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LikeMike

Tim Schafer is not a god

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That was never my intention and I have a huge deal of respect for Tim Schafer. I was just overwhelmed by the cult like following and the certainty that Tim Schafer can't fail. There is a big probability that this game won't be the greatest adventure since Grim Fandango and I think some people should lower their expectations or their unconditional love might turn into burning rage...

This is a special and exciting project - we'll have to wait and see if there is a special game at the end of the road.

There is a fine line between religion and unconditional love on one side and the emotional engagement you feel when you are small part of a story where a person you admire finally gets the freedom and recognition you think he deserves.

The whole story encourages me a lot to follow my own intuition, to be my own worst critic and to stand for what I do, no matter how far that gets me in society.

I feel insulted when you mistake that for mindless worshiping and think my 'unconditional love might turn into burning rage' if I don't lower my expectations.

I think most people here don't have any expectations in terms of success or breakthrough innovation, although the success is already bigger than anyone could reasonably have expected.

I think what has attracted the backers are two things: 1) wanting to express their appreciation for past works and 2) well-founded expectations about the new game's style: Schafer's track record is consistently telling us that DFA will probably be quite zany, somewhat dark, very coherent in an unexpected way, ironic, tasteful - but not particularly well-balanced or ingenious in terms of game mechanics. The controls could be less than brilliant.

This is what Double Fine is about and here you will find the people who think this leads to the games they like best.

What moves me is that Double Fine have found their niche market, and how.

Just look at Double Fine in the first part of the documentary. That bunch of insects coming from under their tile blinking their eyes in the bright sunlight, up until now thinking they were just lucky that they could survive doing what they like, like so many creative people, and now they get a big truckload of recognition. How cool is that?

And what I'm very curious about is how this story unfolds. What happens to a company like DF when they suddenly get all the freedom they could wish for?

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1. Don`t try too hard to revolutionize the genre. Grim Fandango failed with the masses not only because of it`s quirky setting, but because you tried to turn it into 3D - strange graphics and a horrible control scheme was the result. One of the reasons adventure games worked so well back then is because of the great handdrawn 2D graphics. Up the resolution but don`t change what`s been working in the classics.

While I agree with most of your points, I strongly disagree with this one. I don't believe that 2D is inherently superior to 3D at all and I feel that Grim Fandango was one of the best uses of 3D in an adventure game of its time as it has aged fairly gracefully due to it's fairly stylized art style. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Grim Fandango actually looks better with age than Curse (though, I would somewhat count this as being the very low resolution that Curse has on my rather high resolution screen). And, while this may bring down the lynch mobs upon my poor head, I really did like the control scheme in that game. Using a mouse in adventure games has always felt very clunky to me since there are a limited number of objects to interact with, and with the option of a mouse, the game quickly degrades into a pixel hunt instead of, you know, solving puzzles.

This isn't to say that I haven't enjoyed P&C adventures (because I have), but even in Curse, I didn't know why people were constantly referring to this "Verb Coin" thing for years until I realized that if you right clicked you would get this weird interface thing. I'd just been using keyboard commands from Grim Fandango and Escape for the entire time (P to pick up, U to use, T to talk/use mouth, etc...). And it worked great! Works far better than choosing verbs, actually, since imputing keyboard commands becomes almost instinctual after a time and you don't have to break the immersion to search for a verb.

But I'm pretty sure I'm in a very small minority here... so whatever. We'll probably get the 2D graphics and P&C controls if everyone clamors for them enough.

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I wasn't implying that everyone on here was just blindly following a god like Game Designer... I merely thought after reading a lot of overly enthusiastic posts, that SOME people could use a little perspective. I don't mean that in a condescending way and I don't want to take away any excitement for this project.

Actually I am extremely excited and can't wait to hear more about this game. I love to have 2 legendary (let's not forget about Ron Gilbert here) Game Designers be set free to make the game of their dreams. But the whole process might end up being more exciting than the finished product...

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I wasn't implying that everyone on here was just blindly following a god like Game Designer... I merely thought after reading a lot of overly enthusiastic posts, that SOME people could use a little perspective. I don't mean that in a condescending way and I don't want to take away any excitement for this project.

Actually I am extremely excited and can't wait to hear more about this game. I love to have 2 legendary (let's not forget about Ron Gilbert here) Game Designers be set free to make the game of their dreams. But the whole process might end up being more exciting than the finished product...

Yes, it seems you are excited, but from too much excitement I think you forgot to organize your thoughts.

Your original post is as if you are giving driving tips to Michael Schumacher. Of course, everyone is allowed to criticize and give ideas, and even if you had a real point there, it's lost in all those other irrelevant points.

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I'm not saying the classification "troll" is inaccurate, but we should be careful about throwing the word around to anyone who raises any questions or shares opinions.

At least try to make a reasoned argument for the term. Calling people a troll is easy.

I argued previously in this thread that - whether the purpose was to incite reaction (trolling) or not - let's assume for the sake of argument that it was not the intention of the OP. My argument does not require him to be deliberately trolling. The whole post seemed obsessed with reducing expectations, maybe it's some manner of post-hype-phobia (new word lol) or "fear of being hyped up and let down." The manner in which it was done however could easily be misunderstood as trolling. Essentially the OP was verbally diminishing the qualities and abilities of the most widely acclaimed game designer in the genre - down to that of a second rate washed out superstar. You don't need to call it trolling in order to say the OP was having an unfruitful catharsis. This catharsis would really only help to further diminish the self-confidence of someone who recently struggled with the potential of laying off people! I don't know the guy, nor am I pretending to be a psychologist.. but from my observations of his demeanor and character he seems more:

-Caring

-Funny

-Down to earth (i.e. no God complex)

-Self-confidence seems average

You should be very careful to throw such a bad juju bag into this magic funcastle that DoubleFine and us Backers are sharing together.

1.At best, the motive behind it is to .. what? Reduce our expectations so that.. we (and him) will lower our standards and will be less disappointed?

2.At worst, he is all alone in his opinion that so many of Tim's later games are "average" or below, and he still wants to share his opinion.. to see if he's truly alone, and to get it out of his system (catharsis).

The cynic I am is guessing it's #2 - which makes me wonder - why did he back this project at all in the first place? So he could come here and say this?

All in all... bad vibes breed bad atmosphere breed bad end result.

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His birth certificate says "Olympus," people. I don't get why you conspiracy theorists can't just let it go.

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He used to be a game designing god back in the days between 1990 and 1998 - but since then he has made some nice games but nothing that will be remembered. He might have been a product of his time, only excelling in the right environment - an environment that is long gone.

Could not disagree more. Commercial Success does not equal Artistic Success. I don't care how many copies CoD:MW11 sells, it pales in comparison to the innovation and love that goes into all of Double Fine's titles.

Titles like Psychonauts, Stacking, and others are already more memorable that many games released today.

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I dont get why people are so worried of how the game will be and what they do with it? Isent it a bit late for that? We already entrusted our money to them cuz we now itll be good!

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I hope not. I don't want to see pointless gay sex just to "appeal masses"

Uuuh, excuse me? Pretty much the only AAA titles I see out there which allow for homosexual romances on the part of PCs are Bioware's stuff and Skyrim (and in Skyrim there's no nookie scenes involved in marriage). In both cases, nothing actually happens unless you have your character ask for it to happen so if you don't like it you can play through the game and never see it.

I don't think the team should be mimicing AAA titles either (after all, the golden age of point and click adventures preceded the current trend for super-big-budget AAA games so making the one resemble the other seems like an absurd plan), but of all the features of AAA titles to pick out to complain about, singling out the efforts people go to in order to broaden gaming beyond being a straight white boy's club seems to be mildly inappropriate.

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Everyone is so focused on OP Likemike's comments about Tim Schaefer they missed his absolutely horrible and insulting Beatles analogy.

John Lennon's "Imagine" is one of the few post Beatles work of note or remembrance?

WING's "Band on the Run", Paul's "Flaming Pie", George Harrison's "All Things Must Pass" and his work as a Travelling Wilbury, Ringo Starr's work with Thomas the Tank Engine.

His lack of acknowledgement of that work makes me want to ignore all his statements even if they're okay and have created conversation.

(if a troll or not troll feeds conversation then they are no longer a troll...)

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Though I too am in the "I think that's an unfair presumption" category. Firstly let me say this:

If there is a god of wanton niftiness/niftosity, Tim Schafer be thy hallowed name.

With that said, I may be biased but I have to say I don't find the atmosphere 'cult like' as much as 'highly enthusiastic'. In fact I'm going to say something that may not be entirely agreed with, but it is honest and from the heart. If this game was a complete flop, if history looks back on this with a damning headline akin to: "Tim Schafer was trusted by the fans to give them what they wanted, and with a huge windfall of funding at his back, he could not deliver on high expectations. The work was remembered for what it might have been instead of what it was. It disappointed all but the most die hard fans, and left publishers quietly yet completely vindicated."

If that scenario above were to come true, I would still be glad to have been here and thrown my hat in the ring. I would not take back a single enthusiastic comment nor question my excitement for the game. Though that may seem contradictory, to me there is what this game is becoming and will eventually become, which we cannot truly know about in the now. Then, there is also the movement of active consumerism that Tim Schafer's bold step has helped to spur. We are already seeing what it's done via Wasteland 2, Shadowrun, and other kickstarters.

I'm referring to the money-meets-mouth simplicity of letting consumers, we the backers, speak up for what we want if we don't feel we are getting it from publishers. It has sparked movement, some would even say opened the door, for other developers to do the same. In this way it may be a human revolution, not one that will wash away publishers and leave artistic purity to shine high on the hill and rain down upon us. No, I refer to the simple and inestimable power of being able to speak directly to the people who care about what you create.

We are become an artistic appeals committee. A board of second chances for talented creators that have something to give, but were denied the opportunity to bring their vision to life. If you are cautioning me on the dangers of becoming too excited about the game, I understand. Now, let me invite you to be wholeheartedly excited about what it means that this has begun in such an auspicious manner.

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And: there is a reason why adventure games are considered dead. We all love those games from back in the days and still play them today - but just a look at the "Best Point and Click adventure game of the last 10 years" is depressing. There is nothing on that list that I would consider a masterpiece, actually nothing that I would want to play again.

Adventure games are far from dead. For the last four, five years I have played a couple of good and some outstanding adventures - some of them better than the best that Lucas Arts ever made. I think, we tend to glorify the older days: the only thing we really remember are those few famous names (Monkey Island, Indiana Jones, DOTT, the Dig...), and even those had gaps of multiple years between them. Today, we have at least three or four big adventure studios (Telltale, Daedalic, Deck13, Animation Arts) that produce at least one significant title every year, and countless little studios that bring adventures here and there.

It was never so cheap to develop an adventure, and the market was never so competitive.

I really hope that Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert won't try to just replicate the old glory, because honestly: the genre has evolved a LOT, although in very subtle ways.

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His birth certificate says "Olympus," people. I don't get why you conspiracy theorists can't just let it go.

Interesting. However, based on Tim's well-publicized musical tastes, especially as reflected in Brütal Legend, I would have to say "Asgard" is a more likely point of origin. After all, the Norse gods were definitely more "metal."

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I may be biased but I have to say I don't find the atmosphere 'cult like' as much as 'highly enthusiastic'. In fact I'm going to say something that may not be entirely agreed with, but it is honest and from the heart. If this game was a complete flop, if history looks back on this with a damning headline akin to: "Tim Schafer was trusted by the fans to give them what they wanted, and with a huge windfall of funding at his back, he could not deliver on high expectations. The work was remembered for what it might have been instead of what it was. It disappointed all but the most die hard fans, and left publishers quietly yet completely vindicated."

If that scenario above were to come true, I would still be glad to have been here and thrown my hat in the ring. I would not take back a single enthusiastic comment nor question my excitement for the game. Though that may seem contradictory, to me there is what this game is becoming and will eventually become, which we cannot truly know about in the now. Then, there is also the movement of active consumerism that Tim Schafer's bold step has helped to spur. We are already seeing what it's done via Wasteland 2, Shadowrun, and other kickstarters.

I entirely agree with this poster. I owe Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert a lot, specifically my love of video games since childhood, and I find the experience of helping them make a game, and watching the process, so exciting and fun that even if the game ultimately crashes and burns, I'll be glad to be along for the ride.

Also, I agree with everyone calling the original poster a troll. Their self-important tone and their presumption that they alone are the arbiter of taste is ridiculous (someone here may think they're a god, but it's not Tim Schafer!)—and personally, as a backer, I hope that in making this game Doublefine doesn't bother taking advice from anyone who doesn't love The Excellent Game Psychonauts. LikeMike, I understand your desire for people to keep their expectations practical, but if you don't want to be called a troll, try to say so without insinuating that Tim Schafer and Doublefine are past their prime and that those of us who love their post-1998 games are, what, dumb for loving them? Obviously a lot of people here love the work Doublefine has been doing, and I for one could take your advice a bit more seriously (without getting all riled up and writing you off as a troll) if you were respectful of that.

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With that said, I may be biased but I have to say I don't find the atmosphere 'cult like' as much as 'highly enthusiastic'. In fact I'm going to say something that may not be entirely agreed with, but it is honest and from the heart. If this game was a complete flop, if history looks back on this with a damning headline akin to: "Tim Schafer was trusted by the fans to give them what they wanted, and with a huge windfall of funding at his back, he could not deliver on high expectations. The work was remembered for what it might have been instead of what it was. It disappointed all but the most die hard fans, and left publishers quietly yet completely vindicated."

If that scenario above were to come true, I would still be glad to have been here and thrown my hat in the ring. I would not take back a single enthusiastic comment nor question my excitement for the game.

This attitude I think is what most backers should be taking. The truth is this group of backers are a very diverse bunch in terms of taste, in spite of some Double Fine love being common to most (though not all) of us. I've seen backers who commented they don't like adventure games or point and clicks but still backed for other reasons. I've seen people both praise and damn almost every game Tim, Ron, or Double Fine have had a hand in. At the end of this process, some backers, maybe even a significant chunk of backers are going to find what has been produced isn't the best game they've ever seen, and doesn't really fit their taste. And that should be ok. In a crowd of 90,000 you can't expect to please everyone 100%. But I think most backers actually realise this and ARE ok with it. I know if I'm in that group that doesn't love it with the fire of a 1000 suns, like Ponderer, I won't regret being a part of the DFA. And it certainly won't stop me supporting Double Fine (and Tim, and Ron) in the future.

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With that said, I may be biased but I have to say I don't find the atmosphere 'cult like' as much as 'highly enthusiastic'. In fact I'm going to say something that may not be entirely agreed with, but it is honest and from the heart. If this game was a complete flop, if history looks back on this with a damning headline akin to: "Tim Schafer was trusted by the fans to give them what they wanted, and with a huge windfall of funding at his back, he could not deliver on high expectations. The work was remembered for what it might have been instead of what it was. It disappointed all but the most die hard fans, and left publishers quietly yet completely vindicated."

If that scenario above were to come true, I would still be glad to have been here and thrown my hat in the ring. I would not take back a single enthusiastic comment nor question my excitement for the game.

This attitude I think is what most backers should be taking. The truth is this group of backers are a very diverse bunch in terms of taste, in spite of some Double Fine love being common to most (though not all) of us. I've seen backers who commented they don't like adventure games or point and clicks but still backed for other reasons. I've seen people both praise and damn almost every game Tim, Ron, or Double Fine have had a hand in. At the end of this process, some backers, maybe even a significant chunk of backers are going to find what has been produced isn't the best game they've ever seen, and doesn't really fit their taste. And that should be ok. In a crowd of 90,000 you can't expect to please everyone 100%. But I think most backers actually realise this and ARE ok with it. I know if I'm in that group that doesn't love it with the fire of a 1000 suns, like Ponderer, I won't regret being a part of the DFA. And it certainly won't stop me supporting Double Fine (and Tim, and Ron) in the future.

Well said, you just summed up all my thoughts about this whole process. I donated primarily to support a cause gamers could unite behind (although it did help that I enjoyed DF's many games hehe).

On a personal note, I'm going to play through the game and appreciate it to the very best of my ability! Good thing I'm a fan of most genres, I haven't played an adventure game for an extremely long time but I'm totally ready to chart new territory.

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The Beatles haven`t been able to maintain that high level after they split - save for a couple of great songs like Imagine.

Imagine is not a Beatles song. It's a John Lennon song.

But as to your post, I agree. Then again.. Mozart wasn't a god either, and I'm not sure anyone (except a total egomaniac) would feel comfortable being called a god. Mistakes and missteps are part of life -- it would be boring if they weren't. :)

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I wasn't implying that everyone on here was just blindly following a god like Game Designer... I merely thought after reading a lot of overly enthusiastic posts, that SOME people could use a little perspective. I don't mean that in a condescending way and I don't want to take away any excitement for this project.

Actually I am extremely excited and can't wait to hear more about this game. I love to have 2 legendary (let's not forget about Ron Gilbert here) Game Designers be set free to make the game of their dreams. But the whole process might end up being more exciting than the finished product...

How can you claim to not mean that in a condescending way? You made an entire thread devoted to lecturing the population of a forum on how they should think and feel about something. Then you devoted the rest of that thread to a lecture to the game developers. You also decided that people could use some perspective because their perspective differed from yours, and thereby you should be the one to provide the missing perspective. Plus you're still talking like that. You say you don't want to take away any excitement for this project which implies that you think you have the power to. I don't mind anyone criticizing Tim, Double Fine, or the members of this forum, but there is no conceivable way you can claim you're not condescending. You speak as if you're above everyone. It doesn't matter if you actually think you're above everyone. You do speak like that. Furthermore, do you know the difference between asserting a point and expressing it? When you assert something you're saying it holds complete accuracy beyond yourself. When you express something you say its ultimate accuracy is questionable. It's a result of the way statements are made, and everything in your original post was asserted.

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Well, I am sorry if it came across this way. I do not think I am in any way superior or that my opinions are more important than any one elses. I actually tried to say in an exaggerated and mildly funny way: woah, some guys should take a step back. People are acting like this is a sure hit, when there is a Good possibility that some people will go away really disappointed. I didn't mean any bad blood. English is not my native language so I might have missed the right tone. Sorry to anyone I might have agitated.

Oh and about the Beatles thing. I know that imagine was a Lennon Song - that actually was my point. After their split they individually couldn't keep on producing so high quality songs, except for a couple of masterpieces like Imagine (or Maybe I'm Amazed).

With all that said, let's forget any Bad vibes and just be excited for this Project. I know I am.

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Well, I am sorry if it came across this way. I do not think I am in any way superior or that my opinions are more important than any one elses. I actually tried to say in an exaggerated and mildly funny way: woah, some guys should take a step back. People are acting like this is a sure hit, when there is a Good possibility that some people will go away really disappointed. I didn't mean any bad blood. English is not my native language so I might have missed the right tone. Sorry to anyone I might have agitated.

Oh and about the Beatles thing. I know that imagine was a Lennon Song - that actually was my point. After their split they individually couldn't keep on producing so high quality songs, except for a couple of masterpieces like Imagine (or Maybe I'm Amazed).

With all that said, let's forget any Bad vibes and just be excited for this Project. I know I am.

Haha you might want to forego the ranting joke threads if English isn't your native language. :P Anyway no bad blood, and I don't completely disagree with you. I'm actually mostly here for the game design process. This whole thing (the forums, documentary, etc) is the end goal for me. The finished game is just a perk that gets thrown in when it's over. I know some people donated entirely only for the game (or primarily for it), but I'm not one of them. I also don't expect the game to be the most mind-blowing phenomenal thing ever to grace the face of the earth. I don't think most other people actually do either. There's just a lot of excitement right now, and I think most people will be happy to play the game no matter what it is. There will always be people in any project who's expectations are higher than can be met, but that's to be expected. You can't do anything about it nor should you feel the need to. It's not like they're going to go trash the double fine studio when the game doesn't live up. Sometimes you just have to allow people their perspectives even if you can see a potential flaw that you very well may be right about.

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Tim Schafer is very much a god. The first Orthodox Church of Tim was established in 2002. This is the history of your tribe, you guys. Know your rich heritage.

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