all. I mean, backers should be free to provide feedback, suggestions, ideas, and Double Fine will most likely look through all that and use some of the good stuff that will be there. That's all understandable, expected and encouraged. But in no way should any of the 90,000 backers feel entitled that the developers implement whatever the backers say should be implemented. It's ultimately DF's game, not the backers' game.

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I'm all for discussion on what we'd like to see, and ideas and suggestions, and especially before Tim gives us any real details it's only natural that there's going to be wild speculation; there's nothing wrong with a bit of enthusiasm. Our input to the game will likely (and should) only be general feedback when the beta comes around and participation in polls as the developers see fit, again likely only on fairly small things.

I really do hope that there's some official word soon to manage expectations a little though; at this point I wouldn't be surprised if a horde of backers turn up at the Double Fine offices tomorrow morning asking where their desks are...

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I'm surprised most people have said none. I think a little participation will keep people interested and happy. For example...

"Which outfit is best for the main character?"

"Send us some artwork ideas about what you want the main character to look like!"

That way people can voice their opinions and feel like they are participating in the game. But ultimately the decision is DF's. In the first example, a poll is exactly the kind of feedback DF would want, without giving up their creative license on the game. In the 2nd example, they could get ideas from the community, but if they all suck they could throw em all out and no one would be the wiser.

I feel these solutions might be appropriate for the level of participation the community could have in the making of the game. Although, if you look at the Poll for what kind of artwork would you like the game to have. There is OVERWHELMING support for 2D Hand Drawn. When the community is this vocal and unified on a certain item, I think it is best for DF to listen in.

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I also agree "none" or "when prompted". I think even coming with too much suggestions and "advice" can be hurtful. In fact, if this forum continues with the same kind of threads that Ive seen so far (what settings do we want, what puzzles, what items), I hope tim nor ron nor anyone on the team ever even reads it, to be frank. making a good game is probably hard enough without worrying about a bunch of idiots off of the internet (and I can say that since I include myself) shouting down your earhole.

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I agree 100% with everyone who says "none."

As a software developer, I've been on many teams where there have been too many opinions on how something is done, which ends up ruining a project. Also, I didn't back a community-designed game, I backed a Double Fine game, which is the quality I think we all expect at the end of this thing.

None?

NONE?

Hey... I PAID to have a say!

I DEMAND to have my say!

I want a say because that's what I paid for!

In fact based on what I paid and the total money raised this game should be about 0.0000044% exactly what I say!

...

I would like to list my demands at this point... however it appears I have already used up my quota.

Rest assured though... when this forum has about 250,000 more posts I will be back to say exactly how I want things run around here!

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In fact based on what I paid and the total money raised this game should be about 0.0000044% exactly what I say!

...

I would like to list my demands at this point... however it appears I have already used up my quota.

Rest assured though... when this forum has about 250,000 more posts I will be back to say exactly how I want things run around here!

I laughed! ... giggled, really... maybe tittered...

Whatever it was, it was fun.

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I think when there's an overwhelming consensus, there's probably some validity to what the community is saying, and in those cases what the audience is saying deserves consideration, but ultimately the decision always rests with the artists, as it should.

I think that in some cases, the creator may realize that he is not communicating what he wanted to communicate, for example. And in that case a revision is needed. Mass Effect may be one of these cases, in fact. They shouldn't undo what was done, but adding clarity to it might actually do some favors to the original artistic aspirations of the creators.

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The post above contains too much logic and sense, to balance it I will now proceed to ramble:

I Think everyone should take a rock, sign the rock and place an idea on it. then they should bury the rock in the ground, and water the rock with EXACTLY 37 ml of water daily. I cannot stress enough the fact that you must water the rock with EXACTLY....EXACTLY 37 ml of water. well, I guess you could do 38 ml of water but only on alternating Thursdays. Then after 14 months of watering the rock, you take the rock out of the dirt and weigh it...And that is how you solve for pi

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I DEMAND MORE ADVENTURE FOR THE ADVENTURE GOD!

If you fail me this time Schafer, I'll have no choice but to make you do it again! And maybe I'll beg you to hire me so that I can have some experience in the games industry. And I'll give you more of my money! And...that's probably going to end up happening even if you succeed. But not the point.

Anyway, like most people said. Little to no input from backers is definitely the way to go...unless you know...you wanted to hire a college kid from Colorado who sent you his resumé about two weeks ago and is looking for a summer internship...you know...just saying... just kind of throwing it out there...

But yeah, I have complete and blind faith in Double Fine and know that you guys do know best.

But if I'm playing the beta and there are some really odd ball things in it, I'm going to complain to high heavens about it. Doesn't mean you have to listen to me, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to do it.

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I think some polls would be fine for us to answer, but no backers should interfere their job. That's what we grew with, right? Letting the devs do their thing so we can be blown away...

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really this forum should work like one huge, bubbling focus group. no direct "control" but be the first to see and comment. no one wants to see this game designed by committee, we have to many gray shooter as is.

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I agree with those who say none at all. That's not what the Kickstarter thing was supposed to be. It's more like an extended pre-order.

I don't agree with this. I mean, if you look at it from a certain point of view, yeah, it's like that, but actually it's so much more than that, with the 2 player productions documentary and whatnot.

Anyway, I don't think we even have a say on this matter. The fact is this is DF's game and the only thing we can do is give our opinion when they ask for it and then they'll decide what they do with it.

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Feedback and beta testing (considering for example that only using a real audience you can discover a certain puzzle need improvements) when it will be asked for. So a secondary role.

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It works for Notch and Mojang AB. So why wouldnt it work here?

That said, I don't wish to play producer and tell Double Fine how to do their job. But I do want to see the process of the development, and have the ability to let them know if a characters design sucks before they finalize it.

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I also agree "none" or "when prompted". I think even coming with too much suggestions and "advice" can be hurtful. In fact, if this forum continues with the same kind of threads that Ive seen so far (what settings do we want, what puzzles, what items), I hope tim nor ron nor anyone on the team ever even reads it, to be frank. making a good game is probably hard enough without worrying about a bunch of idiots off of the internet (and I can say that since I include myself) shouting down your earhole.

It's also worth pointing out that the people here are a MINORITY. Most backers aren't on these forums, let alone posting regularly. If the current trends of "What colour logo should the game have?" type threads keeps up, I doubt I'll stick around myself. So it's not fair on the majority of backers if a minority with loud voices change the game... Even polls aren't good in that respect.

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I strongly believe that the backers should be exploited as BETA testers.

By play testing this game to death, we can create something which sets a new standard for quality gaming and, with a little luck, revives the genre by showing the rest of the non-backing world how awesome adventure games can be.

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Let's vote on some riffs for the theme tune! I'm going to say this everywhere it's even tangentially relevant until someone takes notice.

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I think that there is a middle ground that a lot of people posting don't see. Is DF going to let 80,000 opinions rule this game and decide for them what the game should be? of course not. But that doesn't mean that they are just going to have only decisions that are superficial in nature that we can vote on. In Tim's pitch video, he said that this game was going to be made "by the fans, for the fans" and while some things might have changed because of the amount of support they got and how many people are actually backing this game, that doesn't change the fact that DF wants our input on things besides the art design of a few characters or music choices.

I became a backer so I could actually have more than a one way conversation in regards to creating this game. Sure we can't all be game designers and DF isn't going to let us control DF in regards to developing this game. but there is a chance for a real two way relationship between DF as developers and us as Backers where they can(and will) listen to our suggestions and ideas, and they can decide what to do with them. If there are 100 ideas in a forum discussion on how the conversations should go, maybe only two or 3 ideas are really ever considered and tested. but that's why we are backers. to give support, ideas, constructive criticism, have access to a beta to give feedback, and really communicate with the dev team. we get to do all of this because we backed this while others have to wait for the game until some time next year. So between "NO SAY AT ALL" and "80,000 cooks in a kitchen ruining a game", there is a really awesome middle ground where we can react through polls, discussion, BETA testing, and a lot of other stuff, that we as backers can sit while communicating with Double Fine.

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While I agree that there shouldn't be any demanding or stuff of that nature from the backers, at least none that Double Fine listen to. I would not have a problem with them using an idea that someone put forward. It's not direct input but I don't see any reason why one person out of us nearly 90 thousand couldn't think of a great game mechanic that Double Fine found appropriate for their game?

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For a project this large, with so many backers, putting critical game elements up to vote or popular demand would be chaos.

I think we can discuss the general theme of the game, playing style, interface, etc., but the specifics can be very difficult to tackle in such a large community. That's why we donated to DF and entrusted them.

I imagine they'll gather some general feedback on the general elements of the game, but once production goes full swing the last thing the designers and developers need is demanding customers asking for this, that, etc.

If we try to have too much say, then we essentially become the very thing Kickstarter eliminates - middlemen, producers, etc. The direct contact with fans helps give the business an idea of what to sell. Beyond that, it's up to them.

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If we try to have too much say, then we essentially become the very thing Kickstarter eliminates - middlemen, producers, etc.

Very true. I don't want them to be beholden to the loudest members of this community, any more than I want EA to come along and tell them they can't do something.

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Okay, let's put it another way. I think the feeling behind this thread is that some people have already weighed in elsewhere with a grandiose sense of entitlement that they/we should get to design the game. Which is a little alarming, as that's not their/our role in this.

The fact is, nobody outside of Double Fine have any entitlement to anything other than the rewards they paid for. Betas, videos, a finished game, whatever. None of us have a right to how it goes from here, other than to expect an adventure game at the end.

This is DF's creation, and we paid for their creation. Not a game made by committee, which would be horrific.

Read what Tim said:

"Kickstarter ... give the developers the freedom to experiment, take risks, and design without anyone else compromising their vision. ...

Double Fine gets to make the game they want to make, promote it in whatever manner they deem appropriate, and release the finished product on their own terms. Secondly, since they’re only accountable to themselves, there’s an unprecedented opportunity to show the public what game development of this caliber looks like from the inside. "

He also says:

"There will be a private online community set up for the backers to discuss the project with the devs and submit their thoughts and feelings about the game's content and direction, sometimes even voting on decisions when the dev team can't decide."

So sure, Double Fine are interested in a conversation with us; but our influence is limited and what they take from it is at their discretion. Which is the only way this can possibly work. There's some anxiety here that some folk don't understand that principal.

Personally, I trust the devs to be able to find the line between taking on board ideas and not having their internal artistic processes derailed by the mob. But this is a new way of doing things, an adventure in itself, and hopefully we can all enjoy it for what it is.

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+1 Tubusy.

I had already thought this but couldn't be bothered going back to find quotes.

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None.

none whatsoever

We are not making the game... we can not demand anything and Tim's word is final (unless Ron wants to chip in :) )

Our job is A: supply the money (done) and B: Offer feed back and proffer ideas here in these fora. The team at DF can dig through the inevitable mountain of posts that are gonna accumulate and glean what they need to make it the best game possible that they can make.

If them and us are not sepperated in this way then the project will die the death of 87,000 paper cuts that would be design by the largest, meanest, most opinionated committee in history. It wouldnt be prety. and it would be a waste of 3.3million.

we have to remember one of the bigest problems in this industry right now is the publishers interfeering with the creative process and not letting the artists wavw and flow thier magic.

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backers should not have any say unless the devs themselves can't agree with something, then it should be a poll of options, then once the game is beta ready, the backers should be beta testers to make sure the game is bug free

otherwise there should not be any input from backers really, like adding new areras, new puzzles, the devs know what they are doing, I want a game from them not from the backers

enough said really

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I'd prefer backers didn't have any say in DFA development.

Maybe once the core game is done the staff could add eastereggs and whatnot pertaining to the backer forum, but beyond that I'd prefer backers having no creative influence.

I want Doublefine to make the game, not random forum people.

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