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What's not clear here is whether most naysayers would be fine if the new participants get to join only if those would pay more for the same privileges/get less privileges than the original backers

OR

exclusive for them means you paid your dues to Kickstarter

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Just checked the Kickstarter page, and in fact only the physical rewards come with the statement that they are "exclusive to the campaign". The only other use of the work "exclusive" is regarding the Steam Beta, which says "exclusive access to the Beta on Steam", but it doesn't say what it is exclusive of (it doen't mention Kickstarter or the campaign). It can just as well be interpreted that the Steam beta will not be publicly avilable for free, like some Steam betas are, but will be exclusive to those who paid for the game.

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I say we have a secret exclusive backer forum in which we can talk about these new backers behind their back.

I'm sure it's possible, DF must have more forums that only they access and they talk about us behind our backs... HEY! Double Fine, what gives?

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Double Fine could make even more money by making a First Person Shooter rather than an Adventure game, and by the responses here, most people would love that, as it would be great for the studio.

Leaving aside if it'd be good for the studio (which I very much doubt), no that's not something most people would love, because then we wouldn't get the game we paid for. That's the difference. Selling it to more people doesn't change what I get.

Exactly ! I guess most of us are interested in what's best for the project we backed for. It's not about what's best for Double Fine. But many do care about the genre. I'd say best outcome would be: What's good for us is good for Double Fine is good for the Genre...

Anyhow I think it's also important to consider that this is not just about one game. DFA could have bigger implications. It could also be about kickstarting the genre! That's something that matters to anyone who loves Adventures! It could be a way to create a stronge genre-fanbase which however would require to be really open the gates. Here we all are close to the process which is why it's the best way for it. Anyhow that's my opinion (and I know there's a lot idealism in it) and I assume that many others will not share that point of view and bring reasonable arguments for their own point of view.

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Coming late into this as I didn’t log in for the past few days.

IMHO, the deciding point has nth to do with wanting to feel special or holding on to some exclusivity paid for during the Kickstarter campaign.

It’s in Greg’s OP.

~snip~

This would not only really benefit the studio, ~snip~

The additional amount of money is not intended to go to the game itself – though some already noticed/ pointed this out, they also passed over it very quickly.

So, what Greg’s saying is that DF decided to start early sales of the game to add fuel to the company’s finances, which is not only their prerogative & completely fine with me, but actually clever - given that DF isn’t a NPO, trying to capitalize while still being hot news is a smart business decision.

These pre-orders (which, if I’m not mistaken, are governed by different consumer law rights than pledges/ donations):

* Will be as low as the lowest Kickstarter tier – which is also their right and I don't think matters that much to people.

* Include all the incentives of the Kickstarter campaign at that tier – which is the point that ticks people off.

I don’t see why a number of people find it so unmeaning that it does tick off another number of people – all the points they’ve made sound valid. I also find it hard to understand how people who are on higher tiers (i.e. include physical goods) are so quick to condescend the value of the non-physical goods of the lowest tier and along with that, the people that pledged at that tier. People don’t seem to realize that almost half of the money raised, comes from the first two tiers.

As for people getting technical about what was promised “exclusively”, the only two mentions of the word are for the Beta on Steam and for the items on the $100 tier. So what? Does this mean that only the people on the $100 tier (which was the most popular of the ones with physical goods) have ensured "exclusivity"? And if so, everything else can go either way and it doesn’t matter how it makes people feel?

I’ll say it again, exclusivity doesn’t really mean anything to me – I’m even starting to get annoyed by having to log in just to read the posts here. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t understand if people feel otherwise.

In a way, equaling pledges made during the Kickstarter campaign with pre-orders opened after it does defeat the frame, purpose and meaning of Kickstarter as a medium and of the DF campaign itself. A pre-order is, by definition, not the same as a pledge/ donation and since the money won’t go into the game, pre-orders do not equal backing. On the other hand, backing/ donations (in general) don't mean you get something in return, then again, you don't donate to some higher cause for the greater good.

Which means, I can understand all sides here.

An alternative would be to run a backing campaign through PayPal with different tiers with a definite deadline - Phoenix Online Studios (Cognition) run a two weeks one right after their Kickstarter campaign ended. This of course would require the extra money to go into the game.

If instead a typical pre-order is chosen, it'd be good (if not necessary), to take the feelings and views of people on the lower tiers into account.

Just my 2c.

Putting all this aside, what puzzles me is the following:

~snip~

We just wanted to give you all a heads up. Let us know what you think!

If DF has already decided to go ahead with it as described, why are they asking what the Kickstarter campaign backers think? And how would it matter what the backers think?

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In addition, we have interpreted what was promised or not a bit differently (I'm thinking of the word "exclusive" here), so that I don't see a breach of promise either, but that's a minor issue anyway compared to if they'd change something about the game ("let's make it an FPS" or "a sequel" or whatever -- that would be a reason to get upset bigtime, but I don't see that happening because they're opening up preorders).

From the Kickstarter page: "monthly video updates exclusively to the Kickstarter backers" (though, of course, they can change their minds). So yes, they have broken their promise. Also, consider that they're keeping physical items exclusive to Kickstarter backers but videos, beta access, etc. not. Why is the line drawn there? I don't know.

Essentially, Double Fine is saying that as long as backers are getting an adventure game and the physical rewards stay exclusive to them, none of the other stuff matters. Note that they don't mention an original game or a sequel on their Kickstarter page either, so this could have easily been a sequel, without issue on their part. And given that, you wouldn't really have reason to get upset, right?

I suppose their biggest mistake was not making things clear up front. Even how small the adventure game would be on a $400,000 budget wasn't made clear until much later. Not sure if being vague was part of the strategy.

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In addition, we have interpreted what was promised or not a bit differently (I'm thinking of the word "exclusive" here), so that I don't see a breach of promise either, but that's a minor issue anyway compared to if they'd change something about the game ("let's make it an FPS" or "a sequel" or whatever -- that would be a reason to get upset bigtime, but I don't see that happening because they're opening up preorders).

From the Kickstarter page: "monthly video updates exclusively to the Kickstarter backers" (though, of course, they can change their minds). So yes, they have broken their promise. Also, consider that they're keeping physical items exclusive to Kickstarter backers but videos, beta access, etc. not. Why is the line drawn there? I don't know.

Essentially, Double Fine is saying that as long as backers are getting an adventure game and the physical rewards stay exclusive to them, none of the other stuff matters. Note that they don't mention an original game or a sequel on their Kickstarter page either, so this could have easily been a sequel, without issue on their part. And given that, you wouldn't really have reason to get upset, right?

I suppose their biggest mistake was not making things clear up front. Even how small the adventure game would be on a $400,000 budget wasn't made clear until much later. Not sure if being vague was part of the strategy.

I doubt being vague was a strategy, the pitch was actually very clear. They even covered what would happen if the game would suck that we'll get a great documentary. So far, it's true, the documentary part, not that the game sucks, I mean, wait, let me rephrase... uggghhh...

See what you've done, now we are in the lawyer fine print realm.

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This is from March: http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/6047/P45/#191579

DF Greg:

"We have to respect our original backers and the pledges they made. For this reason, we won’t be selling the shirts, posters, art book, or collector’s edition of the game after the project is complete. We will however be making both the game and documentary available for purchase for those who may have missed out on the first go round. They just won’t be able to get all the sexy extras the backers do!"

So, the way they're making the game and documentary available for purchase is with a pre-order and it comes with access to the forums. Note: They couldn't grant access to the documentary without giving people access to the forums, because the doc isn't available to the general public. They could have only made the game and doc available after release in a year or so, but it seems that they wanted to include people who missed out on the Kickstarter early on in the process for the reasons mentioned previously.

From the Kickstarter page: "monthly video updates exclusively to the Kickstarter backers" (though, of course, they can change their minds). So yes, they have broken their promise. Also, consider that they're keeping physical items exclusive to Kickstarter backers but videos, beta access, etc. not. Why is the line drawn there? I don't know.

Because it doesn't cost much to include some people in digital rewards like the forum and documentaries, and it also doesn't prevent those who were originally going to get those rewards from enjoying them (hint, hint).

Physical rewards are expensive to manufacture, and the details (how many to order, t-shirt sizes, etc.) have to be locked down as soon as possible, which is what they did. That's why the line is drawn here.

Essentially, Double Fine is saying that as long as backers are getting an adventure game and the physical rewards stay exclusive to them, none of the other stuff matters. Note that they don't mention an original game or a sequel on their Kickstarter page either, so this could have easily been a sequel, without issue on their part. And given that, you wouldn't really have reason to get upset, right?

I suppose their biggest mistake was not making things clear up front. Even how small the adventure game would be on a $400,000 budget wasn't made clear until much later. Not sure if being vague was part of the strategy.

They also didn't mention whether we'd be getting a free elephant with our pledge or not. Where's my free elephant? They were "vague" because they had no idea how successful this would be. They thought they could make a game of limited scope for $300,000 (plus the documentary for $100,000) but they left it open enough to fill in the blanks later. Logically, this was never going to be a sequel. Of the IP that they even own (most of those classic adventures are owned by Lucasarts, don't forget), no true sequel could have been made for such a small budget.

Look, I know you think it's a matter of rules and principle and fairness, etc., but why so rigid? I honestly don't think excluding a bunch of people who would have been Kickstarters themselves if not for whatever reason prevented them helps the cause any. I can kind of see your point, but it mostly comes off to me like nit-picking over semantics and I don't feel myself exactly overflowing with empathy. Sorry. If someone is (metaphorically, and I'm not saying you are, but you KIND OF are) gleefully jumping up and down saying "Haha, you missed your chance, suckers! I'm exclusive!," it makes me want to kick things.

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The use of terms like "exclusive" in these cases is quite normal, not necessarily good or bad, maybe just to strengthen the concept. There are even famous games named "limited edition" that are only available in that edition.. The fact is 90.000 people made the history and this is already something exclusive even before the game release (and they continue to make it, since the new projects are in large part a consequence). Now other people want to help and this is not a real problem, since helping the project they help us too. So the Paypal thing can be modulated in a way or in another to get a bigger consensus on it, but the concept seems to be ok for everybody.

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Fun pills for everyone.

Oh sure, the first taste is always free. That's how they get you.

I'm onto you, Candyman :-/

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It starts to sound like DoubleFine is some evil oil company full of suits...

I'd like to add a few more things:

1) I think DoubleFine can't risk to take ANY decision lightly. These are normal people like me and you. They depend on people who love to play their games. We're all in this together for about 10-12 months. Just pissing people off and acting all lawyery ... that's not likely going to happen...

2) Let's think about this again: This whole discussion started all in favour for DF's suggestion! Then suddenly we had this turn-around (interestingly pretty soon after DF Greg thought that he had our support). If you think about it... it's kinda a strange situation. Anyway! So far nothing really happened! So far it's only a heads-up, asking for our opinion. That's it. We should treat it that way! I haven't seen any public announcement that anything has been decided yet. So it's no use accusing anyone of anything. I have no reason to not trust DF. If I had... I wouldn't be here! If we want them to keep us updated (and I do) and that's our reaction... let me put it this way: we should be better than that. But I think we also need to try to understand and accept different positions in this matter. It's good that we make clear what's important for us. Of course we should be open to talk about it and accept compromises. Chances are, if we think so, others will too - and some of the reasons are in fact pretty reasonable! Different personalities, different experiences, different expectations... obviously lead to different positions in this question. An interesting situation!

3) If the DFA campaign was unclear than probably because DF didn't know how to do it better, what would be important for us to know, what we expect and what's clear for us - and also because we didn't ask the right questions!

4) Why sequels wouldn't be likely became clear during the discussions in this forum --> now we all know that especially LucasArts wants a lot of money. Too much. And it doesn't really make sense to have a sequel from any other DF game because the genre's are different (also it would still be a licence thingy).

5) Let's face it: This whole kickstarter campaign has become bigger than expected. For the guys from DF I'm pretty sure it takes a lot energy!!!! Now they have to set up a much bigger project than intended. Also consider all the interviews Tim and the rest had to give during the past weeks, the frequent videos and also the need to make people and various media aware of the campaign and so on. All takes a lot of energy. DoubleFine isn't that big and obviously they also don't that enough people to handle forum communication (yet). Problem is; if you don't have the experience with such a situation yet, you don't know what you need. We should give them time to learn how to handle this situation just like we need to learn how to handle it. It's important to trust each other and discuss it in a reasonable manner without premature assumptions. Dealing with many people... from my experience it's no easy thing to do. Masses are difficult and sometimes they react very different than expected. You can suggest something with good intention and they totally get it wrong and suspect foul play. And this can go a pretty wrong direction. It takes a lot experience to handle this well.

And yes. In the end it's not our decision. But I trust DF to find a good way to handle this situation!

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@bearseatbeats

Quoting DF Greg from March doesn't seem to be a good idea - it just shows that Greg contradicts himself in less than a month later:

We have to respect our original backers and the pledges they made. For this reason, we won't be selling the shirts, posters, art book, or collector's edition of the game after the project is complete. We will however be making both the game and documentary available for purchase for those who may have missed out on the first go round. They just won't be able to get all the sexy extras the backers do!

(emphasis added for obvious reasons)

Combing crowdfunding with the usual business model seems to introduce quite a number of issues neither party was prepared for :roll:

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Reg:

They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.

Stan:

And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.

Reg:

Yes.

Stan:

And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.

Reg:

All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?

Xerxes:

Kickstater adventure game.

Reg:

Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.

Masked Activist:

And this forum!

Stan:

Oh yes... forum, Reg, you remember what the Internet used to be like.

Reg:

All right, I'll grant you that Kickstarter adventure game and the forum are two things that Double Fine have done...

Matthias:

And the documentary by 2 Player Productions...

Reg:

(sharply) Well yes obviously the documentary... the documentary goes without saying. But apart from Kickstarter adventure game, the forum and the documentary...

Another Masked Activist:

Digital game soundtrack...

Other Masked Voices:

Digital documentary soundtrack... Double Fine Adventure book... backer T-shirt...

Reg:

Yes... all right, fair enough...

Activist Near Front:

And Tim Schafer...

Omnes:

Oh yes! True!

Francis:

Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if he left, Reg.

Masked Activist at Back:

a game poster!

Stan:

And special thanks in the game’s credits to view the entire night.

Francis:

Yes, they certainly know how to make this game... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.

(more general murmurs of agreement)

Reg:

All right... all right... but apart from Kickstarter adventure game and the forum and the documentary and digital game soundtrack and digital documentary soundtrack and Double Fine Adventure book and backer T-shirt and Tim Schafer and a game poster and special thanks in the game’s credits... what have Double Fine done for us?

Xerxes:

Psychonauts!

Reg:

(very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) Psychonauts, yes... shut up!

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Fun pills for everyone.

Smiles

Ah the Facilitates Uncontrollable Naysaying pills. I think we've had enough of those already. :)

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I am still amazed by the growing amount of nay sayers... whats so special about having payed 15$ in a 30 day period that no one else would be allowed to do so now? It´s like children playing in the sand box going "This is MY truck and you CAN´T play with it (even if it seemed like i was not interested in playing with it a second ago)!"

Your not better than these people, you just happend to read the right blog at the right point in time while having enough money spare to get in. You are just one of 87,142 people and you will not be more or less special if you end up being one of 100,000 people. Your just one straw in a haystack, and no farmer can feed his animals with just one straw. So get over it Mr. big time gamefinancer. :-p

So who cares? Why care? We are at DF now, kickstarter is in the past. What you are saying basicly is we could harm other kickstarter projects if "we" allow this to happen. And i bet you it will not.

Your argument assumes the objections are solely based on "I have it and you can't". My personal objection isn't the money, it is the principle. Tim and other Double Fine'rs stated throughout the Kickstarter campaign that the rewards were exclusive to Kickstarter backers. Now that there is an opportunity to make more money, the promise changed.

edit. fixed the grama on this.

Nah, my argument is that you force people that would like to pay into pirating their videos and beta builds. Just alow them in and everyone is happy.

Most peoples argument is "I have it and you can't" which is ignoring that officially "no one wants this not to be private but pirated" vote we had. (and i personally think most of the people that voted for strict piracy rules already did that with a "I have it and you can't" in mind aswell. I bet most of them are illegal downloaders if they want something they can´t normaly get or aford... but now that they invested something it´s all different.)

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Your argument assumes the objections are solely based on "I have it and you can't". My personal objection isn't the money, it is the principle. Tim and other Double Fine'rs stated throughout the Kickstarter campaign that the rewards were exclusive to Kickstarter backers. Now that there is an opportunity to make more money, the promise changed.

As best I can see, the argument is that not in the rewards, but in an update during a hurried campaign, someone specified 'kickstarter' before backers, and that because they did, THAT should be honored as sacrosanct INSTEAD OF what you paid for via pledge. Personally, I think one word that should be considered a potential indicator rather than a wholesale indictment. I.e. if that one instance is all you can produce, I offer you to consider the merit of the moral argument here, your promised reward was in a different place than you're looking.

Still though, this is a kickstarter project. So even under that term, new people to back the project are backing Double Fine Adventure, which only exists because of kickstarter. It is and remains a kickstarter project, the game even got mention in Forbes because of it.

@aura:

If you're saying that he contradicted himself referring to 'all the sexy extras', that's still true, there were a lot of other extras, and backers could choose between all of them, pre-order customers can only choose him.

I understand trepidation, but I really don't feel betrayed by this. Selling the game was always the idea, and both forum access and video access make that sale more tempting. If helping Double Fine make a product was the intention, and they are honoring the value of your pledge, to me I consider the intention of the campaign to be adhered to, even if a word of it seems to have run afoul of that intention. Not that the word 'kickstarter' is without meaning, only that I don't define it as strictly when considering the full nature of the project.

Let it be said, if they repeatedly sold people on the exclusivity of kickstarter rewards and not more generally backer rewards and I did not notice it, I am willing to hear it out!

2) Let's think about this again: This whole discussion started all in favour for DF's suggestion! Then suddenly we had this turn-around (interestingly pretty soon after DF Greg thought that he had our support). If you think about it... it's kinda a strange situation.

My guess is that the piling-on with regards to people who disagreed brought others to the forefront. In one example, I must say if meisjoe wasn't gone, I'd stick up for him. He has his opinion, the opinion seems properly based on what he legitimately perceived. It is very reasonable that it affected how he feels. I may not share the same feelings, but I think some of the responses to him contributed to a combative tone that was not helpful. With that said however, I would point out that the polls about seem to show extremely strong support for this idea despite the fact that those debating it may be more polarized.

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I didn't read the whole thread (I did skim most of it), but I don't have a problem with more people having access to the forums. It's not as though I can't see the other side of it, but at the end of the day I signed up for a game, not the forums/videos. Those are fun extras and nothing more.

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Add me to the list of people all for letting in more people—whatever's good for Doublefine sounds good to me. Even if the money is just pure profit and isn't going into the development of the game, I'm sure the artists and writers and programmers and all the other game developers will be able to make a much better game if they're not worrying that they're going to be out of a job once it's complete.

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Until I read so many of the negative responses (from those for and against this), I thought private access to the forums was going to be pretty special.

This thread has been a little like watching a mob burn down a building so that no one can sleep in their bedroom.

It hasn't just been the strange rabid need for exclusivity that bothers me either. It's also the snark and disrespect shown by an ulterior mob mentality by some frenzied backers who disagree with any dissent.

Personally, I'm all for opening the doors. I don't care if every pre-order dollar goes to propping up Double Fine two years from now. I love this company, I love what they do.

Still, I don't have a problem with well reasoned dissent from people who DO feel slighted. That's kind of what discussion is for. Not for shouting down ideas that you don't like.

At this point, let's be honest: Access to the forums might be punishment enough for not signing up early.

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Until I read so many of the negative responses (from those for and against this), I thought private access to the forums was going to be pretty special.

This thread has been a little like watching a mob burn down a building so that no one can sleep in their bedroom.

It hasn't just been the strange rabid need for exclusivity that bothers me either. It's also the snark and disrespect shown by an ulterior mob mentality by some frenzied backers who disagree with any dissent.

Personally, I'm all for opening the doors. I don't care if every pre-order dollar goes to propping up Double Fine two years from now. I love this company, I love what they do.

Still, I don't have a problem with well reasoned dissent from people who DO feel slighted. That's kind of what discussion is for. Not for shouting down ideas that you don't like.

At this point, let's be honest: Access to the forums might be punishment enough for not signing up early.

Your points about the way this discussion has devolved are valid—it would probably do everyone good to reread the decency standards, and to try to put themselves in other people's shoes. But there's no reason to write off the whole forum experience because of the discussion over this one topic! Yes, all the backers of this project are obviously Excellent People With Good Taste, but even we're bound to have a bad day every once in a while. Even though there are disagreements here, these forums can still be a great place. There doesn't need to be all this gloom and doom.

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They should include all the $15 preorder people in the credits too... Why should that be exclusive to the kickstarter $100 tier? Kickstarter's over man. It's a brave new world now!

In fact, I don't even think Double Fine should sell the game, after it's done... I mean - that's lame... Why should the game be exclusive to the people who bought it? It belongs to everyone! Damn selfish elitists, with their money... We'll show them!

Everybody look how noble I am! Aren't I just the greatest?

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At this point, let's be honest: Access to the forums might be punishment enough for not signing up early.

Funny that, I was just thinking the same thing =). I suppose it all depends on your reasoning for signing up to this project so I can see why some peeps would be miffed about opening it up a little afterwards. I'm all for making it available for more like-minded people. I happened to be there on the first day when this thing hit the roof but it was sheer luck I found out. I normally don't check any news sites so I could easily have missed this. Does that make me a less passionate person about adventure games? Hell no, I have been waiting for games from these guys since the mid-90's. But I can say I would feel very fortunate if I did miss the kickstarter and was allowed to join later. I feel the same way about the Minecraft KS which I missed and regretfully have to wait a long time for now..

For me, I feel happy that I have made this game possible and I see it as a way of reviving the genre which is in dire need of fresh blood. Allowing extra people in who missed the original deadline helps make that happen. It will continue to gather the momentum of the fans and although it probably won't contribute directly to this game it will help keep this studio afloat. This will be beneficial for the making of adventure games in the long run. So my sentiments for exclusivity are just not strong enough to warrant locking fans out.

Finally, Kickstarter was just the vehicle to get this project the funding it needed. So essentially this KS was over within 8 hours and the other 70.000 fans shouldn't be here =) Most people hadn't even heard of kickstarter before this project launched and a lot of us have gone on since to make significant contributions to other projects like wasteland 2 (which is now at 2million). So I'd argue that this project has done many times more good to KS than it could ever hurt by drip feeding fans in afterwards.

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They should include all the $15 preorder people in the credits too... Why should that be exclusive to the kickstarter $100 tier? Kickstarter's over man. It's a brave new world now!

In fact, I don't even think Double Fine should sell the game, after it's done... I mean - that's lame... Why should the game be exclusive to the people who bought it? It belongs to everyone! Damn selfish elitists, with their money... We'll show them!

Everybody look how noble I am! Aren't I just the greatest?

Not helping. Let me say that it's really hard to take you serious like that!!!

If we wanna discuss this we need to find a way without making fun of each others opinions.

This is not personal. No final decision has been made. And even if for example someone seems to be mean to you, don't let it infect you !!

You're better than this

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I think DF should do 3 things:

1. Make the paypal offer different either in price or in prizes, therefore addressing most concerns

2. Release new info about the game thus focus us on something different

3. Add group therapy as an extra reward to early backers (I'll need one)

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I think DF should do 3 things:

1. Make the paypal offer different either in price or in prizes, therefore addressing most concerns

2. Release new info about the game thus focus us on something different

3. Add group therapy as an extra reward to early backers (I'll need one)

AGREED ;)

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Just wanted to address the whole "people disagreeing with this didn't show up until after Greg thought they had a lot of support."

There's enough people on these forums now that any official thread gets buried under several pages of "That's awesome!!!!" type remarks instantly... then actual discussions start around page 5-7.

I personally didn't notice the thread until it'd hit page 4 or 5 of mostly one-sentence praise. So I don't think those people with their trigger fingers on the forum really represent a proper surveying of backer opinion. I certainly hope they [DF] don't stop reading threads after 4 hours and pages of "Go Double Fine! You rock!" comments on any community question / issue they bring up....

Anyway, feels like there's mostly some consensus here now. Good job!

(Just hope that other Kickstarter's don't start offering "Actually really truly honest exclusive backer forums" to make fun of us. Or maybe DF could make that a higher level on their next Kickstarter.

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