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DF needs to address where the pre-order money is going. If it's just for general money for the studio, the $15 Kickstarter reward tier really meant nothing and the promise of exclusivity is being broken. I'm with you, assuming DF puts all of the money from the pre-order into DFA. It's more the principle of the thing and being able to trust DF when they make some other future promise that may impact our wallets.

To my way of thinking, general profit for Double Fine is beneficial for the project anyway, by assisting the health of the company and the many expenses involved in running one, which can only aid the stress levels and creative capacity of the developers. Fair enough if you have a different perspective, though.

What I find harder to believe is that our wallets are being impacted. What is the financial value of forum exclusivity anyway? If both the game and a year's worth of HD video documentation of development is ours for $15, exactly how much of an impact on our wallets does change in the level of exclusivity of the backer forum actually have? I understand that different people value things differently, and someone may have somehow felt that forum exclusivity was the more valuable part of the deal, but I do feel like anyone feeling ripped off is losing some perspective on what this whole thing is all about. Perhaps Double Fine could have thought the 'backer exclusivity' through more in the first place, I don't know, but it should at least be clear that they are not trying to rip anyone off. I think it's more likely that, now that the project is moving forward, it doesn't make much sense to them to cut the rest of the world off from sharing in this experience as well, provided they are willing to front the cost of a pre-order, which is all the majority of backers did anyway. In spite of the promised exclusivity, I personally feel it is much more positive for the game, Double Fine, AND the community for the doors to remain open.

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DF needs to address where the pre-order money is going. If it's just for general money for the studio, the $15 Kickstarter reward tier really meant nothing and the promise of exclusivity is being broken. I'm with you, assuming DF puts all of the money from the pre-order into DFA. It's more the principle of the thing and being able to trust DF when they make some other future promise that may impact our wallets.

To my way of thinking, general profit for Double Fine is beneficial for the project anyway, by assisting the health of the company and the many expenses involved in running one, which can only aid the stress levels and creative capacity of the developers. Fair enough if you have a different perspective, though.

What I find harder to believe is that our wallets are being impacted. What is the financial value of forum exclusivity anyway? If both the game and a year's worth of HD video documentation of development is ours for $15, exactly how much of an impact on our wallets does change in the level of exclusivity of the backer forum actually have? I understand that different people value things differently, and someone may have somehow felt that forum exclusivity was the more valuable part of the deal, but I do feel like anyone feeling ripped off is losing some perspective on what this whole thing is all about. Perhaps Double Fine could have thought the 'backer exclusivity' through more in the first place, I don't know, but it should at least be clear that they are not trying to rip anyone off. I think it's more likely that, now that the project is moving forward, it doesn't make much sense to them to cut the rest of the world off from sharing in this experience as well, provided they are willing to front the cost of a pre-order, which is all the majority of backers did anyway. In spite of the promised exclusivity, I personally feel it is much more positive for the game, Double Fine, AND the community for the doors to remain open.

I agree! And after all... the documentary alone is easily worth 15 bucks (if we stay realistic!). Besides for example if you check out the Kickstarter project "Ravaged" you have to pay 15 bucks to only be able to pay the Beta (nothing more...). There are not many projects that offer us more (most projects offer a lot less) ! If someone is ripping anyone off than... well to be honest... I kinda feel like ripping DF off myself, for having chosen such a low pledge (was my first kickstarter experience, so I was pretty careful about it) :-( so I can't really say I'd mind coming up to meet DF in this matter... not one second!

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All of you who argue that forums exclusivity is not important, or that YOU don't have any issue with opening them up, fail to see the problem. It's not about what you or I think, but about integrity and keeping your word.

The facts are:

1. It was clearly indicated in the Kickstarter campaign that the forum access will be exclusive for Kickstarter backers.

Arguing about exact semantics of their promise is void, the meaning was absolutely clear. Some people (as the poll in the other thread has shown) pledged money because of the exclusivity. Again, you can argue all you want that it is unreasonable - it doesn't matter, they have their right to feel cheated, because DF backed out on the reward.

2. Pre-ordering is a different thing than backing the project.

Our money goes into production of the game, pre-order money is pure profit for DF. Sure, more money for DF potentially means a better game, but then why not offer physical items for pre-orders as well? Or even rewards not offered in Kickstarter fundraiser?

3. The campaign was all over the internet; even non-gaming media mentioned it.

Saying that keeping the forums exclusive is unfair for people that "did not know about it" is hence a pretty weak argument. Furthermore, following that logic, you could argue that Steam sales are unfair as well - after all, some people will miss them, so they should just drop the price for good.

I really hope DF will understand this and change their mind. After all the talking of how thankful they are for the backers, how it is great that community sticks together, it would be a huge shame if one of their first decisions after securing the money would be to knowingly fail to keep their word and make many backers bitter just to get slightly bigger profits from pre-orders.

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All of you who argue that forums exclusivity is not important, or that YOU don't have any issue with opening them up, fail to see the problem. It's not about what you or I think, but about integrity and keeping your word.

The facts are:

1. It was clearly indicated in the Kickstarter campaign that the forum access will be exclusive for Kickstarter backers.

Arguing about exact semantics of their promise is void, the meaning was absolutely clear. Some people (as the poll in the other thread has shown) pledged money because of the exclusivity. Again, you can argue all you want that it is unreasonable - it doesn't matter, they have their right to feel cheated, because DF backed out on the reward.

2. Pre-ordering is a different thing than backing the project.

Our money goes into production of the game, pre-order money is pure profit for DF. Sure, more money for DF potentially means a better game, but then why not offer physical items for pre-orders as well? Or even rewards not offered in Kickstarter fundraiser?

3. The campaign was all over the internet; even non-gaming media mentioned it.

Saying that keeping the forums exclusive is unfair for people that "did not know about it" is hence a pretty weak argument. Furthermore, following that logic, you could argue that Steam sales are unfair as well - after all, some people will miss them, so they should just drop the price for good.

I really hope DF will understand this and change their mind. After all the talking of how thankful they are for the backers, how it is great that community sticks together, it would be a huge shame if one of their first decisions after securing the money would be to knowingly fail to keep their word and make many backers bitter just to get slightly bigger profits from pre-orders.

I'm still failing to see how this is even remotely a big deal. So what if some more people come on board later then others. None of this harms anyone and if Double Fine feels this is a good way to make some more money, good for them. Exclusivity doesn't really mean anything when things change in a heartbeat. Sure it's nice and all but it doesn't really mean much at the end of the day.

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Lets say that, hypothetically, Kickstarter-backer-only exclusivity is maintained for the private forums. Should pre-orderers get access to the documentary (the documentary was never specified to be backer-exclusive)? If so, do you think there's a problem with there being a split in the community between Kickstarter people and non, likely discussing the same topics separately? Is there anything problematic about people who have access to the doco but not the private forums having to discuss private content on the public forum? If doco discussion is then commonplace on the public forums, would Kickstarter backers start discussing it on the public forums as well in order to have more inclusive discussions? Would there be any purpose to the exclusivity of the forums at that point? Just some thoughts.

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All of you who argue that forums exclusivity is not important, or that YOU don't have any issue with opening them up, fail to see the problem. It's not about what you or I think, but about integrity and keeping your word.

...

I really hope DF will understand this and change their mind. After all the talking of how thankful they are for the backers, how it is great that community sticks together....

1. Really? You're implying asking to sell more to help the company is displaying a lack of integrity? They are keeping their word, they're asking if they can change the terms.

2. It is great when the community sticks together. The vast majority are sticking together and saying go ahead.

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All of you who argue that forums exclusivity is not important, or that YOU don't have any issue with opening them up, fail to see the problem. It's not about what you or I think, but about integrity and keeping your word.

I think during this whole discussion it became pretty clear that for some people this integrity thing is a huge issue. And let me put it this way: I think you can understand this issue and still feel differently about it. If basically you're implying that your arguments are the one thing that makes sense, and there's no other because every other opinion is flawed... well ... I don't think a discussion works like that (if it were that simple, the discussion would have ended after 7,8 pages or so). And if let's say you think there's nothing to actually "discuss" here, then you'd be mistaken, also since it's almost impossible to undiscuss a discussion by saying there's no discussion (which usually is out of discussion, if you have been discussing something for a while, hihi).

Point is... we all made our positions clear and it should be transparent what the issues are! We'll see how DF will handle it.

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How is this even an issue?

If the project gets more money, it's more likely to not only be finished, but actually be better.

Why would anyone want what they paid for not to be as good as humanly possible?

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How is this even an issue?

If the project gets more money, it's more likely to not only be finished, but actually be better.

Why would anyone want what they paid for not to be as good as humanly possible?

Check out the previous pages... it has been explained a couple of times (if we start all over again with it.... aaaaaah *lol*)

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If this is really more about DF keeping their word than anything, they could make an 'exclusive pre-orderers AND Kickstarter-backers forum', along side the existing '1337 Kickstarter-backers-only forum', thus creating a private space for everyone with doco access to discuss it while technically remaining true to the wording of the Kickstarter rewards (even if the uber exclusive forum would pretty much be redundant... but hey, nobody's out of pocket, because they just gave you another FREE exclusive forum on top of the other one!). Sounds silly, but frankly, so does judging Double Fine's integrity over this. From where I'm sitting, their positive intent is glaring.

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I'm hungry, what should I eat next? hmm... I had pancakes for breakfast, usually that's enough to keep me going for a while, but today I'm...

Oh, hello fellow backers, I didn't see you there.

Judging from lack of response here, I think DF is not really listening on this thread anymore, just something you may want to consider.

Now where was I, yes, pancakes...

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Fun pills and sleds for everyone. :)

Smiles

YAY!! And ... and... can I have a cappuccino... NO NO... CHAI TEA...yeah... happy chai tea with milk and maaaany fun pills in it instead of sugar or honey. That would be AWESOME

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I'm still failing to see how this is even remotely a big deal. So what if some more people come on board later then others. None of this harms anyone and if Double Fine feels this is a good way to make some more money, good for them. Exclusivity doesn't really mean anything when things change in a heartbeat. Sure it's nice and all but it doesn't really mean much at the end of the day.

Personally, I agree with you - I don't care if froums are exclusive or not. But that was my entire point - exclusivity may not mean much to you and me, but as the poll indicated, it does mean much to some people. And since they pledged their money because of it, you cannot just say they are a minority and it is not a big deal. You should honour the deal, even if 99% of the backers don't care.

(...) Should pre-orderers get access to the documentary (the documentary was never specified to be backer-exclusive)? (...) Just some thoughts.

For how much DF sells their game, and if they include the documentary, is not really our business - as you said, these things were not promised to be exclusive. I don't think people will willingly move to public topics, but if they do, it will be their own decision. Otherwise, I think you made very good points - there's no perfect solution, and either way, this may create some division and/or tension in the forums.

1. Really? You're implying asking to sell more to help the company is displaying a lack of integrity? They are keeping their word, they're asking if they can change the terms.

2. It is great when the community sticks together. The vast majority are sticking together and saying go ahead.

1. You're right, it's great that they asked us if they can change the terms. And some people said "no". Since they made a deal with each of us individually, they shouldn't disregard that minority, however small it should be.

2. Seems that we have different definitions of "sticking together" - mine is based around not excluding people who think differently, yours seems to indicate that majority is right and minority should just go along.

If basically you're implying that your arguments are the one thing that makes sense, and there's no other because every other opinion is flawed... well ... I don't think a discussion works like that (if it were that simple, the discussion would have ended after 7,8 pages or so).

I didn't make what I meant clear enough: I am not saying that it doesn't matter what each of us thinks about opening the forums, quite the contrary! I meant that the argument "I don't care about exclusivity so others don't have a right to care and feel cheated" is ultimately flawed, as this is not the point most of the "naysayers" are making. The question we ask is "Can we disregard those people, whether we agree with them or not, just because they are in minority?"

One more thing: While increasing pre-order profit by opening the forums will benefit the company in the short-term, some people will feel pretty sour about it. And next time some company wants to raise money for a game, the same people will just say "why should I pledge anything and take the risk, If I can get the same rewards half a year later, when I already know how the game is going to look?". Is it really worth slowing down this Kickstarter rush just to sell slightly more copies in pre-order?

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Personally, I agree with you - I don't care if froums are exclusive or not. But that was my entire point - exclusivity may not mean much to you and me, but as the poll indicated, it does mean much to some people. And since they pledged their money because of it, you cannot just say they are a minority and it is not a big deal. You should honour the deal, even if 99% of the backers don't care.

You sir, are what's known as a "shit-stirrer". If you don't care, then why are you complaining? So far only 18 people said they donated their money BECAUSE of the backer forums. And I'm guessing that most of them only voted that because the poll made it sound like EVERYONE was going to get access, and not just those who paid money for them.

In other words, stop fighting other people's battles for them.

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I'm hungry, what should I eat next? hmm... I had pancakes for breakfast, usually that's enough to keep me going for a while, but today I'm...

Oh, hello fellow backers, I didn't see you there.

Judging from lack of response here, I think DF is not really listening on this thread anymore, just something you may want to consider.

Now where was I, yes, pancakes...

Can we get a consensus what type of pancakes? Any feedback from DF? Let me start the first poll about that...

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I'm hungry, what should I eat next? hmm... I had pancakes for breakfast, usually that's enough to keep me going for a while, but today I'm...

Oh, hello fellow backers, I didn't see you there.

Judging from lack of response here, I think DF is not really listening on this thread anymore, just something you may want to consider.

Now where was I, yes, pancakes...

Can we get a consensus what type of pancakes? Any feedback from DF? Let me start the first poll about that...

What kind of pancake should I eat then? Any recommendation?

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I'm hungry, what should I eat next? hmm... I had pancakes for breakfast, usually that's enough to keep me going for a while, but today I'm...

Oh, hello fellow backers, I didn't see you there.

Judging from lack of response here, I think DF is not really listening on this thread anymore, just something you may want to consider.

Now where was I, yes, pancakes...

Can we get a consensus what type of pancakes? Any feedback from DF? Let me start the first poll about that...

Since we're turning around in circles repeating ourselves like broken records... I VOTE FOR PANCAKES!!! ANY PANCAKE AT ALL!! I agree whatever ...

But no poll... PLEASE NO POLL !!!!

Okay, now I'm sounding a bit too desperate *lol*. But I'd really like to have feedback from DF. And I mean I don't wanna sound needy and so but... it feels like DF really needs someone to handle this forum communication! Maybe use the money from the pre-sales to pay that person ;)

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2. Seems that we have different definitions of "sticking together" - mine is based around not excluding people who think differently, yours seems to indicate that majority is right and minority should just go along.

I don't think people who missed the Kickstarter should be excluded either. They are presumably as small (or large) a minority as those who disagree.

If this is all about inclusion of cool people, let's include others who like the same stuff we do, but missed the Kickstarter for whatever reason.

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

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I Don't See what risk there is in pledging, if the project does not meet the goal nothing happens. Also I think that the vast majority of the backers does not care at all about "exclusive" access. If you don't agree that more money makes a better game just don't pledge next Time.

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

I agree! And they should make one episode about pancakes!!

Or a game about pancake.

Pancake adventures ;)

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

I agree! And they should make one episode about pancakes!!

Or a game about pancake.

Pancake adventures ;)

There might be a problem with localisation, you know? Different cultures, different pancakes... Anyway, I vote for quark cheese and spinach. Who's in?

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

I agree! And they should make one episode about pancakes!!

Or a game about pancake.

Pancake adventures ;)

There might be a problem with localisation, you know? Different cultures, different pancakes... Anyway, I vote for quark cheese and spinach. Who's in?

Do you mean this?

spinach-pancakes.jpg

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

I agree! And they should make one episode about pancakes!!

Or a game about pancake.

Pancake adventures ;)

There might be a problem with localisation, you know? Different cultures, different pancakes... Anyway, I vote for quark cheese and spinach. Who's in?

I guess you should be able to choose what pancake you wanna play (adapted to various cultures) :)

Anyway... at this point of the discussion I'm willing to eat almost anything (but cheese and spinach is a good choice). And after this a sweet pancake as dessert... maybe nutella?

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

I agree! And they should make one episode about pancakes!!

Or a game about pancake.

Pancake adventures ;)

There might be a problem with localisation, you know? Different cultures, different pancakes... Anyway, I vote for quark cheese and spinach. Who's in?

Do you mean this?

spinach-pancakes.jpg

DAMN! Now I'm really hungry! THANKS A LOT

;)

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

I agree! And they should make one episode about pancakes!!

Or a game about pancake.

Pancake adventures ;)

There might be a problem with localisation, you know? Different cultures, different pancakes... Anyway, I vote for quark cheese and spinach. Who's in?

Do you mean this?

More like this

naleśniki+ze+szpinakiem+a

I come from a land of thousand pancakes where we like them big and flat. Just like our coffee.

Oh, wait...

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Yes, no polls.

DF should definitely tell us what pancakes they eat. I want to see this in the next documentary post!

I agree! And they should make one episode about pancakes!!

Or a game about pancake.

Pancake adventures ;)

There might be a problem with localisation, you know? Different cultures, different pancakes... Anyway, I vote for quark cheese and spinach. Who's in?

I guess you should be able to choose what pancake you wanna play (adapted to various cultures) :)

Anyway... at this point of the discussion I'm willing to eat almost anything (but cheese and spinach is a good choice). And after this a sweet pancake as dessert... maybe nutella?

I wonder if Smiles has a special pancake with those pills he kept offering. Will that work?

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