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I am all for opening the Forums and Updates for Pre-Orders, which will provide more Money for the game, which all will benefit from. I can See a reason why anyone could be against this as long as those people also provide funding for the game. More adventure fans here is a good thing.

Let's be nice to the Late-comers!;)

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They should include all the $15 preorder people in the credits too... Why should that be exclusive to the kickstarter $100 tier? Kickstarter's over man. It's a brave new world now!

In fact, I don't even think Double Fine should sell the game, after it's done... I mean - that's lame... Why should the game be exclusive to the people who bought it? It belongs to everyone! Damn selfish elitists, with their money... We'll show them!

Everybody look how noble I am! Aren't I just the greatest?

Not helping. Let me say that it's really hard to take you serious like that!!!

If we wanna discuss this we need to find a way without making fun of each others opinions.

This is not personal. No final decision has been made. And even if for example someone seems to be mean to you, don't let it infect you !!

You're better than this

Sorry. I just came on here again after taking a couple of days off... and got instantly ticked off again...

Why even have exclusive forums at all? They should just put the videos up on the regular forums and let everybody join in the fun... What makes preorder/kickstarter people so special...? Oh, that's right... they won't do that - because they are planning to sell those later...

I'm rooting for DF. I want them to make lots of money - and produce a great game... but IMHO - they have committed an act of dishonestly with this whole fiasco... and that doesn't change just because some people think it's OK.

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I am all for opening the Forums and Updates for Pre-Orders, which will provide more Money for the game, which all will benefit from. I can See a reason why anyone could be against this as long as those people also provide funding for the game. More adventure fans here is a good thing.

Let's be nice to the Late-comers!;)

Well, the joke would be on you then, my friend... because the budget for the game has already been set.

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Is it okay if I point out that this discussion is pointless until someone from DF answers this question.

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meisjoe, some people here suggested new backers pay more to join (or get less for their money), are you ok with that?

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Is it okay if I point out that this discussion is pointless until someone from DF answers this question.

I feel like this is pretty clear, there are multiple benefits:

1. More money for the studio, obvious benefits

2. More people on the forum to provide feedback and ideas.

3. More people in the beta to help find bugs and what not.

Personally, I have hated the word 'exclusive' for the longest time in terms of video games, and I never really listened to it whenever somebody says it. This was not a draw for me at all in funding this game, I just wanted to have the game made.

I try to understand why people are upset, but I really cannot.

Naturally DF would put up pre-orders for the game, and they should give some sort of incentive to do it. What better incentives than beta and a place to discuss this? Would you prefer them offer incentives that backers would be unable to get without pre-ordering as well?

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Until I read so many of the negative responses (from those for and against this), I thought private access to the forums was going to be pretty special.

This thread has been a little like watching a mob burn down a building so that no one can sleep in their bedroom.

It hasn't just been the strange rabid need for exclusivity that bothers me either. It's also the snark and disrespect shown by an ulterior mob mentality by some frenzied backers who disagree with any dissent.

Personally, I'm all for opening the doors. I don't care if every pre-order dollar goes to propping up Double Fine two years from now. I love this company, I love what they do.

Still, I don't have a problem with well reasoned dissent from people who DO feel slighted. That's kind of what discussion is for. Not for shouting down ideas that you don't like.

At this point, let's be honest: Access to the forums might be punishment enough for not signing up early.

Emphasis mine- totally agree. Aura mentioned something along these lines as well.

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meisjoe, some people here suggested new backers pay more to join (or get less for their money), are you ok with that?

Heya buddy. I seriously don't even have a problem letting new people in... I just got mad at people on here, acting like the kickstarter backers who thought they were getting something special - by being a kickstarter backer - were somehow petty and ignoble. Personally, I think the best compromise is to allow another two weeks or a month of preorders - with access to the forums and videos... and then lock it down! Just my opinion.

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Yes, I also think that now we really need an official statement!

By the way @BETA Testing:

Basically we're probably already more Beta-Testers than DoubleFine can handle and process. I must say I totally trust that our input would be sufficient. However if we should allow more Beta-Testers in, then it could be important to have a good concept for how this process is supposed to work without important input getting ignored (but I guess we'll need that anyways - so a few 100 more or less isn't going to make it a lot more difficult than it already is). I don't need that right away, but it would be good to keep that in mind and find a good (well prepared) solution. Otherwise... CHAOS alert ;)

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Is it okay if I point out that this discussion is pointless until someone from DF answers this question.

I feel like this is pretty clear, there are multiple benefits: [...]

No, what you write is just speculation, based on assumptions that may prove to be inaccurate.

1. More money for the studio, obvious benefits

The game's budget is $2,232,465, and DF has already allocated this money for expenditures. You're assuming that DF is looking for more money to make the game. That assumption may be inaccurate.

2. More people on the forum to provide feedback and ideas.

Given the amount of duplicate threads, and the high number of new threads/posts being added on a daily basis, I think it's already a day job to follow everything. You're assuming that DF is looking for more feedback and ideas than they currently receive. That assumption may be inaccurate.

3. More people in the beta to help find bugs and what not.

If only 1% of the 87,142 backers playtest the beta, DF has over 800 beta testers. That's a lot. You're assuming that DF would like more beta testers. That assumption may be inaccurate.

Either way, it's pointless to discuss these things, so long as DF isn't giving us more information.

Once we know the actual benefits, then we can start weighing the advantages against the disadvantages.

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Lots of questions, maybe DF will answer them when this thread takes all their storage space.

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Is it okay if I point out that this discussion is pointless until someone from DF answers this question.

I feel like this is pretty clear, there are multiple benefits: [...]

No, what you write is just speculation, based on assumptions that may prove to be inaccurate.

1. More money for the studio, obvious benefits

The game's budget is $2,232,465, and DF has already allocated this money for expenditures. You're assuming that DF is looking for more money to make the game. That assumption may be inaccurate.

2. More people on the forum to provide feedback and ideas.

Given the amount of duplicate threads, and the high number of new threads/posts being added on a daily basis, I think it's already a day job to follow everything. You're assuming that DF is looking for more feedback and ideas than they currently receive. That assumption may be inaccurate.

3. More people in the beta to help find bugs and what not.

If only 1% of the 87,142 backers playtest the beta, DF has over 800 beta testers. That's a lot. You're assuming that DF would like more beta testers. That assumption may be inaccurate.

Either way, it's pointless to discuss these things, so long as DF isn't giving us more information.

Once we know the actual benefits, then we can start weighing the advantages against the disadvantages.

Nope, more money is good, I said nothing about whether or not it goes into the DFA budget, just to the studio (which it does).

Its silly to think that DF already has more than they can handle it terms of forum contributers and beta testers. There are plenty of tools available to moderators to streamline player feedback in beta testing as well as trending what topics are important to players. You may need to hear it straight from the horses mouth, but to me it is pretty clear.

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Heya buddy. I seriously don't even have a problem letting new people in... I just got mad at people on here, acting like the kickstarter backers who thought they were getting something special - by being a kickstarter backer - were somehow petty and ignoble. Personally, I think the best compromise is to allow another two weeks or a month of preorders - with access to the forums and videos... and then lock it down! Just my opinion.

And what if the pre-orders are already profit? What if they go to help the studio? I know you mentioned that the budget has already been allocated, but these things are fluid as well. With money comes options, and if they had another large groundswell before they were out of concept, allocating it to the budget is certainly within reason. More than that, even upgrades in the studio can work to help the game.

An upgraded computer may not help directly enhance the game, but it could cause one developer to have a more immediate and responsive experience so he can work as fast as he can, which would result in greater efficiency. A snazzy new chair may seem like a waste, but if the old one was uncomfortable and hurt to sit in after long periods of time, the developer in it couldn't concentrate on his work for as long as he could otherwise. I get what you're feeling. If I understand correctly, you felt like you opened an internet chocolate bar with a golden ticket, and after you cashed it in, they said 'okay, it's over. now the doors are open', and everyone marched in behind you, taking away anything unique and magical about it.

But let me ask you...what if you're thinking of them wrong, what if they are not eccentric, ultra-rich gaming chocolatiers. What if instead they were development paupers with little tales that they tried to peddle to the story masters of the realm, and the story masters closed the doors on them, again and again, saying 'we're sorry but it doesn't quite follow the right rules'. What if then they decided to tell their story in the street, asking people to pay if they liked what they heard, and people did pay with the promise to hear more.

If I were those paupers, I would not ever, ever want to close the doors on new people that want to come in, simply because they didn't quite follow the right rules. That's how I feel about this. They never expected boundless success, they were fearful to ask for a pittance, a morsel in development terms, and they ended off with a feast, and now they want to welcome others in.

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And what if the pre-orders are already profit? What if they go to help the studio? I know you mentioned that the budget has already been allocated, but these things are fluid as well. With money comes options, and if they had another large groundswell before they were out of concept, allocating it to the budget is certainly within reason. More than that, even upgrades in the studio can work to help the game.

I don't have a problem with the studio making profit off the preorders. My only contention is that it is entirely disingenuous to make a promise of exclusivity on kickstarter - only to make the same promise on preorders... over a month later. That's running the idea of a kickstarter "reward" through the proverbial wringer. As I said, I think a fair compromise would be to open up the forums to preorders for a limited time (like a couple of weeks.) That's just my opinion....

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Alright, but keep in mind unless someone knows more than I, I've only seen that promised mentioned once, in article text not in the rewards. And even then, a thinking buyer would know it could not be true, because even though Double Fine did not have paypal set up during the drive like others did, they DID have off kickstarter premium rewards that still gave the rewards of all other tiers. If one of those statements must be mistaken, it only makes sense that the mistake be the word 'kickstarter', rather than anyone backing the project not directly through kickstarter, including people who have pledged over 10,000 dollars, shouldn't get forum access.

If that is the issue, a sense of betrayal, I invite you to consider this. The statement I have been able to find is this:

"2 Player Productions will be documenting the creative process and releasing monthly video updates exclusively to the Kickstarter backers."

So if you do feel betrayed, consider that forum access was not said to be kickstarter exclusive from anything I'd read. Still, that feeling you've been scummed out of a deal is harsh, I certainly don't take it lightly. But, well it's like I said, I don't think they thought it would be anything but a fireside chat with a handful of fans, and maybe if things got really special they may even get twice what they asked, and then what!

What I'm trying to say is, rather than a bait and switch, the way I see it is they weren't considering the possibility of the project generating enough heat that people would want to join on the bandwagon. For me, a betrayal must be injurious for it to be meaningful. Even taking you at your understanding of events to the letter, personally I'm not hurt by them wanting to invite more people into the playground. And that, too, is merely my own opinion.

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Good points, Ponderer.

I think the way this feels injurious to me is that Double Fine haven't really done anything previously that felt like this -- whether it's justified or not, some people will view this "pre-order with benefits" as some sort of betrayal. I happen to think this is a case of them changing their plans on this subject -- rather than them constructing such a terrible sentence on their Kickstarter that the forums could debate it's exact meaning forever. It's certainly implied elsewhere that it was a time-limited option.

It's pretty clear those benefits were meant for backers, and there was no indication or reason to expect at the time that the term "backer" would be applied to anyone other those folks on Kickstarter. And please don't paste a definition of the word "backer" at me, the context of who a backer is was crystal clear up until this pre-order thing.

I and others have suggested numerous good compromises, any number of which I think work fine for calming all tensions. But if DF doesn't at least address any of these questions, I couldn't really take them at their word on any future Kickstarter -- and that's somewhat heartbreaking to say.

I don't even care who gets what, or the exclusivity of the forums -- but Kickstarter pledges have to be written in stone. period. And if your company writes a reward level description badly, or vaguely, you've got to do more than give us a "heads up."

So, my vote is for a limited-time limit on letting new people in.

If they don't do something about this, I'll feel a bit hurt and let down, and I think it absolutely could rightly be called a bait-and-switch, money-grab, or any number of other corporate-esque behaviors.

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And please don't paste a definition of the word "backer" at me, the context of who a backer is was crystal clear up until this pre-order thing.

Are you sure about that? Wasteland 2 and Shadowrun Returns are taking paypal backers right now and have been since before this announcement, those donations are not through kickstarter. Why do you feel the definition was so clear? Why does the definition need to be so clear? That said, there was a countdown party, so I will give you that 'time limited' had meaning, and I think it served its purpose, it gave them a solid eye for the kind of budget they were looking at.

Though I never defined exclusive as anything but those who backed the game, and saying more will back the game seems to make sense considering not everyone might have heard about this right away... I do get the idea that the forum access for latecomers could make it feel as if these are simply pre-order forums that studios sometimes pull up. In other words, nothing really new.

I don't even care who gets what, or the exclusivity of the forums -- but Kickstarter pledges have to be written in stone. period. And if your company writes a reward level description badly, or vaguely, you've got to do more than give us a "heads up."

I am very eager to consider the careful considerations about statements made in the body text through the various updates. I don't use 'careful considerations' derisively, I understand and respect that it is done to back a very real feeling you have, even though it can be hard to define so you end up getting into the weeds to make your case. Logic ain't always pretty, but it gets the job done. However, and I just went back to re-read, it seems that NOTHING about Kickstarter pledges are not being modified. Here is the 15 dollar pledge:

"The finished game in all of its awesome glory DRM free on PC, Mac, and Linux, or via Steam for PC and Mac, exclusive access to the Beta on Steam, access to the video series, and access the private discussion community."

None of that was changed. If the question has turned to 'private', I think 'not open to everyone' is a fair description, that is even more broad than 'backer'. It's one thing to say 'someone, during an update, said kickstarter referring to the documentary and people shouldn't pretend they didn't'. Yes they did, that's very true and it's a point. But that is NOT your pledge to my understanding, your pledge is better defined as the text that comes with your reward level. Unless there's something in one of the other pledge texts you're referring to, I don't see how this is a breach of that.

Edit-By the way I don't disagree with your compromise ideas, let it be said! I am just making the case that the Double Fine team aren't dishonoring a deal.

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Great idea! Go for it - everyone benefits!

Any possibility of 2PP uploading 1080 video so we can watch it in fullscreen? Happy for it not to be downloadable, at least can we watch it in 1080?

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It's good there is an agreement on this thread with regards to the time limit, I think DF agrees with this since it sounds reasonable that this was their intention in the first place, but after a thread this long maybe I don't even remember the question.

Interestingly, DF is nowhere to be found. Now, where's that conch?

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Just wanted to add my voice to the camp that has no problem with this.

If you consider how few people are actually posting in these forums versus how many backers there were on Kickstarter it seems reasonable to conclude that for the vast majority of backers the idea of a private forum wasn't even particularly interesting in the first place.

Also, I think that there may be an obvious solution to this problem that people are overlooking. Simply collect the names of the people who are bothered and make for them alone a super exclusive forum.

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Of course people should be allowed to support the project even after the Kickstarter campaign has ended .. The more money you get for making the game, the better game we'll get, so I see this as a purely positive thing.

Though to be fair to the Kickstarter backers, most of the rewards from Kickstarter should be kept exclusive, and no unique rewards should be given for these pre-orders.

I would say it's OK for them to buy their way up to the $30 tier, so $15 tier game + beta + video series + this forum, and $30 tier's HD download of documentary with extras, digital game soundtrack, digital documentary soundtrack. Basically the $30 tier is like a typical "Digital Deluxe Edition" you find on Steam.

In my opinion it would also be fine if you'd keep this method open all the way until the final release date.

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One thing came to mind: I'd now even go as far as to say that DF can not exclude the documentary from any preorders. Those two things, the game and the doc, are the major parts of the whole DF-Adventure. They said before, that they go hand in hand.

And how would you handle the profits? If there was a just-game-preorder, 2PP wouldn't probably get a share - would that be fair? They were a big part of the KS-campaign, of its appeal, the campaign videos and the promise of the doc - without them it wouldn't have reached 3mil, the whole thing wouldn't be as prominent. And I guess these forums are the means of delivery for the doc right now (in regards to new non-KS-bakcers), access to them kind of have to be in the deal.

That said, yeah, DF send mixed messages, the should communicate, acknowledge that.

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And how would you handle the profits? If there was a just-game-preorder, 2PP wouldn't probably get a share - would that be fair? They were a big part of the KS-campaign, of its appeal, the campaign videos and the promise of the doc - without them it wouldn't have reached 3mil, the whole thing wouldn't be as prominent. And I guess these forums are the means of delivery for the doc right now (in regards to new non-KS-bakcers), access to them kind of have to be in the deal.

From my understanding what's fair for 2PP isn't ours to decide. That's to decide between 2PP and DF. But right now it's not relevant for our discussion and it wouldn't do any good to speculate. Besides: We have seen more than just once where speculation leads our discussion. Also I'm pretty sure 2PP would make up their mind and discuss it with DF right away (also considering that probably not much will stay unnoticed for them when being around DF all the time).

In this very thread here I guess it can only be about finding out where our community (or several members of our community) draw the line. And yes, we have to keep in mind that we're only a small sample compared to all the other backers that are not on this board - but this sample seems good to have a great idea of the problems that others might (and most definitely will) also have with it and try to understand different positions to learn how to approach them. For now I think it's great that we managed to get this discussion back to a normal level. And I have the feeling that we have reached a point where in order to move forward, we simply need an official statement, addressing our issues and questions. A statement that is dealing with the implications of this discussion. I guess it will take a bit for DF to process all problems here and give us the answers we need. So let's be patient :)

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Eh... I can see both sides of it honestly.

On one hand I'd like these forums to be visible to everyone, and the videos produced preferably too since I don't really like the "Exclusivity" thing. It would also help spread the word of the game, it would be free publicity and would keep it being "talked about" and there being Newsposts and stuff on Gaming sites for months to come right up until release and would definitely also increase the sales and success of the project.

On the other hand, Double Fine kind of did set the parameters of what they wanted to do with this and likely knew what they were doing, hell this entire section is called "Backers-Only Area". They didn't have to provide "special forums", videos or anything else to the people backing the project to make them feel "special", but they did arguably because it would increase the chances of their Kickstarter succeeding and would get more people in because of the Urgency. There are other Kickstarters out there that don't really offer much else than a copy of the game and maybe an Update and people are largely fine with that too.

I don't think it's as much of a "I don't want anyone else to have what I have" but a "Why are you going back on your word?" kind of thing.

I'd be all for Pre-Ordering to get more money, also making these forums visible to browse for everyone etc., but offering people the same kind of rewards promised to "Backers Only" and even so soon is a bit ehh... xD

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I think that pre-order-thing is what many many people without a credit card wished for (as said: not very common at least in germany and I think in europe as well and who trusts some weird Frau-Antje-hints about some never-heard-of-"ucash"...?)

So I'm glad DF gives those people who would have loved to participate but simply couldn't the chance to do so now. *thumbsup*

As said before I'm totally fine if people with preorders are getting everything we have here but I may understand some people who have a bad feeling about that.

But to those people: Wouldn't you be delighted if you heard about the kickstarter thing and would have loved to give everything you have to DF to be part of it and simply couldn't because there was no way to get to a creditcard and now DF gives you a chance to participate at least at the lowest level?

(and just kidding about "Frau Antje", of course. Like DF I love the netherlands. Well, love is a bit strong, but, well, I don't dislike them either ;-) and I am not sure if that ukash-thing would have been possible in every country. At least I have never ever heard about that ever before in germany...)

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But I want to feel special! Could you at least give me a special digital button? Perhaps a red one?.

Seriously, I like the idea of giving people who haven't made it to the Kickstarter a chance to support the project. Obviously some backers will be unhappy if these people got the same rewards for the same amount of money. Therefore I think that's not a good idea to just give everything the $15 reward had. I think many people will be happy enough to get in even if they pay more and / or get less, and more backers will be okay with that.

If you want to be evil, on the other hand, offer a pre-order with exclusive content not available to the Kickstarter backers. Then only those who backed the Kickstarted and pre-ordered would get everything.

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Well, whatever happens regarding these forums, I hope that new pre-orderers are at least given access to the documentary. My position on this debate boils down to being, more or less, against anything which divides the community, and all for more opportunities for people to become involved and share their enthusiasm for the project. I can understand the points made about the promise of 'Kickstarter backer exclusivity' though, even if I don't think letting more people in will impact on our experience here in any negative way.

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I don't know what's the point being so mad about. More money coming in, more resources for the game.

But as I said, let it be a pre-order feature with a higher price than the $15 backer. $19.99 is fine.

If you charge the same price, people will start thinking rushing to back isn't necessary since they know they can join whenever they want. It will hurt other projects in the long run and clearly piss off a lot of backers who backed the $15.

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Well, whatever happens regarding these forums, I hope that new pre-orderers are at least given access to the documentary. My position on this debate boils down to being, more or less, against anything which divides the community, and all for more opportunities for people to become involved and share their enthusiasm for the project. I can understand the points made about the promise of 'Kickstarter backer exclusivity' though, even if I don't think letting more people in will impact on our experience here in any negative way.

DF needs to address where the pre-order money is going. If it's just for general money for the studio, the $15 Kickstarter reward tier really meant nothing and the promise of exclusivity is being broken. I'm with you, assuming DF puts all of the money from the pre-order into DFA. It's more the principle of the thing and being able to trust DF when they make some other future promise that may impact our wallets.

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Personally as long as physical rewards remain exclusive I don’t care if new people get forum access or beta access after the fact. I can somehow understand why some people would mind, in the sense that a certain impression of exclusivity was given, and now part of that exclusivity is taken away. But the other set of people that have the need to feel like special butterflies for having access to a forum need to get over themselves and maybe take a better look at their lives.

As far as where the money will go? There’s seems to be this crazy impression that video game design budgets are set to a certain amount and exactly that amount will be spend on making the game, down to the last cent. Is not that simple, sometimes things pop up during development that take extra time or need to be redone and the initial budget might get inflated, usually a Publisher (since they already invested in the project) makes up for that difference, and sometimes that difference may be minimal compared to the initial budget. If DF can get an extra cash buffer during development, in case something goes wrong and they need extra funds for back up, what’s so bad about that?

Another impression people seem to have is that DF or any developer for that matter only exists to make games for us and have a “Will make games for food” sings hanging around their necks. No they want to make money like the rest of us, they want to buy cars, cool gadgets and put their kids through college.

The difference with Publishers is that is not ALL about the bottom line for most developers, they have what you would call artistic integrity to some extend or another; they need to be proud of their work, that doesn’t mean they not out to make money.

So if these pre-orders turn out to be pure profit for the studio so what? Is not like they stealing it, or that pre-orders won’t be made available when the game gets closer to release anyway like it happens with pretty much every other game that gets released.

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