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Spanish subtitles and language

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(you can discard any kind of Spanish nationalism as I haven't seen a less patriotic country than Spain)

Sorry, where are you from? it's not my intention to patronize, but you haven't been around here lately have you? because the country is completely broken almost one quarter versus three of people who want to preserve regional differences and culture ("nacionalistas") and people who say that Spanish language and mainstream culture should prevail and Spain is the best in all the world and many of them get off with the national anthem and use the reknown "Osborne bull" with the national flag as an icon ("centristas")

I don't mean to say that nationalism is a factor in dubbing tendencies in spain, because I think actually it's more about literacy: the level of english in spanish public schools is very, very low in comparison with the rest of the european countries, mostly because of lazyness for the students and the unwillingness to raise the required minimum level for the government (thus risking lowering literacy rates during their terms, basically because the lazy students won't work harder anyway)

Anyways the discussion is shifting from "should they dub?" to "why in spain they always dub?" so i'm calling it over for me here. If anyone wants to know a bit more about spanish nationalism on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_nationalism but it's rather scarce compared to the spanish version

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(you can discard any kind of Spanish nationalism as I haven't seen a less patriotic country than Spain)

Sorry, where are you from? it's not my intention to patronize, but you haven't been around here lately have you? because the country is completely broken almost one quarter versus three of people who want to preserve regional differences and culture ("nacionalistas") and people who say that Spanish language and mainstream culture should prevail and Spain is the best in all the world and many of them get off with the national anthem and use the reknown "Osborne bull" with the national flag as an icon ("centristas")

I don't mean to say that nationalism is a factor in dubbing tendencies in spain, because I think actually it's more about literacy: the level of english in spanish public schools is very, very low in comparison with the rest of the european countries, mostly because of lazyness for the students and the unwillingness to raise the required minimum level for the government (thus risking lowering literacy rates during their terms, basically because the lazy students won't work harder anyway)

Anyways the discussion is shifting from "should they dub?" to "why in spain they always dub?" so i'm calling it over for me here. If anyone wants to know a bit more about spanish nationalism on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_nationalism but it's rather scarce compared to the spanish version

I'm from Spain, and although it's true that I've been living abroad for quite a while I'm perfectly aware of the current situation, enough to be able to see what you're up to. I wrote that sentence meaning that, leaving aside those two conflicting extreme minorities you've described (because it's far from being the whole country as you've pictured it, fortunately), people are on average much less patriotic than in any other European country (and I include myself in this group). Other than that clarification I have no intention of starting any political discussion on a gaming forum (or any other place for that matter).

Btw I agree with all your comments on the Spanish educational system. Actually I would say that what you've written about the low level of English applies to most of the other subjects taught at school :) But that, again, falls out of the scope of this thread and this forum.

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It's equally painful for us spanish to have to hear some dubbings with latin american voices or subs, with all the people talking with vos or ustedes instead of tu and vosotros, or "el mesero de la cantina estaba platicando con las chiquitas que estaban tomando y le decia 'qué hacen ustedes de luego'"....

also, why in latin america they call Homer "Homero"... it's just strange

so, all that applies for us also applies for you, don't come thinking yours is the only valid point of view. Also, I put the dubbing in english in every game I can, even if it is spanish english, just because all spanish dubbing for games is just bad. They don't want to spend enough money to make good dubbings so that's how it always end up as.

great!

in neustral spanish nerver must be used VOS.. it must be use TU

USTEDES is equally recognized by you in the REAL ACADEMIA ESPAÑOLA diccionary. and is a form of verbal time.

the literal translation of HOMER to spanish is HOMERO. its a law in spain that the first name an last name of a person or character must be respected as the original. and if a word of a thing or something come from another country must be respected in accent and pronuntianion.

thats why you say Vídeo with accent in the I and latin american said VIDéO with accent in E.. because VIDEO is a english word.

is the same law that all the movies must be dubbed...

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This thread is like being inside an adventure graphic's gag... (a discussion about which spanish is better, Castillian Spanish or Neutral Spanish, could be easily a fun dialogue for a Monkey Island adventure :-P )

Usually, in the movies industry the translation is made in two versions: a neutral one for Latin America and a Spanish from Spain, for, well.. Spain

But in the games is different since it's not very common that games are dubbed to Neutral Spanish, partly i think it's because the Spain market is more important than Latin America (at least for now)

Anyway, as for me, i will play the game in English version, and will turn subtitles on, if available (don't care if they are Castillian, or Neutral, btw i loved playing Monkey Island subtitled in Castillian spanish back in the days, i think it contributed to the whole atmosphere).

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I think it would be better having two Spanish subtitles (Castillian and Neutral) and no Spanish dubbing at all. It would be cheaper (I guess) and personally I do not like dubbing in most cases.

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I think it would be better having two Spanish subtitles (Castillian and Neutral) and no Spanish dubbing at all. It would be cheaper (I guess) and personally I do not like dubbing in most cases.

+1. Actually there are some nice dubbings, like those of Grim Fandango or MI3, but in this case I prefer them to dedicate the resources to the game itself rather than to the localization. Although maybe this is a pointless discussion, as I think I read somewhere that there would be only English voices and the rest would be subtitles (I'm not 100% sure about this though).

EDIT: Yep, now I'm 100% sure, as DF Greg has posted this in the thread about primary languages: "Hey guys, wanted to give a bit more clarification on this. The game will have English voice and EFIGS localized text as we already have stated. You will be able to change your language at any time, so if you want English, you won’t have another language forced on you."

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I think one of the earlier post got it right. Have the game to have the option to import a fan made text translation, so that way the game could be translated to more than 20 languages if fans work on them. It could be done by a wiki of some sorts, where latin american people would join forces translating the English version. Same for Brazilian Portuguese, or Polish, or russian, or arab. After 20 or so people agrees on that translation, maybe DF could support the non-official fan translation and publish it on the game website.

And yes, hearing a Spanish dub if you are from Latin america is the same as hearing a Latin dub if you are in Spain. It sounds awful for both parties.

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I'm Spanish from Spain. The neutral Spanish for us is awful, the same way it seems that Spanish from Spain is awful for Latinoamerica ones. My vote, obviously is for a Spanish Castillian one.

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I don’t think it's about the choices of words; it's more about the quality of the dubbing actors.

I'm Latin American, but I love the Spain dubs of Monkey Island and Grimm Fandango because they gave life to the characters regardless of the accent. But other dubbed games like Alice Madness Returns, FEAR or secret files Tunguska make me want to puke and kick the dub actors in the face because they are badly reading a script with no emotions involved at all.

In movies, for example in "Pan's Labyrinth", I had to switch on the Spanish subs because it was very difficult to understand what they were speaking since it had too much hiss on the words specially when the women whispered... and they whispered a lot.

Same happens in the newer Simpsons Latin dubs, they completely lack emotion and life while the old dubbing actors made the franchise even better than the original English voices.

So, for me is not about it being dubbed in Latin America or Spain, but it being dubbed by quality actors.

Unfortunately, the gaming/software market in Latin America is highly driven by piracy, so there has never been a real effort of dubbing for our market since it's going to get pirated right away and companies will lose money.

I prefer it if they focus on the English voices and use the money on a better longer product instead of paying for more voices in different languages.

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I'm from Ecuador, and I have a few thoughts to add to the conversation. Well more than a few actually, so this might get a little long, still a cookie if you read it all.

First of all, in my opinion, discussions about which Spanish to use almost always come down to the dub, and while it's true that there is no "true neutral" Spanish, it is true that Spanish in Latin america sounds (phonetics only) similar enough, so it's very much understood and is not too grating to hear for most countries here. Whereas Castillian Spanish, sounds very, VERY weird to us Latin Americans. It's kinda like trying to understand a Scotsman, to be honest. And I imagine the same things happens in Spain with Latin American dubbing.

Every country has it's own idiosyncrasies in how certain words are pronounced, where the accent in certain words go, and even in the cadence of their regional variation of Spanish, check the difference between how an Argentinian Sounds vs a Mexican vs a Chilean, the "song quality" of their speech is very different (or for American English, the difference in how a Texan sounds vs a New Yorker). And that is not even counting differences INSIDE those countries, for example, here in Ecuador there is a noticeable difference between how someone from the capital, Quito, sounds vs someone from Guayaquil, which is the largest city here.

To give a concise example, Argentina is very weird about accents in relation to the rest of Latin America, take for example the word stop: "Para". For most LA countries the accent goes in the first A, while in Argentina the accent usually goes in the last A. Some might argue that the Argentinian way is not correct according to the "Real Academia de la Lengua Española"(Royal Academy of Spanish Language, the body that is charged with codifying the "correct" way of taking in Spanish), but to my mind, it's not actually Right or Wrong, it's just a regional and cultural difference.

But having said that, it's worth noting that most Latin American dubbing is done with a somewhat neutral accent and pronunciation, which is mostly done by taking the "official" pronunciation of most words, by official I mean the pronunciation that is most easily understood by most countries, or in other words, no THICK accents.

And then we come to slang, which is what I think most of the discussions regarding translations usually center around. Slang is a very cultural and regional thing, which makes a true neutral translation next to impossible, since Slang is somewhat akin to pop culture and is something that gives a particular language and dialect it's "soul", when doing a localization, you could try to do a translation that does not use any slang, but it would sound too formal and that does not work for most characters, a kid would not talk that formally and that would make the character sound very weird, especially if see how he behaves on the screen.

Since Slang is so particular to every country and region, there is no way we can choose one to fit all, so you do what you can and hope it's understood by context.

For example quite a lot of Spaniards here were saying that here in Latin America "coger" means to have sex, well that is patently not true, that is mainly an Argentinian slang, here in Ecuador, "coger" means to pick up or grab something. For sex we have actually two slang words, "tirar" and "culear", the difference been them is that "tirar" is not actually that offensive, while "culear" is considered very offensive.

By the way "Tirar" also means to throw, the difference is mainly understood by context and also whether we use possessives while saying it or not. So If I said: "La voy a tirar" it would mean: I'm going to throw her, while if I said: "Me la voy a tirar"("me" being a possessive) it would mean: I'm goint to have sex with her.

But those slang words work only here in Ecuador; Argentina, Mexico, Chile, Venezuela,etc they all have their particular slang words. (So if the Spaniards could stop lumping us all together as one big ass country, that would be nice ;-) )

Having said that, It's not impossible to create a dub that is satisfactory for most of Latin America, it's just very Hard. For example, the Mexican dubbing of Dragon Ball Z is loved by, I believe, all of Latin America.

And since we are not having dubs, then you only have to think about localizing the jokes and slang, which would rather be well served by having the community do the more regional translations, so I would kindly suggest for the option to do that.

I hope that was informative to some of you at least. And yes I realize that this got a little long winded, but stuff happens, in this case, words.

EDIT: It's worth saying that in my example of the word stop, I was specifically referring to how stop is pronounced in Buenos Aires, and TV ads and series that manage to get here, if the word stop is pronounced differently in other parts of Argentina, I do not know since I haven't been there.

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when I heard first time Halo in Neutral Spanish I couldn´t believe my ears. I prefer a single existing language castilian, argentinian, mexican, instead of that weird thing I heard in Halo.

Anyway for DFA I don´t like the idea of the jokes to be translated and localized. The meaning of them will change depending on the translator/localizator inventiveness.

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hi! if doublefine have problem to make spanish voices, please talk with FX Interactive for a physical version in our country, in spain they sell normal/indie games like deponia or Runaway with full localization to a cheap price (20€)

I want spanish voice from spain!!!

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Having said that, It's not impossible to create a dub that is satisfactory for most of Latin America, it's just very Hard. For example, the Mexican dubbing of Dragon Ball Z is loved by, I believe, all of Latin America.

The Simpsons Mexican dub.

Batman AS and Animaniacs Venezuelan dub.

Those are well beloved by all Latin America too IMO.

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Whereas Castillian Spanish, sounds very, VERY weird to us Latin Americans. It's kinda like trying to understand a Scotsman, to be honest. And I imagine the same things happens in Spain with Latin American dubbing.

Here's a vote for having the voices done by a scottish cast! (Or Australian, or something else that adds a bit of colour.) That'd be great.

(Yep, I'm another Scandinavian who can't really understand this topic.)

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I don’t think it's about the choices of words; it's more about the quality of the dubbing actors.

This.

Quality dubbing, with good actors, and keeping the slang to a minimum.

I think having actors from both Spain and Latin America would be a good middle ground solution.

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