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DF Chris Remo

Episode 2: A Promise of Infinite Possibility

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My biggest gripe about old adventure games is easily missed puzzles or puzzles where the goal isn't clear. In Grim Fandango, there's no way that I can figure out how to jam the elevator if I'm not aware the elevator is supposed to be a puzzle? More adventure games should take a page from the best puzzle games: failure itself should be a hint to the solution (even if it's just dialogue explaining why you're solution wouldn't work). In Portal, if launching yourself from a drop doesn't get you to a ledge you can learn from that. This way you can get closer and closer to the goal with each attempt.

On the topic of adventure game innovation: Curse of Monkey Island simplified the adventure game interface to just use/talk/examine, but even as a kid I wondered why "use" and "talk" weren't combined into "interact". There's never anything you can both talk to and use. You could bind "interact" to left mouse and "examine" to right mouse and you'd have an pretty dang efficient interface! I was glad to see it worked pretty well in the Penumbra games.

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Keep up the good work, Double Fine and 2PP!

This game's going to be so awesome! I'm getting real excited to play it. It's been a while since I've played a game where I've been really invested in the characters and their story. Just from the pitch I'm super intrigued as are most other people here it seems.

And I agree with the comments above that say not to worry too much about what the fans want. The true fans know Tim's work, and we know he'll come up with something spectacular as he always does.

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I LOVE this concept! I know it can turn into a lot of different things but the idea sounds amazing. I would have paid the money just to see these videos. THANK YOU :)

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I really hate puzzles that feel out of place.

Example:

I feel strange about solving a "towers of hanoi" game (for the 10th time) to open a random door.

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Star Ocean: The Second Story?

Wow, you're absolutely right.

Tim might be interested in hearing this, although I really don't think it should matter much. It'll be a completely different game I imagine.

Excellent point. Any similarities don't concern me though. Star Ocean: The Second Story is completely awesome and I'd be very happy if this game came out that good!

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even as a kid I wondered why "use" and "talk" weren't combined into "interact". There's never anything you can both talk to and use. You could bind "interact" to left mouse and "examine" to right mouse and you'd have an pretty dang efficient interface!

Some games played with this distinction. For example, in Full Throttle, you used the talk icon (which was a mouth) to siphon petrol.

The trend has certainly been to simplify interfaces more and more, but at the expense of losing diversity of actions and responses. I think it's nice when your interactions with the world are more nuanced than simply "poke everything".

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The good thing about two characters in different times is that one can represent the old adventure games role (I mean, a funny character with a strong personality like Guybrush) and the other can be more puzzle/strategy role, and at some point both need each other to complete the story.

I don't know if that makes sense haha

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Can you add subtitles on next updates? Because the speech is very fast and that is a problem if english is not your spoken language... :-)

Thanks a lot!

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DF Chris Remo:

Your thread of Excellent Contents hasn't been updated to include Episode 2 -- it's already behind? :(

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Cool episode!

The documentary so far is great. Totally worth the money!

Can't wait for the next eisode!

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Great vid, Love the idea of a coming of age story, this brings so much options. Take a journey into the unknown and see if what you've learned thus far all holds up. Definitely a promise of infinite possibilities.

Just finished Terry Pratchett's coming of age story "Nation". Loved it for the humor, the mystery and the opinions one forms when faced with certain discoveries.

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Puzzles! Puzzles! Puzzles! Puzzles! Puzzles! ..... (on and on) Don't take out the mini-games. Best surprise in any game is coming across an unexpected game within a game. If it is not required as part of the main quest, then so be it. But you increase the value of the game by giving that much more of an experience. Makes spending the mucho dinero on the main game all that much more worth it.

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KEEP THE PUZZLES!!!

We are two people behind this account that played all of Tim's and Ron's games, and we both agreed that the feeling of putting all pieces together and finally solving a puzzle is something unique!

Of course, the second, third, ... time that you play the game it's for the story and characters!

We liked the idea. Looking forward to know how you will develop it!

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What about Loom? Do you not consider it to be an oldschool adventure game?

Since when does Loom not have any puzzles?

It just doesn't have an inventory system, and instead your inventory is music and you use that to interact. And the puzzles in this game were challenging and well designed.

My point was that the kickstarter to bypass publishers is pointless if in the end, the game will be adjusted to mainstream gamers who don't like oldschool brainteasers and caters exactly to what publishers want (because then a publisher would fund it). And I'm sure Tim Schafer is an experienced enough game developer who knows that breaking the flow of a game can be deadly.

The solution to this however, is to design puzzles that make sense, and not just be lazy and remove the puzzles.

"If puzzles stop the flow of the game, then watch a movie. Adventure games are not for you." is what I'd like to tell people with that opinion.

I'd like to assume that the majority of people who backed this are adventure game fans and did enjoy the challenge of solving a puzzle as much as the story and characters of a game. The lack of this enthusiasm for using your brain in the general demographic is what was reflected in recent games, which made idiot proof puzzles that everyone can solve with clicking around a bit, and so tried to please people who hate thinking.

But in the end of the day I can only speak for myself, and how I know that I would be seriously disappointed if this game had no puzzles, so I was a bit baffled by the suggestion to leave out puzzles, as I was under the impression that out of all things that modern adventure games lacked compared to oldschool ones, the biggest was the quality of the puzzles.

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I'm not sure what skipping the puzzles even means, would there be no obstacles what so ever? I think Erik Wolpaw is just trolling a bit here.

Skip the pre-rendered cut scenes instead! They are just a huge waste of effort. Whenever something is scripted: do it in the main game engine. Focus on making the player interaction better instead. I want to play a game, not watch a movie.

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I'm not sure how all this talk about puzzles not being in the game came about. There will be puzzles.

It came from a part in the documentary where it was discussed how important puzzles are in a game, and if they're even necessary. In particular the little talk with the Superbrothers Craig Adams and the co-writer Erik Wolpaw around 11:30, where one of them basically doesn't like puzzles at all and the other said he wouldn't miss puzzles in an adventure game.

Adams was however talking about the specific mechanic of classic inventory puzzles, and as I've mentioned in another post, Loom for example didn't have inventory and was still a great game with great puzzles.

Of course the game will have puzzles in it, it's just the thought of an adventure game even being possible without puzzles got some people, me included, worried for a second, because good and well designed challenging puzzles are what I missed most in recent adventure games, so I was in particular looking forward to those in DFA.

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I'm not sure how all this talk about puzzles not being in the game came about. There will be puzzles.

It came from a part in the documentary where it was discussed how important puzzles are in a game, and if they're even necessary. In particular the little talk with the Superbrothers Craig Adams and the co-writer Erik Wolpaw around 11:30, where one of them basically doesn't like puzzles at all and the other said he wouldn't miss puzzles in an adventure game.

Adams was however talking about the specific mechanic of classic inventory puzzles, and as I've mentioned in another post, Loom for example didn't have inventory and was still a great game with great puzzles.

Of course the game will have puzzles in it, it's just the thought of an adventure game even being possible without puzzles got some people, me included, worried for a second, because good and well designed challenging puzzles are what I missed most in recent adventure games, so I was in particular looking forward to those in DFA.

At 12:34 Tim says leaving puzzles out wouldn't make sense for the game they are making, and later when he talks to Wolpaw he's told to just make one in his old "bad" style. Just trying to figure out if we made some mistake in the editing process that made it unclear.

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Hey DF, please don't feel pressured because we want the game to be the most awesome thing on Earth.

All those videos so far, it was fantastic already. To be fair, I feel like I already got content worth the money. Tim is incredible and a very inspiring person. Just those peaks on his creative process and opinions was well worth it.

This week started not so good for me, but after watching this I gained some courage and will to carry on. Thank you, you guys are the best.

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At 12:34 Tim says leaving puzzles out wouldn't make sense for the game they are making, and later when he talks to Wolpaw he's told to just make one in his old "bad" style. Just trying to figure out if we made some mistake in the editing process that made it unclear.

Oh ok. I think it was just an allergic reaction to "no puzzles" and "adventure game" used in the same context, and in my case that I'm not a native speaker and might have missed that detail. The video was awesome, and this documentation is the most important reason why I backed this, and so far it is amazing. Keep up the good work.

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I'm not sure how all this talk about puzzles not being in the game came about. There will be puzzles.

It came from a part in the documentary where it was discussed how important puzzles are in a game, and if they're even necessary. In particular the little talk with the Superbrothers Craig Adams and the co-writer Erik Wolpaw around 11:30, where one of them basically doesn't like puzzles at all and the other said he wouldn't miss puzzles in an adventure game.

Adams was however talking about the specific mechanic of classic inventory puzzles, and as I've mentioned in another post, Loom for example didn't have inventory and was still a great game with great puzzles.

Of course the game will have puzzles in it, it's just the thought of an adventure game even being possible without puzzles got some people, me included, worried for a second, because good and well designed challenging puzzles are what I missed most in recent adventure games, so I was in particular looking forward to those in DFA.

At 12:34 Tim says leaving puzzles out wouldn't make sense for the game they are making, and later when he talks to Wolpaw he's told to just make one in his old "bad" style. Just trying to figure out if we made some mistake in the editing process that made it unclear.

I, for one, thought it was very clear from the video that the notion of no puzzles was rejected out of hand. Fantastic video!

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@Gins: You should play To the Moon some time. It's like an adventure game without any (well, nearly no) puzzles. Yet I don't think it would work better as a movie at all, it uses the interactive medium well to tell its story!

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@Gins: You should play To the Moon some time. It's like an adventure game without any (well, nearly no) puzzles. Yet I don't think it would work better as a movie at all, it uses the interactive medium well to tell its story!

I'll look at it. I'm not saying that a game without puzzles focusing solely on the experience can't be good per se, I have myself made one like that, but it's not what I'm looking for in a game designed by Tim Schafer, the man who is famous for designing brilliant puzzles. It's like asking Quentin Tarantino to make a romantic comedy.

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I'm not sure how all this talk about puzzles not being in the game came about. There will be puzzles.

It came from a part in the documentary where it was discussed how important puzzles are in a game, and if they're even necessary. In particular the little talk with the Superbrothers Craig Adams and the co-writer Erik Wolpaw around 11:30, where one of them basically doesn't like puzzles at all and the other said he wouldn't miss puzzles in an adventure game.

Adams was however talking about the specific mechanic of classic inventory puzzles, and as I've mentioned in another post, Loom for example didn't have inventory and was still a great game with great puzzles.

Of course the game will have puzzles in it, it's just the thought of an adventure game even being possible without puzzles got some people, me included, worried for a second, because good and well designed challenging puzzles are what I missed most in recent adventure games, so I was in particular looking forward to those in DFA.

At 12:34 Tim says leaving puzzles out wouldn't make sense for the game they are making, and later when he talks to Wolpaw he's told to just make one in his old "bad" style. Just trying to figure out if we made some mistake in the editing process that made it unclear.

I think a few people are just worried (for some reason) that he's talking to people whose own games are sort of a different style and that they're going to have some 'shadowy influence' over the puzzle work for the game. I think it's nonsense. It was clear from your video I thought that he was just putting feelers out, seeing what everyone else was up to. Maybe it could have been a little stronger at the end saying: 'I'm definitely going to be carrying on where I left off in terms of design' or words to that effect, but I got the message, at least.

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This was way more fun to watch then I expect it to be. =)

I'm glad to hear that there will be a girl character. Being a girl, it makes a huge difference to me.

Also its funny to hear that people didn't enjoy the puzzles. Those were always my favorite part!

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