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LikeMike

Tim Schafer is not a god

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For me, it feels like he is trolling... Grim Fandango had great graphics and reasonable controls, Psychonauts and Brütal Legend is two of my favorite games.

Tim Schafer is one extremely creative and talented writer, and everthing he touches has tourned out great. Even with publishers!

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I think it's pretty clear that neither Psychonauts nor Brutal Legend are quite the games they would have been had Tim not been obliged to work with a publisher on them. (He talks a little about the effects publishers have in distorting the creative process on the first episode of the 2PP documentary.) So I think even Tim might admit that there's aspects about them that could have been better - but he didn't have a free hand to make them better.

Who knows, maybe all the meddling by publishers actually made the games better.

Just look at what happened when George Lucas got the freedom to create movies exactly the way he wanted: midichlorians, Jar Jar, romantic comedy etc.

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6. Try to recreate everything around you from the old days - forget surveys, forget what games are out right now, forget all that cool technical possibilites. Buy the kind of pizza you ate back then and try to make a game like you did back then.

I could not disagree more. Games aside, our experiences shape us as people. Trying to go back and live your life as you did a decade ago would be disingenuous. As for games, going back to a standard formula is something that I feel Tim Schafer and his team has never done; which I believe is why a good number of us support his work so much. I don't feel like this project is about reliving the glory days of adventure games, I feel like it's an opportunity to breathe new life into it. If I wanted a game exactly like I played back then I would just play a game that I played back then.

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Tim Schafer is actually not a god.

WYSIWYG

but since then he has made some nice games but nothing that will be remembered.

One word: Psychonauts.

It was made in 2005, and is a very very good game. Perfect combination of action and adventure. I can even say it is my most favorite 3D platformer game.

Even better, you can always see Psychonauts on every "top 10 underrated games" list.

And: there is a reason why adventure games are considered dead. We all love those games from back in the days and still play them today

main reason is that American gaming and American media loves to play FPS games. This made developers lazy and focusing only on making FPS games. Also, new generation of gamers also learned gaming with only FPS games. Developers need to take risks and develop other genres as well.

but just a look at the "Best Point and Click adventure game of the last 10 years" is depressing. There is nothing on that list that I would consider a masterpiece, actually nothing that I would want to play again.

however, Telltale makes games fun to play. Ah, and also Sherlock Holmes Awakened was a great game for a Holmes and Cthulhu fan like me.

So there is a real good chance that a lot of people will be disappointed with the end product.

if the game is not worse than Brütal Legend, I will not be disappointed.

Grim Fandango failed

you put Grim Fandango and fail in the same line, it is not possible, were you trying to divide by zero?

When you remember old adventure games you remember the stories, the characters and funny situations - those should be the most important things for your new project. Sure, puzzles are important for an adventure game, but they should always serve the story, not the other way around.

I am sure Double Fine Studios knows this, and also knows how to do a good story.

Try to make it feel like a AAA title.

I hope not. I don't want to see pointless gay sex just to "appeal masses"

Let`s make this special...

that's the point of Kickstarter project by the way.

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you put Grim Fandango and fail in the same line, it is not possible, were you trying to divide by zero?

James W. Anderson, my Fundamentals lecturer at Reading University, says you CAN divide by zero!

(No one likes him.)

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but since then he has made some nice games but nothing that will be remembered.

your post is dumb because it makes the assumption psychonauts ISNT one of the most popular and influential things hes ever made.

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This guy is raising some pretty valid points, I don't get why people keep saying he's trolling.

It is not a matter of the validity of his points, this thread is simply... inappropriate.

No reasonable person will claim that Tim Schafer is beyond criticism and without need of advice or direction or that he is incapable of making missteps. Nevertheless he is one of the most acclaimed adventure game designers in the short history of the medium with an admirable record (even Brutal Legend which I understand is his most controversial game yet, isn't really considered 'bad').

Therefore no reasonable person can claim that he is not a professional and that he doesn't know his job as well or better than anyone in his profession, and even though I'm sure suggestions are always welcome, there's a big difference between pointing out things that you'd like to see and outright teaching an experienced professional how to do his job.

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This guy is raising some pretty valid points, I don't get why people keep saying he's trolling.

It is not a matter of the validity of his points, this thread is simply... inappropriate.

No reasonable person will claim that Tim Schafer is beyond criticism and without need of advice or direction or that he is incapable of making missteps. Nevertheless he is one of the most acclaimed adventure game designers in the short history of the medium with an admirable record (even Brutal Legend which I understand is his most controversial game yet, isn't really considered 'bad').

Therefore no reasonable person can claim that he is not a professional and that he doesn't know his job as well or better than anyone in his profession, and even though I'm sure suggestions are always welcome, there's a big difference between pointing out things that you'd like to see and outright teaching an experienced professional how to do his job.

That was never my intention and I have a huge deal of respect for Tim Schafer. I was just overwhelmed by the cult like following and the certainty that Tim Schafer can't fail. There is a big probability that this game won't be the greatest adventure since Grim Fandango and I think some people should lower their expectations or their unconditional love might turn into burning rage...

This is a special and exciting project - we'll have to wait and see if there is a special game at the end of the road.

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This guy is raising some pretty valid points, I don't get why people keep saying he's trolling.

It is not a matter of the validity of his points, this thread is simply... inappropriate.

No reasonable person will claim that Tim Schafer is beyond criticism and without need of advice or direction or that he is incapable of making missteps. Nevertheless he is one of the most acclaimed adventure game designers in the short history of the medium with an admirable record (even Brutal Legend which I understand is his most controversial game yet, isn't really considered 'bad').

Therefore no reasonable person can claim that he is not a professional and that he doesn't know his job as well or better than anyone in his profession, and even though I'm sure suggestions are always welcome, there's a big difference between pointing out things that you'd like to see and outright teaching an experienced professional how to do his job.

This. Well said!

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Um yeah, I'd made a comparision about cursing in the church for the OP, but that would be shamefully understated...

Anyway, Some obvious points are valid (we want a good story and control scheme... who doesn't?), but for the love of God, the adventure game genre needs to progress. Well that is if we want it to, you know, not remain dead. I don't want another monkey island wannabe. There's plenty of them out there, and they all fall behind simply because they're trying too much to do the same thing. Sure take away what's good from those genres, and try to implement them naturally into the new game. But let this be it's own game. If I want to play another monkey island game, I'll just fire up MI2...

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First off, let me thank the original poster for reminding us all the we live in the real world. Chances are, regardless of how good the Double Fine Adventure will be, it will not live up to your memories of the old Lucas Arts classics. Mainly because they are memories, laced with nostalgia and rosy colored glasses and what not. Now on to specific points.

And: there is a reason why adventure games are considered dead. We all love those games from back in the days and still play them today - but just a look at the "Best Point and Click adventure game of the last 10 years" is depressing. There is nothing on that list that I would consider a masterpiece, actually nothing that I would want to play again.

The reason the adventure game genre 'died' was, in part, because the industry got bigger, and games got more expensive to make. The thing is though, the base of adventure game fans really didn't grow at the same rate. Simply put, publishers weren't seeing the demand necessary to justify the amount of money needed to fund a game with the production values they were accustomed to. As such they became very averse to anything they weren't sure would sell like gangbusters. Now, everyone hates Japanese games right now apparently, bit this is were the Japanese got something right. Some Japanese publishers like Atlus figured out how to build a games on a budget based on it's target audience; they sold niche games by figuring out how big the niche was and building the game accordingly. Lower your risk by lowering the budget. US Publishers still really haven't figured this out, but indie game companies have somewhat accidentally done this in their struggles for survival. This is why you are seeing a resurgence of adventure games. Games made made on small budgets (because that's all the money they can get) finding audiences bigger than the money they put in. Mind you for every indie success there are many more failures, but they are taking the risks the big publishers refuse to.

1. Don`t try too hard to revolutionize the genre. Grim Fandango failed with the masses not only because of it`s quirky setting, but because you tried to turn it into 3D - strange graphics and a horrible control scheme was the result. One of the reasons adventure games worked so well back then is because of the great handdrawn 2D graphics. Up the resolution but don`t change what`s been working in the classics.

The industry will never move forward if someone doesn't take risks, and to be honest, Double Fine is in the perfect situation to be able to take those risks. Mind you those that take risks often fail, but don't count these guys out yet.

2. When you remember old adventure games you remember the stories, the characters and funny situations - those should be the most important things for your new project. Sure, puzzles are important for an adventure game, but they should always serve the story, not the other way around.

I don't worry too much on this front. To be honest, I didn't like Brutal Legend. The game play wasn't that great and felt a bit unpolished. I kinda hated the rts aspect, but that's just me, I don't play a lot of those games. However the story, the characters, the voice acting, soundtrack was all superb. So in my mind, even when they fail they succeed. I have a lot of faith on the story front. That being said, don't ignore the game play either, that's really the foundation of the game.

3. Try to make it feel like a AAA title. When I play most adventures today, say Telltales games, they feel like they know, that they are only a niche project. Those old Lucas Arts games felt like they were the hottest products out there (because they were). Have enough self esteem to make it feel grand.

Polish does say a lot about a game. Little things can mean a lot when taken together. In udder words, at some point try to nail down what you are going to be able to accomplish given the amount of money you have, and then polish the frak out of it. Quality over quantity.

4. Go back and play the classics, say Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis - what made those games great, and why hasn`t any game since then been able to recapture this quality?

Refer to my previous comment about nostalgia and rose colored glazzies.

5. Take this game serious. I don`t mean that it can`t be funny - actually it should be funny since that`s your biggest strength. But don`t make it like a never ending joke. A serious game with a lot of funny moments, just like the classics.

This is really a matter of preference. I can see it going well either way, especially with these guys at the helm.

6. Try to recreate everything around you from the old days - forget surveys, forget what games are out right now, forget all that cool technical possibilites. Buy the kind of pizza you ate back then and try to make a game like you did back then.

Don't try to recreate everything. It's not going to happen. People change, technology changes, expectations change. Don't fight it, roll with it. Sure there is plenty to learn from past games, but nothing is perfect, and those games really would never exist in today's market if made today for many reasons. Learn from the past, don't repeat it.

All that being said, I have plenty of faith in Double Fine to make a great game. And in all honestly, I'm as interested to see how this all plays out as I am to play the actual game.

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Didn't expect this kind of thread in the backer's forum.

always expect "trolls". Further, expect a steep rise of them when game screenshots and content starts getting released.

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I think that we need all kinds of perspectives and LikeMike should be respected for his views.

I just don't agree to all the points, it's a bit pessimistic.

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Yup, I said it. Contrary to popular belief around here, Tim Schafer is actually not a god. He used to be a game designing god back in the days between 1990 and 1998 - but since then he has made some nice games but nothing that will be remembered. He might have been a product of his time, only excelling in the right environment - an environment that is long gone.

I wouldn't call this "trolling", really, but I do think some of your statements were needlessly abrasive. I feel it's counterproductive to try and get a rise out of people just before you launch your "List of reasons why...". If your intention is to have a reasoned debate/discussion, why try to alienate your audience right at the start? Still, you're entitled to project whatever image you'd like- maybe your aim was a "Me Vs. The Rest of You" feel.

The opening statement is odd to me because the gaming industry was drastically different in the 90s and, by and large, development teams had more creative freedom in those days- they weren't being held up to the light and measured against graphs 'n' charts to see if the path they were on was profitable enough... at least not to the same extent they have been in more recent years. So... are you saying a creative person became less creative when he had more restrictions set upon him? If so, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone whose creativity thrives in a closed box.

As for "an environment that is long gone", doesn't this project open that door again? Tim doesn't have to answer to a producer who is asking him to "make all the characters REALLY CUTE, ok? and sort've SEXY but not LOL :D" or "Put a walrus in! I think there should be a walrus at the end >:|" or "You CANNOT use the word "truffle" or any word that rhymes with 'truffle' or 'pants'... those words didn't test well at all". All Tim has to do is create. Maybe he'll look to the backers now and again for feedback, but he won't have any set-in-stone requirements or the threat of cancellation looming over him or his team.

I think perhaps you're looking for wholly unreasonable people where none (of very, very few at least) exist. I don't see the enthusiasm in the forums as "OMG, TIM CAN DO NO WRONG!! :D:D:D:D:D Build this man a golden effigy in the streets and cover it with pancakes, now!" (except in jest) but as "Wow! We actually get to see Tim and DF do their thing from the very beginning *and* he doesn't have to answer to someone who thinks profit is the End All/Be All! This is going to be *amazing*."

I could be wrong though. Maybe the majority of backers are building that golden effigy right now somewhere in Appalachia and there are plans to sacrifice virgin pancakes to heavily bearded men at it's base. Shock Horror!

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I think it's good to keep some sobering realistic expectations - but we should keep them private.

To produce an awesome game, an atmosphere of awesomeness should envelop these fora.

Motivation and productiveness go hand in hand with positive energy combined with constructive crit.

Negative energy can act like lingering poison in socio-economic interactions. Please remember that.

Almost all of Tim Schafer's games so far have been amazing so far. The only one that wasn't my cup of tea was Brütal Legend.

I love rock and heavy metal - so that wasn't the problem.. just the game play too much focus on hack-slash combat, not enough puzzle solving and traditional adventure stuff.

But MI 1 & 2, DOTT, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Psychonauts I consider all excellent games.

I didn't like the 3d-ness nor controls in Grim Fandango. Didn't like the minigames in Full Throttle..

But that's about it.

As for the theological question of His divinity, I have to say, as a good agnostic atheist: the burden of evidence is on those who claim a deity. :P

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First off, let me thank the original poster for reminding us all the we live in the real world. Chances are, regardless of how good the Double Fine Adventure will be, it will not live up to your memories of the old Lucas Arts classics. Mainly because they are memories, laced with nostalgia and rosy colored glasses and what not.
This is moot for most of us. You will probably find more installed and recently played LEC adventures per capita on these forums than anywhere else on the internet.

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'Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "YES"!'

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First off, let me thank the original poster for reminding us all the we live in the real world. Chances are, regardless of how good the Double Fine Adventure will be, it will not live up to your memories of the old Lucas Arts classics. Mainly because they are memories, laced with nostalgia and rosy colored glasses and what not.
This is moot for most of us. You will probably find more installed and recently played LEC adventures per capita on these forums than anywhere else on the internet.

I would say that even when you are replaying them, a certain amount of nostalgia bleeds through and colors your enjoyment of the game. That being said, you still have a point. However, expectations are going to be impossibly high with a certain portion of the community regardless.

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I was just overwhelmed by the cult like following and the certainty that Tim Schafer can't fail. There is a big probability that this game won't be the greatest adventure since Grim Fandango and I think some people should lower their expectations or their unconditional love might turn into burning rage...

Could be but let's not turn these into the Minecraft forums before their time (with half the people complaining about those that whine about the game and the other half complaining about those that complain about those that whine about the game).

I don't see as much 'cult' following here as I see in other sites. So just relax put on your robes and come join us around the altar and have some fun.

.

.

By the way why isn't this thread a poll? Half the threads here are... It should have been a poll.

Is Tim Schafer a god?

- yes

- yes

- of course

- Thou shalt not take the name of Tim Schafer in vain; for Tim Schafer will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

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Some may indeed not be as enthusiastic about the outcome of this when it is all said and done, but I imagine that most of will be---especially since we feel like we are a part of this Adventure, and not just end-of-the-line consumers.

Smiles

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It is actually possible to love and feel excitement for someone's creative work without losing touch with reality. While there is a point in there, it feels a tad patronizing to be 'reminded' to keep our nostalgia in check, let alone that we are in the real world! I also think it's much, much healthier to be positive and learn to get over disappointment quickly should it arise, than to withhold optimism for fear of being disappointed. Let the fans have their fun.

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Stacking was nice in concept but a little boring to play.

Frankly, I thought stacking as a game was great, but it suffered immensely because it had no voice acting (the title card thing grew old quickly and made me not want to read the dialogue). That should not be a problem with this upcoming game.

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All bow to Tim Schafer our new god of gods. On a serious note, I think people respect him and respect his work, but no one thinks of him as a god. Well at least some don't.

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It is actually possible to love and feel excitement for someone's creative work without losing touch with reality. While there is a point in there, it feels a tad patronizing to be 'reminded' to keep our nostalgia in check, let alone that we are in the real world! I also think it's much, much healthier to be positive and learn to get over disappointment quickly should it arise, than to withhold optimism for fear of being disappointed. Let the fans have their fun.

I don't think you really need to keep your nostalgia in check, especially with games. If you're having fun, who really cares why? I think the point is about having unhealthy expectations, in which something really good could be received as complete crap because it doesn't live up to some platonic ideal. I personally think it's not a bad idea to remind people of that.

In the end though, we're still all just arguing on the internet. :P

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I agree with the op points. Also, I have the feeling that this game is going to be good. Just a feeling.

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It just boggles my mind that you don't think Psychonauts is memorable.

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