Jump to content
Double Fine Action Forums
Sign in to follow this  
xvishon

Open The Source

Do you think the new engine should be made available?  

504 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think the new engine should be made available?

    • Yes!
      158
    • No.
      119
    • Maybe?
      72
    • It could be neat.
      155


Recommended Posts

This is just something I'd Like to see happen. Maybe some will agree maybe some will not. Such is Life.

I know I've looked at a lot of Point and click engines out there AGS / Wintermute / Visionar ...ect these are all great for what they are designed but I would love to see the new double-fine engine go open source so that fans can make there own story's and release them across multiple platforms Being able to go PC/MAC/IOS/ANDROID with fan made adventures may help the small or new devs that dont have the DoubleFine Star power to get 3M in funding from kick-starter a chance to make there dreams come to life to. I think it would be great after the project releases to be able to release the engine or make it open source so that other great ideas can emerge.

What do you guys think. Should a larger community of creative artist gain access to the new tools that may be created?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open Source is nice and all, but it doesn't seem terribly likely for what is ultimately a commercial product. Maybe after a while they will release some tools or the source, but I don't see it happening right away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, that choice is, of course, up to Tim and the DF crew. If you think that releasing the source would be nice, why not make that request known? They won't do it if they feel it's a commercial liability, but opening the engine to others could open a whole new world for modding and fan missions that DF hasn't really tapped with any of its games yet.

So, if it's not financial suicide, why not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally, a poll result that is exactly what I mean to say. It could be neat.

But I have no idea how these things work in terms of commercial products.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, if it were released to the public, it would most likely be much harder to use than the other adventure game-making software out there.

In short, it would be a waste of resources which could be put into making the actual game even better.

Popular tools for making adventure games:

Adventure Game Studio - For making classic point and click games

Visionaire - For making modern p&c games

Wintermute Engine - For making modern p&c games

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's potential but you'll have to wait a lot of time after the game was made. Assuming they do in fact create in-house tools doesn't mean that the tools are ready for public release. Open source requires a lot of code cleanup, you must manage this community, at least in the beginning for the open-source to bring value and you'll still get tons of questions on the source itself. If you go for freeware but closed source it's still a problem since you have to test it for environments that are different than yours and support the community.

The bottom line is that double-fine will have to first create the game and then decide if there is something there worth their time and effort to release to the public.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think going open source with the non-asset side of the engine and maybe the tools would be a good idea... I feel like "in a few years" would be soon enough though... it definitely shouldn't be a development stage consideration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was under the impression that they were going to license a game engine instead of crafting one itself...so that may not make free software possible.

Modding, just sounds odd tbh if this is to have a hand crafted art scheme...I don't see how you can craft something new with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be nice to see the source code of the game becoming open source eventually. It doesn't have to be right at, before or "shortly" after release. But seeing it becoming free software after about 2-5 years would be nice.

They can obviously keep their art under whichever license they desire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can you even make a commercially successful product from open source software? I can think of one example off the bat, RHEL. A game is a far stretch from an operating system, though.

EDIT:

It would be nice to see the source code of the game becoming open source eventually. It doesn't have to be right at, before or "shortly" after release. But seeing it becoming free software after about 2-5 years would be nice.

They can obviously keep their art under whichever license they desire.

Open Source ≠ Free, and the distinction is important. Just because a game is open source does not make it free. For example, Lugaru is open source, but it is not free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John Carmack of id software open the sources of his engines. They are nice as a learning tool for those who wish to become later a developer.

But as some of you said, Open Source is NOT Free Software. The source are copyright work of DF and it will be always.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They could open the source but keep the content. Or just open source the engine, but maintaining a publicly used engine along side making a game? It's like double the work in my opinion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be cool to play around with. I love to idea of getting to chance to make my own game after watching DF make one using the same tools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting answers so far. Just so clarify I also would not expect to see it right away. they should focus on the game. I would not expect it for free. and the idea of open source in this case is just leave the engine not the artwork up for public improvement if someone wanted to do something with it they would still need to create the assets themselves. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that there is a little confusion here as to what it means to open source. It seems like it's a term being used synonymous with “I want a free program that will let me make adventure games and has a game engine I don’t have to license.

Open sourcing simply means no one person can hold exclusive rights to what ever has been open sourced. (actually there are varying degrees of open source licenses but that's way more then I care to get into... or know about). There might not even be a complete piece of software to open source, much of the game could be hand coded. Plus, there is no guarantee it would be user friendly. There are several other things you could open source like the games code, the engine, game assets, characters, story and design. But i don't think that's what's being discussed.

Perhaps a better question would be “Hey Tim, I'd like a Double Fine approved software for creating adventure games!” yeah it would be great if it was free (and I’ve seen software do this successfully see: Blender ) but I bet people would buy it too. Just a thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think an engine should give people freedom to make a game interface and design how they want or how it suits them. There are no guarantees that this engine will be all-compassing like that. It will probably suit this particular game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is just something I'd Like to see happen. Maybe some will agree maybe some will not. Such is Life.

I know I've looked at a lot of Point and click engines out there AGS / Wintermute / Visionar ...ect these are all great for what they are designed but I would love to see the new double-fine engine go open source so that fans can make there own story's and release them across multiple platforms Being able to go PC/MAC/IOS/ANDROID with fan made adventures may help the small or new devs that dont have the DoubleFine Star power to get 3M in funding from kick-starter a chance to make there dreams come to life to. I think it would be great after the project releases to be able to release the engine or make it open source so that other great ideas can emerge.

What do you guys think. Should a larger community of creative artist gain access to the new tools that may be created?

This kind of assumes that what they end up with is an engine in the way that AGS, Wintermute, etc are, which (sadly) is incredibly unlikely.

I think originally they were talking about using an existing engine if there's something suitable for their needs out there, but now that the project has grown I'm not so sure that there is a viable existing engine that has support for all of the target platforms, so odds are they will have to build something custom for this. So there are a few points here...

Engine scope - So far every game Double Fine have made has been wildly different, I don't think there have been any two with the same genre or mechanics; so, appealing as it may be to a lot of folks, I don't think the company is suddenly going to change course and start making loads of point and click adventures, or even making loads of any single type of game. This being the case, the engine they build will likely be designed to make this one game run perfectly, which is hugely different from designing an engine that can be used to make many different games.

Engine Cost - If you're building an engine for a single game, it'll have streamlined feature set built around the requirements of that game. A fully fledged game engine in the AGS/Wintermute sense would mean a lot of extra work on new features needed to support a huge variety of potential adventure games, which in turn means a huge amount of extra coding and testing, and therefore money. All of this is well beyond the scope of what this project was set up as, and the money raised shouldn't be going into anything other than what was originally planned. I really wouldn't want to see Double Fine splitting their focus at this point, extra time worrying about the engine means less on the game, extra money spent on developing the engine means less on the game.

Engine Usability - Also, making something to use in house is very different to making something for wide use; On a small team only a few people need to know their way around the engine, so it only has to be intuitive to them. Any interface and tools can also look ugly as all hell because at the end of the day it just needs to get the job done. There would be a lot of extra work fine tuning and smoothing out the rough edges, adding tools, help systems, and support, even cleaning up the UI and taking all the swearing out of the error messages and code comments.

I'd rather Double Fine make games than build tools - I voted 'It could be neat'; I would really like to have an engine built by Double Fine to play with, but it doesn't really seem like something that would be much fun for them. These guys are all super creative and love making games, I'd be very surprised if the prospect spending huge amounts of time and resources developing tools for other folks to make games with would be particularly appealing to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the engine is good, sure! More open source engines out there, the better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By opening the code to the engine, nobody loses anything. There is just massive universal gain. Developers get a new toy to play with, ScummVM get a new engine to add support for and Double Fine gets oodles of love and attention.

Double Fine do not have to support an engine release nor do anything with it other than bundling it in a tarball. The community will handle everything.

Ideally, the compiled dfa.exe without any source changes should be able to play the DFA. The community will go on from there, guaranteed. In 10 years time, the DFA engine will be the best thing ever ever ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what i think should happen is the game have lua or something similar so the game could be modable. what we need is the ability for modding so others could possably add levels characters or just change the game. we dont need a fully open source engine aslong as we can modify the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open scource: No

Free to try/dev for : Posibly

Licence fee/royalties to realease games developed in engine: most definately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By opening the code to the engine, nobody loses anything. There is just massive universal gain. Developers get a new toy to play with, ScummVM get a new engine to add support for and Double Fine gets oodles of love and attention.

Double Fine do not have to support an engine release nor do anything with it other than bundling it in a tarball. The community will handle everything.

Ideally, the compiled dfa.exe without any source changes should be able to play the DFA. The community will go on from there, guaranteed. In 10 years time, the DFA engine will be the best thing ever ever ever.

That would be cool, I still get the feeling it's fairly unlikely to happen, but who knows... It'll be Double Fine's code, so if they want to release it, it's not like there's a publisher there to complain about it.

My response before was more to the content of the initial post rather than the idea of opening the source btw; Even though the title suggests it, the actual post doesn't seem to be about open source, it seems to be asking more for fully developed software for building adventure games, like AGS or Wintermute. I agree that if the source was released that eventually we would have that, but as you say it'd be years of work on the part of the community before it was a viable option for non-coders to build anything with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The profits are in the game, not the engine. Unless you're in the business of licensing engines, but there's probably little market for that in the adventure gaming scene.

Ergo! Open sourcing the engine would be a very nice gesture, with little or no disadvantages (one can argue), and the community would certainly be most grateful.

Having said that, DF can do whatever they want and it's probably safe to say we're all here for the game. So they have my love anyway. Releasing the engine would just be a nice bonus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it won't happen but i'd like to, just cause it will result in many more adventures on linux platform

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if the basic code was put out there with even one room from the DFA that includes all the basic features. sound, scrolling background, inventory puzzle of some kind, dialogue... ect just enough that the community could see how its put together, that the community would develop or refine things like interface help docs or new features. The part that most interests me is the fact there are so many platforms going to be supported. Also I think there should be a license fee in some amount to release anything made with it for profit. that way doublefine has a stream of income from games others are making and can use the extra to make even better games themselves. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to address a few points brought up in this thread:

Source release does not have to be a generic adventure game engine to be useful. There are many other ways in which such a release could be beneficial to fans and even Double Fine (potentially). It allows others to fix bugs, it allows the game to be ported to other platforms, and it can give the game a longer shelf life. In other words, it lessens dependency on Double Fine to keep the game updated or to port it to new platforms. It can also extend the playable life of the game well beyond the typical commercially supported life. See the benefits of ScummVM and to a lesser extent Residual to Monkey Island, Full Throttle and Grim Fandango for example. See also Aquaria that has received community updates after they GPL'd the engine:

http://www.bit-blot.com/forum/index.php?topic=3797.0

http://www.bit-blot.com/forum/index.php?topic=2304.0

And here's John Carmack on the subject:

Being able to take advantage of the GPL code that other people have maintained and improved over the years has been very satisfying for me. I always argued that we got worthwhile intangible benefits from my policy of releasing the source code to the older games, but with Wolfenstein Classic and DOOM Classic I can now point to significant amounts of labor that I was personally saved. In fact, the products probably never would have existed at all if my only option was to work from the original “dusty deck” source code for the games. If we were even able to find the original code at all. Hooray for open source!

http://www.bethblog.com/2009/11/05/john-carmack-on-doom-classic-development-fan-questions/

Though I'm biased seeing as I donate to the FSF an' all :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course they should release the code - even if they don't support it. Just dump it on the community and let them take over.

I'd also say forget licensing and never charge a penny for it - DF, as a maker of adventure games, benefits from an active and interested market place. The more people buying and talking about adventure games means the more people buying and talking about the latest DF offering.

Re: some of the naysayers further up, in that interview with Tim and Ron (iirc it was that vid), they stress how important it is for every artist to be able to tinker with the code, so if they create and in-house tool then it will almost certainly be easy to use, because that is the way the process works best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't even know that DoubleFine are making their own engine at this point - they're currently weighing their options and looking at off-the-shelf engines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a commercial product, so this is never going to happen or if it does, not for a long time.

I'd like it to happen though, but to be honest there is enough good open source stuff out there, give the Doom 3 engine a try, that went open source a few months back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...